Occultism is not Satanism

reply to post by tgambill


"God is a male figure as he is spirit but he came down as male. He commands that man is head of household and spiritual leader but man has not fullfilled that command."

And you got this information from where?


"We are four dimensional beings, incapable of creating and we can't even destroy."

Ok, when did we jump dimensions? Last time I knew, we were 3rd dimensional beings working on the 4th dimensional concepts of opening the heart. We`re not there yet, maybe close. And we can`t create? We create things everyday with our thoughts. When did we stop having thoughts? Also, tell that to people who invent. It starts as a thought, and builds from there.

"We can only change the shape of what is already created."

So, there was something like a lightbulb before it was invented? Please, tell me what it was.


"We create in our measly four dimensional world from elements and materials already created we just change the shape and composition by using forces already created."

Wow, we see in 3d, but yet live in a 4d reality or world. As I said above, we`re not quite to that 4d level yet, but we`re gaining.


"Man never has and never will create a universe"

You may be right there, but we sure have co-created within it.

"Satan has formulated other religions to lead man from the truth and salvation that Jesus Christ died and rose again for."

And you know this is so because? Let`s see, many of them believe in one creator just like you, so...that makes them wrong?

"Its like a famous Atheist said..."All religions can be false, but only one can be true". He was right...and the true one is not a religion, as Jesus didn't come down to bring religion he brought salvation and soon to bring judgment. religion is man's and Satans invention to control and mislead man"

If "ALL" religions can be false, that doesn`t leave any that can be true. Not if they`re all false. You are right about Jesus not coming down to bring religion. But, he will not judge us either. We will judge ourselves. Even Jesus taught that. What do you think he was talking about, when he said, we must forgive ourselves? In other words, we forgive ourselves for what we have done, no one else will judge us for it.


"So called Christians that look down upon others are called hypocrites and will be judged by God as such."

Well, I don`t see it as God judging them, they may come to understand, that trying to control, or stop one from using his/her own free will goes against universal laws, and will need to pay that debit back in some form or way.

God speaks to us in dreams and so does Satan. The Bible helps us to determine where the inspiration is coming from.

"That is not what Jesus said. I quoted him on the previous page if you want to read it again. And again, there is NOTHING in the Bible about the rapture. The concept of rapture came about in the 1800's and did not exist before then. Your own statements do not pass your "litmus test."

*****Wrong. The Rapture is mentioned in the Old Testament about two times and it is also mentioned in the New Testament.

Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture

The Unknown Hour
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.


The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it’s time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).


What They Didn't Teach You in History Class
Many groups try to discredit the pre-trib rapture by saying most of the end-time events in the Bible have already taken place. A group of people called preterists claims that the Book of Revelation was mostly fulfilled by 70 AD. If the events described in the Book of Revelation took place in the past, I’m at a loss to explain some of the current situations I see around us: the rebirth of Israel, the reunification of Europe, the number of global wars that have occurred, and the development of nuclear weapons. During history class, I must have slept through the part where the teacher talked about the time when a third of the trees were burned up, 100-pound hailstones fell from the sky, and the sea turned into blood (Rev 8:7-8, 16:21). I think several people would have to question their opposition to the pre-trib rapture doctrine if they knew that the evidence provided to them was based on the understanding that most tribulation prophecies have already occurred.

The People of the Millennium
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? Only the pre-trib viewpoint can account for this post-trib problem. The Church is raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this seven-year time frame, and those who make it through the tribulation go into the millennium while the unsaved are cast into hell.


The Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?

"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.

Armies in Fine Linen
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army’s members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean. In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.


The Time of Jacob's Trouble
In several passages, the Bible refers to the tribulation as a time of trouble for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's trouble" pertains to the descendants of Jacob. Jeremiah 30:7 says that this time of trouble will come just before the Lord returns to save His people. The final week of Daniel's 70th week is yet to take place. An angel told Daniel that, "70 weeks are determined unto thy people" (Dan 9:24). Scripture never mentions that the tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. However, some post-tribbers try to claim that they are the ones being tested during the tribulation. To make this so, they need to spiritualize the 144,000 Jewish believers in Revelation 7:2-8 who receive God's protective seal. Placing the Church dispensation into the same time frame as the seven-year Jewish dispensation, as the post-tribbers do, raises one good question: Can two dispensations transpire at the same time? In the past, God has only dealt with one at a time. Having both present during the tribulation would have to be an exception.


”He” That is Taken Out of the Way
Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church.

War or Rapture
(Rev 19:19-21) When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be coming for battle. For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be strange to meet your Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle. The idea that war and rapture could occur together is difficult to imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment.



The Five Foolish Virgins
The wedding story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13, I believe, is a parable of the rapture of the Church. It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven. Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they'll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels.



God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died--both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.



The Salt of the Earth
Jesus said, "Ye are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13). When the believers are supenly removed, the earth will be plunged into spiritual darkness. When this happens, the Antichrist will then be free to control the world.



God Takes an Inventory
In Revelation 7:3, an angel descends to earth and seals the servants of God. Two bits of information about this sealing highly disclaim a post-trib viewpoint. The first item is the number of people sealed: 144,000. The second one is that all those who are sealed are from the 12 tribes of Israel. For the events in Revelation 7:3-8 to be true in a post-trib interpretation, either the Church has turned against God or God has turned against the Church. A post-tribber could write a thousand-word commentary about why the Church doesn't need to be sealed. Instead of trying to argue about why the Church is not mentioned or sealed, a pre-trib proponent could just say, "We're already in heaven."



Noah and Lot as Examples
The tribulation period is compared to the times of Noah and Lot by Jesus in Luke 17:28. Most people argue over whether the time frame Jesus was talking about in that passage was pre-trib or post-trib. In doing so, they miss an important point. The two circumstances that the Noah and Lot situations have in common are the removal of the righteous and the judgment of the unbelievers. From these two accounts, we see that God prefers to remove His own when danger is involved.

Common-Sense Reasons for Believing in the Pretribulation Rapture
The World Test
One way to check the soundness of a doctrine is to see how the world reacts to it. One company put out a questionnaire that was used to screen prospective employees. One of the questions was, "Do you believe in the rapture?" If you answered “yes,” your chances of getting hired would not be good. Some internet sites do not allow the topics of Rapture or Second Coming. They do allow topics such as sex, gays, and drugs. The only time the news media mentions the rapture is when someone sets a date and is proven to be wrong.



That Old-Time Religion
It used to be a rule of thumb that when one was visiting a church or listening to a preacher, one could assume the preacher believed in repentance, prayer, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost if he taught the rapture doctrine. It was also true that the churches on fire for God worshipped out of storefronts. Today, many of those storefront churches have moved into marble palaces and have strayed from their principal doctrines.



Birds of a Feather Flock Together
Whenever I look at all the groups that teach false doctrine and are highly focused on end-time events, I cannot find any that support the rapture theory. Some organizations, the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, teach a false gospel and are heavily into Bible prophecy. Why, then, don't Jehovah's Witnesses teach a false doctrine that would be right up their alley? Could it be that the demonic forces that influence these groups know something that Christians opposed to the rapture don't know? The list of prophetically minded cults that reject the idea of a rapture goes on and on. Here are some more: the Mormons, the Worldwide Church of God and the Moonies, as well as leaders like Jim Jones and David Koresh.



The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist
If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches. Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.




We should all remember one thing: Knowing the Antichrist's mother's maiden name isn't the primary goal. Knowing Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and having your name written in the Lamb's Book of Life should be your number-one priority. The jailer asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" The answer was, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:30-31).

Not funny, its fact...New Age Movement brings the New World Order, and the New Age Religion based on a Luciferian theology.

Originally posted by tgambill
God speaks to us in dreams and so does Satan. The Bible helps us to determine where the inspiration is coming from.

I agree God speaks to us in dreams, beings God is within all of us. As for Satan, I can`t speak for him beings I don`t believe in him. I think he was created by man, so man would not have to take responsibility for his own actions. More or less a scape goat. Some people are still that way today.

if jesus was persecuted by those who disapproved of him being the retainer of what is now deemed occult knowledge then how is one to know what they are taught now from the same group of people who have taken his name that the mystery being revealed is of truth.so to say what jesus knew; further:and can be leaned by someone who chooses to seek away from some retainer of what one feels is the truth others are seeking is satansm sounds like whatever the retainers held true has been infiltrated.

"Let's see. You're using a computer right now. Did the Bible bring us the wisdom to create it?"

****Science only gives us what the secular world can understand and develop. All will see the beheading of the witnesses and their bodies displayed. Now, how did they know that back then? Its called prophesy. Designing a computer will be childs play in the next eternal state after the rapture. This is artificial means of communication primative to the world yet to come.

"You probably also have electrical lighting. Did Thomas Edison use the Bible to invent the light bulb?"

****Nope and Thomas Edision didn't invent the Bulb. He was a crook who worked for Nicoli Tesla. Tesla, Serbian invented the bulb. JP Morgan, evil individual stole the idea and Tesla's assistant took credit for its design. Another lie. google this and be shocked. Our history books are full of fabrications.

"Do you have a car? (Science) Do you work somewhere (that also uses technology? -- Science)?"

******Science on a fourth dimensional level, is one monkey teaching another one how to peel a banana. Then along comes Gates to explain to both monkey's how to build the next generations computer and expect it done by the two monkey's.......now we have an example.

"I could go on and on. All of these things gifts of science. What do we have to show for the Bible? Bigotry, ignorance, people killing each other for hundreds of years. I could go on and on here, too."

*****Not the Bible...its man's desire to distort and rewrite the truth. simple

If you don't know that Satan also exists, then you must think that God is a liar. The Bible clearly talks about the dragon, Satan, Lucifer, and many other names of Satan and his demons. Not believing doesn't make Satan disappear......

"If "ALL" religions can be false, that doesn`t leave any that can be true. Not if they`re all false. You are right about Jesus not coming down to bring religion. But, he will not judge us either. We will judge ourselves. Even Jesus taught that. What do you think he was talking about, when he said, we must forgive ourselves? In other words, we forgive ourselves for what we have done, no one else will judge us for it."

****In all due respect, you nor I call the shots. God will judge as he promises he will. Our denial does not make it change.......

while i agree all those inventions came from acute knowledge of what is now labeled occult; to disrespect the people of the bible who were men of renown like tesla is foolish.when the people who disagreed with jesus outspoken ways who are still preaching to disuade even in his name are gone; you will have to deal with the truths of life u dont face that are bitter and cold; like true satanism and luciferianism.

reply to post by tgambill


"Why is it that these people who can only quote verses from the bible, never express their own thoughts or ideas?"

"****Because Satan influences and inspires thoughts and feelings when one does not have the power of the Holy Spirit in them."

So, does that mean there are times you do not have the holy spirit in you? I ask, because I noticed that you quote the Bible quite often.


"I for one, don`t give Satan any power, because I don`t believe in him and give him the power that you do. You and those of like mind give him the power that he has, so don`t blame others for the things you create."

"****Satan gets his power in three ways. First he convinces mankind he does not exist. This gives him power by presenting his symbols, his agenda to lead man from Jesus which is the main purpose anyway. We don't create this, we bring to light his deceptions. Secondly he has Satan worshippers believing in Satan, evil and cunning, ugly and powerful. Another lie. Third, he convinces people that he is Lucifer, angel of light and wisdom and peaceful.....which is the Illuminati and another lie."

So why give him any power at all? You give him power and a life just by telling yourself he exists and can do the things you say he does.. So why do that? You make him real, I don`t.

all in all what was once occult knowlede is american epiphany that lessens the need to keep hidden truths that were to be retaind by retainers of men qualified to be aware of truths such as "edited" and deeper mysteries.

Originally posted by tgambill
If you don't know that Satan also exists, then you must think that God is a liar. The Bible clearly talks about the dragon, Satan, Lucifer, and many other names of Satan and his demons. Not believing doesn't make Satan disappear......

That`s fine, he can be in your reality then. I make no room in mine for him.

Originally posted by tgambill
"If "ALL" religions can be false, that doesn`t leave any that can be true. Not if they`re all false. You are right about Jesus not coming down to bring religion. But, he will not judge us either. We will judge ourselves. Even Jesus taught that. What do you think he was talking about, when he said, we must forgive ourselves? In other words, we forgive ourselves for what we have done, no one else will judge us for it."

****In all due respect, you nor I call the shots. God will judge as he promises he will. Our denial does not make it change.......

In all due respect. God allows us to call our own shots with free will, and your denial of it will not change it, no matter how much you want to read into the King James Bible.

when you grow more powerfull in nature you will come to an epiphany that can be called satan; a child like nature of your ways and means of overcoming what you once called obstacles that still retains a likeness of your being, this being called lucifer in purity also will come with an awareness that is also exhausting. to place on my shoulders this burden by using my brother through money is grave and deplorable in fact actions such as are so vile that a reaction equal to or geater to your own actions of overcomance is warranted.

Jesus is God in human form. I dont believe that.

Who did Jesus pray to. Jesus talk to God. At his baptizism Jesus got God's spirit. God said this is my son whom I am well pleased.

John 6
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Could this be more clear

what you have been taught about christianity has nothing to do with occultism in the angle in which you as a body speak to i on the interwebz; also you did not mention satan in any regard.

reply to post by tgambill


Please, do better than google something for the truth. (Don't mean to be disrespectful just want you to think about this) Just because most of the informaion on google links satan to the occult only means that after nearly 2000 years of conditioning this is what the majority of people believe. It does not make it truth. Truth is much, much more difficult to discern. May I dare say, there is no one here who knows the truth, least of all me.


[edit on 25-12-2008 by liveandlearn]

actually that means a truth like satan is within perceptive grasp by someone not in a priest caste.