Originally posted by wylekat That's what these preachers are- untrained, uncaring piano tuners making some of the most discordant music.....

Correct. There are a lot of pastors who I do believe genuinely care, but their whole premise is/was wrong from the get go and thus, when they teach from the bible, they are teaching everything via the faulty premise.

If the foundation of what someone believes is wrong from the get go, everything they are building on top of that is going to be shaky and unstable.

Jesus is not the savior of the world and not only did he NOT claim this, he said quite clearly what his intentions were and those intentions HIGHLY contrast him being the savior of the world. Someone *ahem* (the founder of christianity as we know it) else outside of Jesus was responsible for this twisted view of the messiah. Jesus came to enlighten the Jews and gather together the house of Israel; much the same way Gandhi enlightened the Indians and set his life mission on helping India escape the tyranny it was under. Yet, Gandhi isn't being falsely glorified as the savior of the world.

Both of these men had the same type of mission to THEIR own people. This is why christianity will only continue to tear apart and lead us into control and manipulations. It looks to an idol outside of oneself rather than teaching the personal enlightenment it was meant to teach. We need our own "Gandhi" and "Jesus" to come enlighten the people of this country (however, the ppl are too stubborn, prideful, blind, and greedy).

[edit on 20-12-2008 by justamomma]

Heres the problem everybody does. I right your wrong. Every single person on this board does it. Even i do. And in every organization government, religion, school, army, whatever it is. They all have its bad and good. In every single organization there is good people and bad. There will never be some perfect organization without God. And without those laws of God which every organization bascily fallows. There would be a worst life for us. And people would be more evil.

The true question is who does God talk to, who does God move and direct. And if he did where is the Word of God, did he spoke people did they right a book. And if he did how do you know which is the real way of life.

People want to say the preacher is wrong fine, THEY CAN BE WRONG. But the problem is we judge too much. The fact bible is the word of God. The preachers read from it, pray about it, and use it. So if you want to fine God without the preacher read the damn Bible. We would have no damn clue who Jesus is without it. With out the bible, we wouldnt know nothing.

The bible says every man will think he is right. Of course this is true, if we thought we were wrong then we would change our minds.

Thinking you are right and the other person is wrong is hardly the actual problem. The problem is when people persecute the people they think are wrong. The problem is not being able to deal with another persons perspectives and opinions right or wrong.

These types of discussions are tricky. But we can't solve the problem by blaming someone who thinks they are right, because this is apparent in all of us, it's all a result of our own unique individual perspectives. So what we have to do is to realize that this is true, and learn to respect others opinions for what they are. Don't have to agree, don't need to shut up or not share opinions, just gotta let people have their own opinions.

Because that is exactly how you would want to be treated, and that is to love thy neighbor as thyself. ESPECIALLY when you think they are way wrong.

Originally posted by AshleyD
To me, if you have accepted Jesus as your Savior, then you are part of the flock. Period.

That's not what Jesus said...

Mt 7:21 . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Originally posted by doctorex

Originally posted by AshleyD
To me, if you have accepted Jesus as your Savior, then you are part of the flock. Period.

That's not what Jesus said...

Mt 7:21 . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ashley is right (again), accepting Jesus as saviour means being saved. Being saved means not being asked to "depart from me" by Christ. This passage you've quoted says those who claim to know Jesus (and actually do not) will not be saved.

Here's my (and Ashley's) proof-text:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

Gotta drink the milk before trying to chew the meat.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by doctorex

Originally posted by AshleyD
To me, if you have accepted Jesus as your Savior, then you are part of the flock. Period.

That's not what Jesus said...

Mt 7:21 . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ashley is right (again), accepting Jesus as saviour means being saved. Being saved means not being asked to "depart from me" by Christ. This passage you've quoted says those who claim to know Jesus (and actually do not) will not be saved.

Here's my (and Ashley's) proof-text:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

Gotta drink the milk before trying to chew the meat.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

To believe on Christ, you have to actually believe what he said. How many out there that simply believe on Christ, think they are saved? About 99%. Even the demon's believe. Christ said you you still have to do the will of the father, and that includes the 10 commandments. How many "saved" actually follow these, such as the the 7th day Sabbath? How about the commandment about idols and graven images? How many "saved christians" do you see walking around with Jesus hanging from their necks etc. I could go on forever.

Originally posted by doctorex
To believe on Christ, you have to actually believe what he said. How many out there that simply believe on Christ, think they are saved? About 99%. Even the demon's believe.

Demons know that Jesus is the son of God, they don't believe/trust in him.

"When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" - Mark 5:6

Originally posted by doctorex
Christ said you you still have to do the will of the father, and that includes the 10 commandments. How many "saved" actually follow these, such as the the 7th day Sabbath?

"But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." - Luke 23:40-43

What deeds had this criminal done to 'earn' his way to heaven?

Originally posted by doctorex
How about the commandment about idols and graven images?

What about it?

Originally posted by doctorex
How many "saved christians" do you see walking around with Jesus hanging from their necks etc. I could go on forever.

I cannot tell who is saved and who is not by what is hanging from their necks. Can you?

What is the door then? What is the gate to enter heaven?

"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture." - John 10:9

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16

Deeds?

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:8

Yes, when looking at humanity throughout history that number will be few. Yes, we are told to do good works else we are spiritually lazy, but Biblically one cannot escape judgement by merely doing good deeds.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by badmedia
What you are talking about is a satanic lie, which views Jesus as a sacrifice so that you don't have to do anything, and so you will walk the wide path.

I'm sorry but your information is incorrect. If I tell people to go to Jesus and believe in him (as he has instructed) how then could it possibly be a Satanic lie? When I say refuse Satan and say go to God, how can that be lie?

"If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand." - Mark 3:25

If I quote scripture, how can THAT be a lie? Do not take my word for it, go to God and ask Him. When you go to the source, the messenging from another person is unnecessary.

Be careful with your judgements, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:2

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm sorry but your information is incorrect. If I tell people to go to Jesus and believe in him (as he has instructed) how then could it possibly be a Satanic lie? When I say refuse Satan and say go to God, how can that be lie?

"If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand." - Mark 3:25

If I quote scripture, how can THAT be a lie? Do not take my word for it, go to God and ask Him. When you go to the source, the messenging from another person is unnecessary.

Revelations 22

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

God's house isn't divided. Satans house is, and always will be, because it is based on a lie. I find it funny when people such as yourself accuse me of "dividing". What you are scared of me dividing is the lie from the truth. As it is impossible for me to divide gods house. And great will be the fall of that divided house.

Matthew 7

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

You embrace the wide path of Jesus being a sacrifice, not the narrow path of Jesus being the example of what you must follow. Satan is the one who see's Jesus as a sacrifice. A sacrifice of the truth so that the world may live. But Jesus was an example for you, who sacrificed his life to bring it to you - so that you may live.

And I worry not about judgement, for I have already been past that and stay on this earth by my own choice - to help people like you.


[edit on 22-12-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by saint4God
What is the door then? What is the gate to enter heaven?

"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture." - John 10:9

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16

Deeds?

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:8

Yes, when looking at humanity throughout history that number will be few. Yes, we are told to do good works else we are spiritually lazy, but Biblically one cannot escape judgement by merely doing good deeds.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

You are correct, according with the Scriptures the gift of everlasting life is just that... A GIFT, and we cannot do anything to "win" or even deserve that gift.

However, in respects to faith and works (deeds), these two go hand in hand, you CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER.... that simple, and nothing contradicting about it. You see, true faith is backed up by works, and good works that please God are backed up by faith.

For just one example, I encourage you to read James Chapter 2, it's very clear. I'll quote just two versus from that chapter:

verse 17 - "Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself".

verse 26 - "Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead".

Originally posted by AshleyD
To me, if you have accepted Jesus as your Savior, then you are part of the flock. Period.
[edit on 12/18/2008 by AshleyD]

This statement indicates you have been fleeced. Look for better shepherds. Look for "the good shepherd".

Christ!

[edit on 23-12-2008 by Christ!]

Originally posted by slymattb
The true question is who does God talk to, who does God move and direct. And if he did where is the Word of God, did he spoke people did they right a book. And if he did how do you know which is the real way of life.

People want to say the preacher is wrong fine, THEY CAN BE WRONG. But the problem is we judge too much. The fact bible is the word of God. The preachers read from it, pray about it, and use it. So if you want to fine God without the preacher read the damn Bible. We would have no damn clue who Jesus is without it. With out the bible, we wouldnt know nothing.

The Good Shepherd talks to those who will listen. Few are listening. Some have listened, and have scribed entire books. Typically, a "Christian" pastor will read perhaps a few paragraphs of such books and judge them to be "of the devil", quickly close them, hand them back to whomever handed it to them, or toss it in the fire. In another case, for example, a spirit will present itself as the author of a book authored by Jesus, call himself "Jesus", and, speaking through a willing channeler, will begin to reinterpret the book, such that its meaning is opposite of what it was intended to mean. And by such sophistry, poor shepherds are able to lead astray those who have the very words of the Savior unedited. And this has always been the case, since the beginning, even among the apostles, whose "soil" was not prepared to cultivate the kind of seed that Jesus sowed among them.

Be it known that there was an early rift between some apostles and others regarding the interpretation of Jesus' parables and parodies. Likewise, should the Word be spoken clearly, the "devil" in men's minds will twist such words to support their agenda, the very instant they hear the Word.

The main agenda that causes the Word not to be heard is the secret desire to be individuals, to seem autonomous, to express a unique will, to be special, to be different, to be unique, to have an unusual persona/personality, to have a glorified body, and to live as a person, entity, or being that is different, and ranked among a heirarchy of special ones. No sooner the Word falls upon such as these that it is burned up by the hot sun, or taken by the birds of the air.

A field of wheat is sown by a good farmer. Night falls and the evil one sows tares among the wheat. They grow together. The wheat and tares are brought into the storehouse, and stacked together without discrimination. Such is the bible. One must "judge" with Christ in order to tell the difference between what looks the same to the uneducated eye.

Christ!




[edit on 23-12-2008 by Christ!]