Has a sovereign Palestine ever existed?

reply to post by SectionEight

I don't see where you think I am wrong on all accounts. I said the name Palestine was Roman in origin which it is... I never said that the people living there weren't called Palestinians... and I also specifically said that the Palestinian people includes Jews, Christians and Muslims.

I never discussed the Grand Mufta.

reply to post by grover


Sorry, I was mainly concerned with your period up to 47 statement and your paragraph outlining a solution.

The Palestinians were manipulated through corrupt leadership. They were not displaced like Indians. The ruling authorities brought down every hardship upon the people and never once sought any prosperity.

The solution can only occur with the destruction of the PLO and HAMAS and its infrastucture of hate, they are direct extensions of the power put in place in the seat of the Gran Muffti. Their breeding ground of hate is their vehicle for holding onto power. They will not negotiate it away at some peace table for it would mean their demise.

The Palestinian people have no say in anything and are kept in that willfull state by the mechanisms put in place by the ruling parties. It can be directly compared to Nazi Germany where the people as a whole were guided into fanatical devotion to their leaders, those who dissented didn't last long. There are no dissenters left in Palestine, they were eradicated long ago. There is no other path but the one they are on.

reply to post by SectionEight


Good Post Grover. I completely agree. These poor Palestinian people have been put in this position by Hamas and their ilk before them. Very sad. Comparing them to freedom fighters is such a sad comparison. Considering that they do not want peace, and will not accept peace. A perpetual state of war guaranteeing their existence is what they want.

The Palestinian people have largely been disinfranchized by their own leaders because in part their leaders never have been given any real power to begin with... the Ottomans kept all the power to themselves... the British played the time honored divide and conquor game by playing all sides against the other, especially in the lead up to the 47 partition and the Israelis have never had a real vested interest in any form of Palestinian power block either and the United States as Israel's puppet doesn't either.

Cases in point when Fatwa took over the west bank and gaza they so mismanaged the place and provided so little that it all but guarenteed a Hamas win in the general elections. Why? Because Hamas, like Hezbullah are more than paramilitary "terrorist" organizations... they provide social, economic and medical services to the population as well which is far more than Fatwa ever did.

Besides all of that Israel (and by extension the United States) shot itself in the proverbial foot by refusing to engage Hamas when they won the elections in 06. Like them or not they were chosen by the people and consequently were soverign... by refusing to engage them, terrorist activities or not, we basically gave them a carte blanc to continue as they had, which they did. If we had held our noses and engaged them like a duely elected party, which they were we would have in essence forced them to behave as such and could have possibly gotten them to acknowledge Israel and give up their paramilitary activities and become a truly legitmate political force.

In short arrogance blew it.

what rights do the Palestinians actually have? I am not asking that in a rhetorical sense, but in earnest.

reply to post by johnny2127



Henry Catton of the Arab Higher Committee attempting to explain the Arab arguments and the Zionist position, November 1947

"The zionists claim Palestine on the grounds that at one time, more than two thousand years ago, the Jews had a kingdom in part of it. Were this argument to be taken as the basis for settling international issues, a dislocation of immeasurable magnitude would take place. It would mean the re-drawing of the entire map of the world. It has been said that you cannot set back the hands of the clock of history by twenty years. What should be said when an effort is made to set the clock of history back twenty centuries in an attempt to give away country on the grounds of a transitory historical association?"

We used to think that an historian is a profession detached from politics, not dependent on nationality, race, or religion.
We used to think an historian's most important quality is being objective.

Today we realize an historian is no more than a tobacco company's researcher- Picked out for their ideologies and opinions and paid for by people with those same ideologies and opinions.

What's worse is when you start to think of it you can't really know for sure anything we know about history is really any accurate.

So the biggest problem we have is we know almost nothing about the real history of the middle east, and every question raises more and more questions-
Yes, there has never been an independent Palestinian state, but is that enough?
Who are the "Palestinians"?
Who are their ancestors?
Did they migrate to this land?
How do they differ from Jordanians and Syrians?
How do they differ, if any, from any of the Arabic Jews?
Why didn't Palestine remain a part of Jordan?

The more we look into those periods the more questions arise the more and more people try to explain them through some kind of political goggle..

Personally I'm frustrated, don't know what to think anymore about the history that I know, the history I'm finding out about, one sided researches and political historians..

Before the rise of Moses Palestine was a soveriegn and independant nation. Palestinian soveriegnty was erradicated in 1947.

The real historical question is "has there ever been a sovereign Israel that has not been under the boot or paying tribute to another kingdom?" I don't believe so. If Israel's right to exist is based on the UN charter then they need to go to the borders established. All organizations that fight against Israel are freedom fighters. How can the world even justify the creation of a racist country that openly promotes apartheid?