Discriminating against women, atheists, and those of ill-repute automatically fosters ignorance and a belief in superiority. If the group was so fixated on moral growth, atheism, sex, and even reputation would be non-factors...

First, we don't discriminate against women. Secondly, we restrict atheists because Masons believe in a Supreme Being, which goes completely against the belief system of atheists. We want men of good character so as to not defame the fraternity. This is all quite simple and straightforward.

We are not "fixated" on anything. It's a fraternity - Designed for men of good will to voluntarily associate for fraternal, philanthropic, and charitable purposes.

When was eastern star formed, huh?

1850. Is over 150 years long enough for you?

As to why the organizations are separate, I would only suggest that this has been done historically to minimize friction and increase the cohesiveness of the group. Men of like minds associate in the Lodge, and women of like minds associate in the Easter Star.

This is no different than countless other groups, fraternities, religions, political groups, etc. that associate based on their own mutual interests.

Your avoiding the point...you said masonry was not a religion, yet you have belief requirements. Furthermore, the masonry claims to build moral character, yet subtly discriminates against those of a different belief system...

Since when are fraternities restricted from imposing entrance requirements of prospective members? How else would you go about setting requirements for membership if not based on a particular set of beliefs? (Not to be rude, but who are you to be the ultimate judge and decider as to which set of beliefs Masonry should follow?)

The "belief requirements" are pretty straightforward. A man has to believe in a Supreme Being - regardless of one's religious affiliation. That's it. We're not talking about a long list of "belief requirements" as you put it.

If I want to gain entrance to the Masonry, I have to meet certain criteria. If I don't meet the requirements, then I don't gain entrance. Very simple. This is no different from the countless colleges, professional associations, and virtually any other membership organization.

If others disagree with a particular belief system, they are perfectly welcome to form associations with others of like mind.

Masonry does build character - Both in the degree work, and in the association with other men of good will. You may disagree, but you provide no evidence to the contrary. My evidence is in the written degrees themselves, where Masons are strongly encouraged to live their lives in a moral, upright manner.

Masonry is not a religion. It is, however, a fraternity, and has all the markings of a fraternity: meetings, initiations, charitable work, etc.

In that case, why not just join or create a fraternity that allows access to all?

Because we do not want to defame the fraternity with men of ill will, poor moral character, or criminal tendencies.

Sounds like a template for ladder-climbing and clique based socialisation...

No, it's just the natural progression of how the fraternity gains new members. We don't solicit. We gain membership via word of mouth. This is no different than countless other organizations - churches, for instance. How many kids join the religion of their parents? Most.

Inviting members to expand their morality and then putting restrictions on what defines 'morals' is deceptive imo...actually, I suppose it isn't deceptive...self-deceptive is the more appropriate term for it.

We don't invite people to join Masonry. Solicitation is not permitted, nor is it encouraged. People have to want to join. They know the requirements from the onset - There is no "bait and switch". They would never get initiated if they disagreed with the entrance requirements in the first place.

And the Masonic investigation committee that interviews the candidate BEFORE initiation makes absolutely sure that the applicant for Masonry is in alignment with the requirements - They actually send 3 Masons out to the applicant's house to interview the candidate to make sure that he is joining of his own free will and accord, etc.

i have been in masonry for some time now my only regret is not joining sooner. From a christan stand point its a wonderful organization they tell u up front this is not a church and encourage u to go to church, also orders like the york rite once u get ur royal arch degree u have to have a belif in Jesus in order to progress in the york rite.

"The 'proof' is right in front of you...the indulgent masonry prerequsites. And to your last question, no...

I was going to say "nice way to completely dodge a direct question", but I'll change that to "cheap" or "an inability to answer the direct question". Try again.....

"The 'proof' is right in front of you...the indulgent masonry prerequsites. And to your last question, no... I was going to say "nice way to completely dodge a direct question", but I'll change that to "cheap" or "an inability to answer the direct question". Try again.....

Dude, if you want to join the National Association of Optometrists, they will have pre-requisites for membership. Same thing with attending college. That doesn't make it "indulgent" - It simply means, if you want to join this group, you have to agree to these pre-requisites.

It's not indulgent at all - It's telling you that if you are an atheist, then this probably isn't the group for you. Because we all believe in God. That's no different than joining any Christian church - The pre-requisite for joining may be baptism, for instance, where you agree to certain standards.

Just because you disagree with the standard is not Masonry's problem, nor does the fact that Masonry has this "pre-requisite" for a belief in a Supreme Being necessitate it being a de facto religion. You can have a pre-requisite for a fraternity requiring membership to believe in God without it being a religion.

Incidentally, I am sure you can find plenty of atheistic groups that will cater to your belief system. You could certainly have an atheistic, secular organization that requires its membership to espouse atheistic beliefs as a pre-requisite to joining the group --- all without it being called a "religion".

What is your question, exactly, that you feel I haven't answered? I have been as direct as humanly possible. Perhaps you just don't like my answer - and that's fine. I can assure you, however, that Masonry is not likely to open its doors to atheists, people of low moral character, or criminal elements anytime in the near future.

Originally posted by Freemason Joe
i have been in masonry for some time now my only regret is not joining sooner. From a christan stand point its a wonderful organization they tell u up front this is not a church and encourage u to go to church, also orders like the york rite once u get ur royal arch degree u have to have a belif in Jesus in order to progress in the york rite.

I thought the masons believed in a supreme being not just Jesus? I'm sorry but all you've done here is show the confusion that exists between you and your fellow occultists. Reading the posts from masons I cannot come to any other conclusion than you know as much about freemasons as we anti masons yet you lot are members of this strange cult.
What chance have we outsiders got of understanding what you heathens are all about when your own members seem so confused?

I thought the masons believed in a supreme being not just Jesus? I'm sorry but all you've done here is show the confusion that exists between you and your fellow occultists.

I think you might be the only here that is confused, because I am following this thread's discussion quite easily.

Nevertheless, let me try to clarify. The Lodge requires - as a condition of membership - that one espouses a belief in a Supreme Being. Now, you can call this Supreme Being by the name of God, Hashem ("the name", as used by our Jewish brethren), Allah, the Lord, God Almighty, the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Ghost), etc.

Frankly, Masonry doesn't dictate to you, as a prospective member, what you call this Supreme Being based on your own personal religious beliefs. Masons refer to this Supreme Being, or simply God in Christian terms, as the Grand Architect of the Universe.

It can't be any clearer than that. If you still don't get it, perhaps you might re-read the thread a little more slowly and carefully. It's pretty straightforward.

I suppose, theoretically, you are correct that a Satanist could hold the belief that Satan is the Supreme Being of the Universe, when - based on all Biblical accounts - Satan is not the Supreme Being of the Universe by any stretch.

But, let's play your little game if you like. I guess you are correct, that a misguided Satanist that mistakenly believes that Satan is the Supreme Being could theoretically join Masonry under this misguided belief that he is adhering to the requirement of a "belief in a Supreme Being".

But there are other requirements as well. Such as having the recommendation of at least 2-3 other Brothers that will vouch for the prospective applicant to Masonry.

The applicant also has to undergo a pretty thorough interview in his home, with his wife present (if applicable). I can assure you, that if the Masonic Committee gets a whiff of Satanic belief systems, or sees Satanic worship imagery in the applicant's home, that this will be reported back to the Lodge brethren. You must receive a UNANIMOUS vote from all of the Lodge members present in order to receive the initial initiation degree, Entered Apprentice.

At each degree, you are voted on by all the brethren as to whether you can continue onto the next degree.

You would have to be a pretty darn good actor to get past the Masonic Investigation Committee, 3 unanimous votes for each of the 3 degrees, and recommendations from 2-3 officers for initial admission to the degrees.

Typically, members join because of family or because they know someone active in Masonry. These family members and/or friends vouch for the individual's character. If someone happens to be a Satanist, they would not likely be recommended for Masonry by a family member or a friend. First, because it would make the recommending party look foolish, and secondly, the Lodge is aimed at finding people of like mindedness to keep cohesion and harmony in the Lodge. Satanists would, I imagine, stand out like a sore thumb among a typical group of (primarily Christian) Lodge members.

Is it possible? Yes, I suppose someone could do it. But, a Satanist wouldn't really find much in common with a bunch of - usually Christian Protestant - Masons. He wouldn't find all of the Biblical symbolism and Biblical-related degrees of much interest.

So I guess your "theory" is correct in one sense. In practical reality, it's pure nonsense, but I guess you are entitled to your own opinion, right?

By the way, you could apply your same line of reasoning to just about any other organization as well. Why couldn't a Satanist join the Catholic Church, the K of C, Rotary, Kiwanis, Moose, the Elks, Scientology, or any other group that you can think of?

I guess the logic follows that Satanists could be joining whatever group that they want, right? So what? What does it matter if the same thing could happen to Freemasonry? A Satanist could lie and join any group that he wants.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
By the way, you could apply your same line of reasoning to just about any other organization as well. Why couldn't a Satanist join the Catholic Church, the K of C, Rotary, Kiwanis, Moose, the Elks, Scientology, or any other group that you can think of?

I guess the logic follows that Satanists could be joining whatever group that they want, right? So what? What does it matter if the same thing could happen to Freemasonry? A Satanist could lie and join any group that he wants.

Yes, I readily agree with you. What better place for an evil satanist to hide than within the folds of the catholic church. If one wanted, a satanist could hide his true beliefs and join any cult, brotherhood or religion he so chose. But I've been arguing this for some time and as of yet, you are the only one who agrees with me that this is possible. Most other masons refuse to accept that this is remotely possible which, to me at least, comes off as being egotistic.

I think it's possible, but rare and unlikely. Masons are mostly older men, of Christian upbringing, and of good moral character in general. They are not apt to take a liking to a Satanist that wants to join their ranks. And it only takes a single vote to stop someone from progressing in the degree work, or even starting the degree work. One vote. So, if someone has misgivings about someone, they can easily stop someone in their tracks pretty quickly if they are a voting Master Mason member of the Lodge.

Frankly, as I said earlier, I don't honestly think that Satanists would have much interest in Masonry. If they want to know the ritual, they can read it online. They wouldn't have much fun hanging at the Lodge with a bunch of Christian Masons.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Yes, I readily agree with you. What better place for an evil satanist to hide than within the folds of the catholic church. If one wanted, a satanist could hide his true beliefs and join any cult, brotherhood or religion he so chose. But I've been arguing this for some time and as of yet, you are the only one who agrees with me that this is possible. Most other masons refuse to accept that this is remotely possible which, to me at least, comes off as being egotistic.

Actually, its a question I don't think I've ever seen you ask, which is "Could someone join Masonry under false pretenses?" and, of course, the answer is "Yes."

We take people at their word when they make the oaths, because, well, that's what the oaths are about... being true to your word; your word having meaning, and that meaning forming a bond between you and your brethren. Could people break that bond? Could people have their fingers crossed when they take the oath? Sure. I'm certain its happened before, and there's nothing stopping it from happening again.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Seriously, get real. Until we all decide worldwide who god is, and who he ultimately represents, then anyone from any belief can become a freemason.

Indeed! That's the beauty of Masonry. We're not so bigoted that we're going to say "The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ" no more than we'd say "The only way to Nirvana is through Vishnu" or whathaveyou. As long as we live and breath we can never know the mysteries of God. We won't know whether we're right or wrong until we're dead, so why can't we get together setting aside our religious and political differences and try to do something positive for our community, through charity, etc. while we're alive and can make a difference?

i am a member of the knights templer which is the highest degree givin in the york rite im also my areas rep for the knights templer eye foundation and I can tell you first hand to be apart of that organization unlike the others a believe in Jesus Crist is the only way you can recieve those degrees.

Originally posted by Freemason Joe
i am a member of the knights templer which is the highest degree givin in the york rite im also my areas rep for the knights templer eye foundation and I can tell you first hand to be apart of that organization unlike the others a believe in Jesus Crist is the only way you can recieve those degrees.

This is true. To receive the top three(?) degrees in the York Rite system one must swear to defend the Christian faith above all others. That's actually one of the reasons I haven't joined the York Rite yet. I may go through the Chapter and Council degrees at some point, and stop short of the Commandary. There are actually more side-orders of Masonry with Christianity as a requirement than side-orders of any other specific faith.

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you want information but when someone with first hand experience chimes in you push it aside and discount it. I can see your point of view i've read several posts from some who are clearly misinformed brothers, and some who i really doubt have ever been in a lodge. I am not picking a fight but i do want you to know i want to help and contribute to this site i've been looking through this site for sometime and agree with some of the things said here but not all of it of course. I am showing respect and only ask for the same in return.