Why is southern pride considered racism?

reply to post by Byrd
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In no way is this the only symbol of the south that gives me pride. I like you and most of the rest of southerners are appalled with slavery. The fact that we took people from the homes and made them work for food and shelter is horrible. But never the less the flag is one of symbol of the south’s unity in the confederacy. I merely used it as an example and it manifested itself to be the only thing I see pride in on this thread.

Like you the fact that most southerners our generally nice people and will help you with what ever you need whether they know you are not. Is something I am very proud to be apart of. The fact that out families tend to remain close is another reason. Just being southern is good enough for me. Like I said it is not the only symbol that gives me pride, but I like it as a choice to show my pride should I choose to.

OK, I have to ask. Are all of you southerners going to be eating black eyed peas tomorrow? After all, that's a tradition that comes from the south and it's supposed to bring you good luck for the new year.

My families roots are in the south but I'm a Southern California southerner who carries on the tradition of making yummy black eyed peas every New Years Day.

Jemison

I hear you on this one. I am from Texas myself and have a healthy dose of Southern Pride. But like you I have friends who are Northerners, I also have friends of many different colors.

For me Southern Pride means pride at the fact that the South has a very unique culture and history. And that's something that can be shared not just by white people. It also means state's rights and the fight for freedom. All those southerners believed that the government of the time was oppressive and that it was up to them to start another one.

I found that the book "The South Was Right" by James Ronald Kennedy and Walter Donald Kennedy helped to stratify a lot of why Southern Pride is considered racist.

yes those damn yankees Welcome to ATS. Yes it is true that the south would not be the south if it wasn't for the many different cultures. But I just wish a lot of people would get off of the whole racism issue. It's not just in the south it is every where. Now come on down all yankees and have a good time, just remeber to go back home.

Having been to the South many times, and my best friend being from the South, I can attest to the wonderful attitude, character, environment, etc. I agree wholeheartedly that States rights should be preeminent - we should, as citizens of each state, be able to "be the guides of our own lives".

That being said, the problem I PERSONALLY, myself, have with the Confederate Flag is that it is the flag of a defeated enemy of the United States - just like the Nazi flag, the Japanese Rising Sun, etc etc. As such, I feel it should not be flown over City, State or Federal government buildings. If you want to fly one on your own - by all means enjoy - this is still America...

This is an issue that just kills me simply cause of my situation.

I spent the first 6 years of my life in West Virginia which is where most of my relatives are from (also, Tennessee and North Carolina). As I moved alot in my life I've also lived up North, this issue divides me.

For one, alot of my relatives see the flag as a symbol of southern pride, and alot of people I've known see it as a symbol of a "country" that oppressed their people.

The problem is no one can control this image. Whether it is good or bad, it has been used honorable leading battle charges, and dishonorably during the era of Jim Crow.

The "current" American flag has been used during the genocides of Cambodia and the overthrow of various democracies, and for charity and Aids relief and massive numbers of good deeds as well.

It seems the problem with all flags is that we can't pick and choose how people perceive them. When we fly a flag, perhaps the responsibility is not on the people who see it to understand us, but on us to be aware that we are accepting both the good and the bad that goes with the image. That what we fly is neither a holy image of perfection nor a tainted image of evil...but somewhere in the middle that relates to us a little different cause of the way our lives have unfolded and if other people don't understand that, that's okay.

That came across kinda pretentious, and probably didn't really add anything to the discussion....wow I probably just wasted 1-3 minutes of all who read these posts...

reply to tothetenthpower and redhead57

"Whether or not they were treated "well" doesn't make a difference, it was salvery...pure and simple. Just cause you treat them well doesn't give you an excuse to have them."

**** I didn't say that I thought slavery was a great thing. Fact is that they were here; they had not been ordered. The plantation owners were conned into buying them. So instead of just turning them loose, they were put to work. There was no welfare in those days, and these African Natives were in a bad way, being strangers in a strange land. What were they to do? What would you have done with them?

davion, you too need to learn more about that Civil War. After the war the Southern states were greatly oppressed by the North. Sherman burned Atlanta after its surrender - for Why?

"When he entered Atlanta, Sherman issued an order requiring all the people to leave within five days. Hood protested against this order, and the mayor and council of Atlanta appealed to Sherman to withdraw it, pointing out that most of the inhabitants were women and children, who would suffer greatly if compelled to leave their homes. To this Sherman replied, "I have read it [the petition] carefully, and give full credit to your statements of the distress that will be occasioned, and yet shall not revoke my orders, because they were not designed to meet the humanities of the case." When all preparations for the southward march had been made and the people had been forced to depart, Sherman burned Atlanta to the ground."
Atlanta

As to the formation of the KKK and the lynchings - you need to research that too. While you are doing that, also research "carpet baggers". You will learn the reasons for the lynchings and the segregation.

Here is more on the tariff laws:

tarrif

After the 1828 tariff law, the South almost seceded. In 1840, the South paid 84% of the tariffs, rising to 87% in 1860. They paid 83% of the $13 million federal fishing bounties paid to New England fishermen, and also paid $35 million to Northern shipping interests which had a monopoly on shipping from Southern ports. The South, in effect, was paying tribute to the North. The Republican platform of 1860 called for higher tariffs; that was implemented by the new Congress in the Morill tariff of March 1861, signed by President Buchanan before Lincoln took the oath of office. It imposed the highest tariffs in US history, with over a 50% duty on iron products and 25% on clothing; rates averaged 47%. Note the close proximity of this tariff to the start of the war on April 12. Cause and effect."

Here is an article showing more of Northern opression of the South.
Keep in mind that there was no Haliburton to do reconstruciton. They were on their own. Near the end of the article it talks about the freight taxes that were not repealed until the 1940's.

"At war's end, the South lay prostrate. Nearly one of every four white men in uniform had been killed or died in service. Many more were maimed. Cities, industries, and railroads had been burned and dismantled. Rich farming regions.. had been laid waste by Northern armies..."

aftermath

All that, and we get beat up for having pride in our Southern symbols.

[edit on 31-12-2008 by OhZone]

this is just another weak thread that serves no purpose than to stir up old, irrtational emotions that deserve a peaceful and permanent death. Point - how many african-americans fly the confederate flag on holidays or even attend confederate festivals - NONE, and anyone but a moron knows why. And if slavery was such a good thing, why aren't there no white people whatsoever volunteering to be slaves? Duh?

when there is a group of white southerners whose platform is for THEM to become slaves then everyone can take this thread seriously. Otherwise, this thread is nothing more than flippant, sarcastic, dishonest noise.

reply to post by OhZone



I haven't talked about the Civil War.

I'm not even talking about the period directly after the Civil War, I'm talking about the early 1900s and through the 1970s during the civil rights movement. Not a peep from the South about that.

You can apparently blather on about the Civil War but I noticed you failed to address why the South kept its and mouth shut and didn't stand up to segregation and human rights then, even though all I've heard from Southerners in this thread is that the Confederate symbols stand for rebellion and going against oppression. Apparently the South can stand up and fight when its losing money in the 1800s but it can't stand up and fight for human rights once slavery had ended and "separate but equal" was instated.

But that doesn't surprise me, and it doesn't surprise me that you haven't addressed what I've actually been talking about.

[edit on 31-12-2008 by davion]

reply to post by Jemison


Yes.

My goodness, one of my favorite things to eat is a good black-eye pea salad!

Originally posted by havanaja
when there is a group of white southerners whose platform is for THEM to become slaves then everyone can take this thread seriously. Otherwise, this thread is nothing more than flippant, sarcastic, dishonest noise.

Many of our ancestors came here as slaves.
Google 'white indentured servitude.
Never mind, I'll do it for you;
indentured servants and colonial America

In theory, the person is only selling his or her labor. In practice, however, indentured servants were basically slaves and the courts enforced the laws that made it so. The treatment of the servant was harsh and often brutal. In fact, the Virginia Colony prescribed "bodily punishment for not heeding the commands of the master." (Ballagh, 45) Half the servants died in the first two years. As a result of this type of treatment, runaways were frequent. The courts realized this was a problem and started to demand that everyone have identification and travel papers. (A.E. Smith 264-270).

reply to post by Ant4AU


Wow, some folks just love to live in the past.

Rev. Wright isn't a racist? Or Al Sharpton? (Remember Tawana Brawely?,Laying that at white folks feet was purely racist)

Clearly we are all a little "racist" at some time or another otherwise we wouldn't hold out our differences as a tool when trying to prevail in any given argument or situation.

I feel a sense of panic by those that wish to profit from racism, while those that have always been accused of being racist may find a new voice.

reply to post by Ant4AU


I am with you brother! The War of Northern Aggression was not by any means about slavery. that is a fallacy that is taught in schools because the victors in any war write the history of that war. The war was over the rights of the individual States, ans opposed to the States being governed by Washington. I have always said the Confederacy should have freed the slaves before firing in Ft. Sumter. I remember as a child being taught to hate Yankees by my grandparents, my family lost all their money and property in that war. And, we are soon to see it all over again if Washington keeps up with their crap, and keeps trying to oppress our freedoms. Perhaps this time around it will be peaceful, and not bloody. The Confederacy will rise again, folks, and this time it will begin with a northern State, I'll wager.

reply to post by davion


I will reply to you Davion. I agree the south should have handled desegregation better than it did. But in the defense of the south. The south was a region that were raised to think less of the African Americans. Now I agree as far as I am concerned segregation was as bad as slavery, but a dramatic mass change will never go over easily. These people again were forced to do something that they did not feel was right. Even if it was for the betterment of mankind. Was it right for them to hold on so dearly to segregation, no it wasn’t but they did, and there is nothing we can do about that now. SonofChoas said it, we just all need to realize that there is good and bad with all of the symbols we use and should think before we judge.

[edit on 1-1-2009 by Ant4AU]

you need to know that you are more unique than just a "southerner". It is a great pride to know that you are an un-lable-able soul.

reply to post by Ant4AU


I'm from the west, Utah to be exact, so I'm only familiar with the whole racism thing from what I was taught in school.

I don't think it should be a problem anymore if you fly a confederate flag. I mean I understand the whole ideology on the sins of our fathers become the sins of our sons deal but there is nothing in there about grandsons and great grandsons. There has to be a stopping point somewhere in the progeny line, so why not here and now? We just elected Mr. Obama which is a significant step forward.

Mrs. Parks sat so Dr. King could walk, Dr. King walked so Mr. Obama could run, now Obamas just gotta land on his feet and keep running forward.

Fly the rebel flag and play Lynard Skynard, just don't try to talk to me when free bird hits the airwaves because I get in a zone.

I agree with Ron Paul;

The Civil War was unnecessary and it didn't start over slavery.

At the time of the Civil war, slavery was more expense than hiring the droves of starving Irish that were flocking to America at the time - You didn't have to feed, house or cloth the Irish.

When they were still enslaving Irish (200 years before civil war, and IN AMERICA) a trio of Irishmen could be purchased for the same price as an African.

Slavery had ended almost everywhere else in the as it was starting to become a losing business at the time of the civil war. Thank Industrialization for that.

We have the same phenomenon here in Sweden..
We got many arabs in many people from the middle-east migrating here...
we got "natinalists" "patriots" and whatever you want to call them here that don't like that there are so many imigrants...

but most of them are not racists by that.. They don't hate the imigrants they simply are afraid that their "culture" and their country will be lost..

many of the imigtants say that these people are racists and Nazis and things like that... when from the beggining they weren't even close to that...

in the 80's I think it was, we had a style here. Think its called "skinheads"
They are bald and often wear leatherboots and bomberjackets... Many patriots and ofcourse other people not only people of swedish origin, but still white people, used this style... So it had nothing to do with patrocism or anything from the beggining..

This style became socialy unaccepted later.. and even our own government called these people Nazis..

I have no idea why people would be able to call me racist and kick me down to the ground if I walked through an suburban Area wearing clothes like that. Perhaps I'm a fotball-game or something with the Swedish flag in my hand, singing the national-anthem..
But they kicking me down or saying that I am a nazi or racist would surely be the outcome..

I am very intrigued by this strange phenomenon which I think all go back to our biggest social problem today, which I think is..



"THE LACK OF INFORMATION "SLASH" EDUCATION"

If you know what I mean...




(Sorry for any miss-spellings or things you might find..
read carefully and you will hopefully understand something out of it

hehe)

reply to post by Jemison


you better believe it. i cooked blackeyed peas with ham and cornbread this morning.
delicious. it's been a family tradition since forever.
we've been consistently superstitious year after year.