The acts of philantrophy done by the masons is to be commended...their claims on building moral integrity, on the other hand...

I guess I would ask you for any legitimate proof that the Masons do NOT, in fact, admonish their members to conduct themselves with moral integrity. Proof, evidence. Not your opinion.

Encouraging members to act with moral integrity is actually written into the Blue Lodge degrees, but more importantly, is taught by example and mentoring on a practical level.

Too bad women and atheists aren't allowed to contribute.

Re-read my posts. Women are encouraged to join Eastern Star, a Masonic organization designed specifically for women.

Atheists are not allowed to contribute because the fraternity holds the belief in a higher Supreme Being. If atheists want to start their own fraternity and set different rules, have at it.

The fact that the masons claim to instil moral values in men, and then put particular prerequisites on that very morality just seems hypocritical to me. It sounds cliqued, pretentious and elitist. To deny access to atheists and women sends out the message that ''we are better than you''.

Masonry is anything but elitist and pretentious. Men don't volunteer their time and energy, and donate their money to philanthropic causes out of pretentiousness. They do so because they are good men.

No one is denying women anything - They can join Eastern Star. Atheists, on the other hand, can go ahead and start their own fraternity if they so choose.

Also, what's this business on having to be heavily reccommended to get in?

Most Masons are recommended to the fraternity by their fathers, or by a close friend. Others approach the Lodge on their own accord, and - after a period of getting to know the individual - various officers of the Lodge will vouch for the applicant.

Also, traditionally, a committee of 3 Brothers will visit the applicant at their home, to make sure that the individual is of good moral character.

I merely see the masonry for what it is; benevolent, but self-indulgent and deceptive.

How exactly is Masonry self-indulgent and "deceptive" as you claim? Do you have any proof? Any evidence? Or are these just your own personal whims based on your personal belief system (atheism) that runs counter to another (belief in God)?

Just because a fraternity has a differing set of beliefs that you do, does not entitle you to make fraudulent claims that the fraternity is "self-indulgent" and "deceptive".

There is no deception in Freemasonry. The rituals are public information. Anyone wary of joining is perfectly entitled to read the rituals themselves before joining. No deception there.

Anyone that joins does so of their own free will and accord. There is no one forcing anyone to join, and we do NOT solicit new members. You will never find a Mason knocking on your door asking you to join.

We must be gouging our members then, right? Hardly. Our yearly dues are less than a nice dinner out on the town - about $80 per year - very affordable.

So how exactly is the fraternity deceptive? What is it that we are deceiving people into? We are open about our rituals, we don't solicit new members or force anyone to join, and we don't charge ridiculous dues.

My advice to the thread starter remains the same; if you want to be a philantropist, or if you want to expand your moral compass, there are better ways to do that than joining the masonry. Again, all my opinion, but you can bet your eggs that's worth a lot.

My advice to the original poster is to ignore atheists on conspiracy forums that don't know one iota about Freemasonry. Start by visiting your local Lodge, and make your own decisions about what you think about the fraternity.

If you join, you can be assured that you will be in the company of good men of strong character, civic-minded, of good report, respectful of your political and religious leanings, and charitable. You will, in all likelihood, get to meet some of the more outstanding leaders in your community, and become lifelong friends with your Lodge brothers.

VergeofObscene: Without meaning to be deliberately abrasive, why should the fraternity cease being a deistic organisation just to suit your sensibilities?

Their requirements are that one believes in a Creator, as it is in line with the rest of their values.

If one does not believe in a Creator, then obviously Freemasonry is not appropriate for that person.

I'm sure there are plenty of groups for atheists out there, eh...

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
You know perfectly well that in some of the more high brow professions, law, the police, politics, etc, you simply cannot climb the promotion ladder unless you belong to a lodge. My own father became a victim of this descrimination.

We've been back and forth on this over 2 or 3 threads, for numerous pages of posts. We're not getting anywhere, but I think part of that may be a matter of context. Most of the Masons replying here are American, and not even particularly "small town America". You are, if I recall correctly, in the UK? By wikipedia's info, the Liverpool metropolitan area has a population of a bit over 1 million people. The city I live in has a population more than 5 times that. The scale is different, and it really does work differently.

So while it may be true where you live that all the lawyers, judges, police, or whathaveyou must be Masons to progress, that's certainly not the case everywhere.

That's why we're never going to be able to resolve this point of conflict with you. Your truth will never be the same as my truth. It can't be, because we're on different sides of the globe, living and working under entirely different political and social foundations.

So when I say that Masonry has nothing to do with climbing the ladder in business and politics, that's absolutely true where I live. I'm not lying to you. Neither are the other Masons here. But your own experience may show you different. You're not lying either. It's just a matter of putting either point of view into the proper frame of reference.

Originally posted by VergeofObscene


It's STILL technichally a males only club, the female branches of masonry came long after the original male-only ones, I'm sure...

Freemasonry is a fraternity, which literally means "brotherhood". In like manner, the word "sorority" literally means "sisterhood".

Ahh, but the boy scouts do not require one to believe in a higher spiritual being for them to join.

They most certainly do. The religious requirements of the Boy Scouts are identical to Freemasonry, i.e., belief in the existence of a Supreme Being.

You know perfectly well that in some of the more high brow professions, law, the police, politics, etc, you simply cannot climb the promotion ladder unless you belong to a lodge. My own father became a victim of this descrimination.

I think, however, that you could make the same claim for many other organizations. If my boss, and my co-worker go to the same church, then he has the upper edge for obtaining a promotion than I do. You could also make the same claim for any church, fraternity, political organization, charity, etc.

Anywhere there is close, regular contact with managers and subordinates outside the workplace that leads to trust, friendship, and a good working relationship, then that parlays in the favor of the subordinate being promoted over others outside of the "group" so to speak.

When you join a Lodge, you do become close friends with your Lodge Brothers, and you do establish long-term relationships if you stay involved and active in the Lodge.

While I am sorry to hear about your father, I would only suggest to you that this occurs outside of the Lodge whenever there is a scenario of boss-subordinates having similar affiliations. In America, you could definitely make the same argument for our country clubs here. Golf is a huge business here, and people that golf together tend to do business with each other. Same thing with promotions - Golfing buddies tend to look out for each other.

With that being said, I find it funny that Freemasonry gets blackballed for this kind of cronyism. In America, I see this kind of cronyism in all kinds of places outside the workplace besides the Lodge - I see it in country clubs, business networking groups, churches, other fraternities, college fraternities, etc. Maybe it's more prevalent in certain professions in Europe - like law, police, etc. as you mention. But, believe me, Freemasonry isn't the only organization that has members giving preference to each other.

I also can honestly say that I have never received a single business promotion or favor based on my association with the Lodge. In fact, people that join the Lodge for business reasons or to "get ahead" are actually frowned upon in the States. We see a lot of "Financial Advisors" that want to join the Lodge because they want to build their clientele. Older Masons that have been around awhile can spot genuine interest in Freemasonry versus ladder climbers a mile away.

And those that only want to use Freemasonry to enhance their social status usually don't stick around very long. They tend to leave after they realize that Freemasonry is not at all about climbing a social ladder, but about philanthropy, fraternal bonds, and the initiation rituals. They tend to get bored and drop out after awhile.

I believe Clinton for instance was involved even though it was at a low level. The Bush family where certainly in the masons (?) and who knows about Obama?

Clinton was in DeMolay as a kid, and never had any association with Freemasonry thereafter. The Bush's - George Sr. and George Jr. - were involved in the Skull and Bones Society at Yale - Not Freemasonry. As far as Obama, he has no known public association with Freemasonry as far as I can tell.

but what I am saying is those who are actively trying to control it have passed through a lodge at some point.

Well, most people in positions of power in the West have spent more time going to church on Sunday then they have going to the Lodge. Most people in power spend more time at their local country club playing golf and drinking beer then they do attending Lodge.

Most politicians in the USA don't have much involvement in Freemasonry like politicians of decades past used to, because they don't have or make the time to devote to the Craft.

The world is changing, and men are less interested in going to a business meeting at their local Masonic Lodge, then they are in playing Nintendo and watching TIVO.

Maybe they disappear because someone from the Illuminati recognises that they could be important in the future and moves them on to help the NWO achieve its aims? I have been saying all along that the lodges may be hunting grounds for the elite to cherry pick up and coming businessmen, politicians, etc, which may prove influential in the future. What you're saying could be interpreted as proving my point.

Humorous, yes. Here's reality: Joe Financial Advisor, 22-30 years old, just earned his license (insurance, securities, real estate, whatever), and reads that he should join the Masons to build his clientele. He doesn't really want to join, he just wants more clients. He joins the Lodge - maybe even sticks around long enough to get his Master Mason degree - then drops out. He may pay his dues every year, but that's about it. He doesn't attend the meetings, only rarely.

The real die-hard Freemasons at your local Lodge comprise maybe 5-10% of the total population that belong to that particular Lodge - at least that's what I have found based on my current jurisdiction. These are the guys that know the ritual, attend every meeting, belong to multiple masonic groups - They are the die-hards.

The only people that would ever qualify as being NWO agents, or "Illuminati" are the die-hards that have been around for decades and have risen up through the ranks. Why? They have proven their loyalty.

The newbies that drop out are NOT qualified to become Illuminati, or NWO agents. Too young, and haven't paid their dues.

Now, that's also giving you the benefit of the doubt that an Illuminati exists. I have never seen any proof that it does in the Masonic fraternity, but I can tell you - the low-level newbies are most definitely not going to be NWO agents or "Illuminati" as you call it. They are too disloyal, and aren't ingrained in the Masonic fraternity enough to be trusted with anything.

But Isn't it meant to be a secret? I thought that was one of the main rules of masonry that you don't tell anyone you're a mason and you certainly don't tell anyone the secrets. . . What you seem to be implying is that the freemasons lodge head, I forget his name, would now openly reveal someone as a mason as long as it benefitted the brotherhood. How bizarre. . !

The only secrets forbidden are certain signs and a token (password). The rest of the ritual is public - Heck, even the signs and passwords are public knowledge if anyone wants to do the research or look online.

There are no rules or restrictions about disclosing your Masonic affiliation.

And the head of a Lodge - a Worshipful Master - doesn't "out" a brother Mason to the public by calling his local newspaper. That just doesn't happen. First, there is no benefit to the fraternity, and secondly, it serves no purpose.

The fraternity does give accolades to members that have risen to prominence - especially big industrialists and politicians (Ford, Edison, George Washington, etc.). This is not done to "out" the Mason to the public, but is done in recognition of their achievements. It is not a negative chastisement, but a positive endorsement of the individual and their achievements.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

But Isn't it meant to be a secret?
I thought that was one of the main rules of masonry that you don't tell anyone you're a mason and you certainly don't tell anyone the secrets. . . What you seem to be implying is that the freemasons lodge head, I forget his name, would now openly reveal someone as a mason as long as it benefitted the brotherhood. How bizarre. . !

It has never been a rule to keep membership secret. Masons are proud to be Masons, and on practically any Masonic website, you'll find the "famous Masons" list.

Originally posted by VergeofObscene

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
I guess I would ask you for any legitimate proof that the Masons do NOT, in fact, admonish their members to conduct themselves with moral integrity. Proof, evidence. Not your opinion.

Discriminating against women, atheists, and those of ill-repute automatically fosters ignorance and a belief in superiority. If the group was so fixated on moral growth, atheism, sex, and even reputation would be non-factors...

It's not ill-repute, it's convicted felons. ie, they've probably already shown issues with morality to some degree. (since legality and morality is so closely tied together in this country, for better or worse)

I am a homosexual as well as a quasi-atheist, so I find this quite disturbing. And this was founded masons? Dare I ask if homsexuals are allowed entry into the masonry? Doesn't look good...

There are a number of gay brothers in my lodge, including past officers. I think there would probably be issues if someone who was transgendered tried to join, but gay males? no problem at all.