Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

Stumason although I do see the reason behind your words, I agree with the others in thee sense that this was damaging both mentally and physically as the Tibetan Buddhists would say in this case, "Although a drop of water may seemingly do nothing if it repeats enough even the largest of boulders will be eroded and broken." A "smack" can still harm a person both mentally and physically if repeated sufficiently.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Until we know otherwise, it's all speculation and that's not really firm enough to build some kind of moral high ground on it.

Although I agree that there is much information regarding the circumstances, child's behavior and levels of punishment that he may or may not have suffered, not to mention potential of "wiring" issues that again we have no idea of. So I agree that we need a lot more information before we can say definitively what happened. My post wasn't meant to justify this particular case, but to point out that there are signs which lean a certain way.

My post outlined that there are circumstances in which one might feel that this kids actions was a just recourse. I wanted to highlight that some points of information do point to "signs" of abuse. Keeping a tally at all, is a very good sign that this kid felt the smacking may not have been justified, or was in excess.
(it was mentioned often that 1000 smacks over 8 years wasn't excessive, so I pointed out that he would not have been able to count out of the womb. I didn't say his count was accurate or what constituted a smack.)

The killing of the guest, makes me think there was more to the guest than has been mentioned, and the police interrogation should not have been performed in the fashion it was. None of which provides enough information to make a judgment, but it is food for thought.

There is no high moral ground here. If you have to smack your 8 year old, you have already lost. I did not teach my kids that no one has the right to smack them by smacking them. There are alternatives.

Thanks for reading.

..Ex

Originally posted by v3_exceed

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Until we know otherwise, it's all speculation and that's not really firm enough to build some kind of moral high ground on it.

I did not teach my kids that no one has the right to smack them by smacking them. There are alternatives.

Good point I agree.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

But of course, for so many North Americans, the gun is the answer to everything. What's the Mark Twain quote? "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

First blaming guns never solved a crime, neither did characterizing North Americans in the light you shine. A murder is a murder regardless of the weapon you use. But that doesn't matter because it's easier to blame American culture, isn't it?

First off, yes I have kids, secondly, yes, at times, they have been spanked, but I can probably count the number of times on both hands, and that's with 4 kids, and yes, they are all well behaved, good students, etc...

But here's what strikes me. An 8 year old logged 1000 smacks. On his eight birthday he was only 2922 days old (I threw in two leap years there...) anyway, my six year old has trouble counting to 1000. She can do it, but to conciously set that as an "end point" seems a bit far off, and she is a very bright child...My eight year old, obviously could log something to 1000...the point I'm getting at here is we don't know at what age he actually had the thought to start logging his "smacks". I'd GUESS somewhere between 6 & 8, just based on the kids I see everyday...so how many "Clips around the ear" or "smacks on the behind" even if that's ALL it was, is too much?

Let's say he started logging two years earlier, that's an average of 2.73 "smacks" per day...that seems a bit extreme to me. The fact alone that the article states he was smacked for forgetting his homework speaks volumes as to what type of dicipline was used...it sure doesn't seem that it's a "last resort" in that household.

What of all the smacks he got BEFORE he decided to start logging it. It's hard to believe that after his very first "smack" he'd say, "Well pops, that's the first, all you get is 1000"

This kid was hit more than 1000 times, in a lifetime less than 3500 days old. A THOUSAND TIMES is all we have documented. Even those of you who advocate spanking, on your child's WORST days, can you even imagine having smacked your kid 1000 times? A hundred times?

A clip on the ear, once, may not be abuse, but ONE THOUSAND TIMES is. There's just no two ways about it.

And we all know that kids would NEVER exagerate or blatantly lie about something like this. I've seen kids sit there and tell people with tears in their eyes about how their parents grabbed them by the arm and pulled them around and left bruises, when in actuality they fell and bruised their arm, and were pissed at their parents and wanted to get them in trouble. How many times have kids come home and lied about something a teacher did or someone at school did because they knew it would cause trouble?

reply to post by Layla


You make a good point.
Obviously if you havent learned after a number you can count on one hand then it's time to try somthing else.

Even if his smacks were nothing more than getting your ear thumped, or getting his hand swatted for not listening, a thousand times in a short span of time is a little over the top.

sorry for the short post but who is to say this "log" is even accurate?? So many are using it as their proof/fact to call it abuse and justify the killings...pretty bold

reply to post by rcwj75


Ok, so say it was really only 700 times? Is it ok then? Obviously this kd reached a point where enough was enough and started logging it. Doesn't that speak volumes? It does to me, but maybe that's only because I have kids?

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by RogerT
But isn't that an aspect of society that we are wanting to change?

Living in society and changing it are two different things. In the future perhaps all wolves will be vegetarians, but to raise lambs with that expectation would be a huge mistake.

I see many people using their children as a special "companion and friend" for their own pleasure instead of being what their children so desperately need -- parents.

Why do you think 'companion and friend' and 'parent' are mutually exclusive?

Call me idealist, but I'm not willing to rationalise violence so easily.

There are other ways to illuminate to a child the cold and heartless world we spend most of our lives in than a 'smack upside the head', and it would seem this thread should be fair warning to the 'slapping' proponents that there are nasty consequences to this kind of 'acclimatisation' to the 'real world'

Originally posted by Zaphod58
You're right, I've seen just how well "listening to their communication" works with kids. Just go to any mall or large store and watch them running around screaming, and their parents pleading with them to behave, and you can see how well that works.

listening ... pleading ...

how are they the same?

I understand why you resort to the back of your hand, if this is the way you listen to others

and you got a star - some-one else with literacy issues or a love of violence?

I would like you all to know, Vince was a friend of mine. He had sole physical custody of his son from the divorce. I was also a police officer in the town of St. Johns. As far as I know, there was never even a mention of any type of abuse during, before or after the divorce.

None of us know what took place, not even the officers at the scene know exactly what happend. The boy did not 'confess' until the day after the crime. His confession will not be admissable in court for several reasons. I understand the murder charge for Vinces' murder has already been dropped.

It was a terrible thing all the way around, pontification on any of our parts will not change the fact that 2 fathers were killed that day, and none of us will ever know exactly why. Continue on with your rants and ideas, but know there are real people involved in this who might read your comments.

Somehow, I hope peace can be restored to these families, the 8 year old has a long life ahead of him, I feel for those left in his life and the child himself. Peace to you all.

reply to post by RogerT


And there you go categorizing me without even knowing anything about what kind of parent I am. You have NO CLUE, but since I believe in spanking someone I automatically resort to violence. I'm a horrible person because I have the GALL to resort to raising them the way I was raised, and raised VERY WELL thank you.

You have the arrogance to assume that I don't listen to my kids, or that as soon as they do something wrong I spank them. HOW DARE YOU categorize me that way without even knowing a DAMN thing about me except what I wrote in a thread. People that do that make me sick. You're just as bad as the people that say "Oh, he's an American, he'll end up shooting someone."

Spanking a child is the LAST thing that I do, and afterwards I sit them down and explain to them why what they did was wrong, and why they got spanked. I can count the number of times I spanked either of my step daughters or my ex-wife has had to spank my daughter on the fingers of one hand. That's for ALL THREE CHILDREN. And they are polite, and respectful little girls.

Don't you DARE have the nerve to sit there and judge me without knowing anything about me other than that I believe in spanking and disciplining children when they're bad.

I know a lot of parents that DO listen to their kids. Their kids still don't listen to THEM when they're acting up.

[edit on 11/30/2008 by Zaphod58]

Child abuse, sucks but it taught me alot of things. This kid is weak.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Canadianduder

 

And I "LOL" at your attitude without having learned any facts about the case.

You have formed an opinion based on nothing, that is foolish.

If the abuse was that bad, then he had recourse to escape it. His own Grandparents for example, the Police, his teachers, his friends. But no, it would seem his initial reaction was to shoot his dad and his dad's friend. A violent reaction, in a violent society.

It remains to be seen just how bad the "abuse" was. A clip round the ear for not doing homework or a smacked arse for being a disobedient little turd is not abuse.

Personally, I would rather wait and see what evidence, if any, comes out about what exactly transpired before forming any cast-iron opinions.

EDIT: Baby P is a single bad example out of thousands of good examples. We could all find a bad apple if we look for one, but it is hardly proof of anything. is it? A couple of Social Workers and a doctor cocked up and a baby died.

Every day, hundreds of kids are well cared for by Social Services and the like, but they don't get a mention do they?

[edit on 30/11/08 by stumason]

You really need to read the bloody article. It says he reached his limit at 1000 spankings....here in america, a spanking is a full on, over the knee, pants off, whaling on your ass affair....now then....let's do a little simple math....

The kid's 8...that's 2920 days....now then, if they've been beating him since he was born (child abusers are pretty fraked in the head, so who knows), that means they've been beating him like every other day, or every second day, on average...or if you wanna give the benefit of the doubt, and assume they started later on, then it becomes either every other day, or every day.

How much of that could YOU personally withstand?

And don't think like an adult....think like a child. Children do not operate on the same level as adults, mentally, they're also taken less seriously.....it goes back to old BS idea that "children should be seen and not heard".

in his little tortured mind, killing his father was the only response that existed. It sounds messed up by our standards, BUT, there are merits to it.

IF he was indeed being abused, then this was a defensive measure, and was necessary. This also means there's one less abuser in the world.

Your mis characterization of america as outright violent is both ignorant, and offensive. We have violence here, just like you have violence there. And before you start lying about england not being violent, tell me......how are the statistics for knife crime over there?...still stupidly high? how about gun violence, or football hooligans going bat# and brawling in pubs and in the streets?

You sir, need to get your facts straight.

Well one thing is for sure, there was something seriously wrong with this kid. Unless he has a brain tumor that made him go suddenly nuts, the father had to have some hand in this, even if it was not realizing there was a problem.

Whatever brought this on, it was surely more than just bratty kid syndrome.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by RogerT

 

And there you go categorizing me without even knowing anything about what kind of parent I am. You have NO CLUE, but since I believe in spanking someone I automatically resort to violence. I'm a horrible person because I have the GALL to resort to raising them the way I was raised, and raised VERY WELL thank you.

Spanking a child is the LAST thing that I do, and afterwards I sit them down and explain to them why what they did was wrong, and why they got spanked. I can count the number of times I spanked either of my step daughters or my ex-wife has had to spank my daughter on the fingers of one hand. That's for ALL THREE CHILDREN. And they are polite, and respectful little girls.

And that's how it ought to be done. communication is key.....if you're gonna hit a kid, you need to have that as a last resort, and then you need to make sure you've throughly communicated to them why that was necessary. Make sure they understand why what they did was so bad that ir required that type of response...this is the only way they can learn from it.

Originally posted by RogerT
Why do you think 'companion and friend' and 'parent' are mutually exclusive? Call me idealist, but I'm not willing to rationalise violence so easily.

They are not mutually exclusive, but it seems many modern parents want their kids to “like them” so much they are afraid to be true disciplinarians. Look at the trend of parents that “defend” their children against teachers or even police when the kid gets in trouble. Many seem to think they need to be a “friend” first and that means defending their child and taking its side no matter what the kid has done.

I am not a proponent of slapping kids, that is why I said it is best to put some fear into them when they are young. I recall my sister, she spoiled her kids far too much, one daughter used to slap her in the face at two years old. What did my sister do about it? She would walk away to “punish” the kid. Needless to say there was never any respect, and certainly not any fear when it came to pushing the limits. She would also give 10 “warnings” before taking any action, talk about giving the kid power.

Let us shed a little light on this. I WAS abused by parents who should never have had me. I was beaten, denied food at times, denied trips to the bathroom, ridiculed, made to do things against my will- like MADE to go fight someone... tortured, you name it. I snapped the day my father came in to try to beat me for the last time. NOT a spanking- but a full out beat me up thing. I fought back, and I won BIG time. Broke his hip in a way that was pure adrenalin- I had no leverage at all, but twisted with everything I had. If that kid shot his dad and the boarder- He needs to be talked to, and I am willing to say he needs a medical exam to check for signs of abuse- sexually as well.

I went thru the abuse til I was 16. And even tho I was not one to beat the crap out of someone- by the time my parents got done with me, All that changed.

If this was abuse related- I don't blame the poor kid one bit.

Originally posted by Canadianduder
...
This kid should be treated as a victim, nothing else.

He even documented the abuse as best he could until he couldn't take it anymore - then he excercised his 2nd amendment right and he took up arms against his attackers, whom he slew in self-defense. God bless him. If this was England, or another disarmed country - he never would have had a chance.

I hope he gets a nice family. He deserves one.
[edit on 30-11-2008 by Canadianduder]

?!WHAT?! I do agree that abuse is WRONG on all fronts, but this 8 year old MURDERED 2 adults. But "God bless him"???

There is alot of fault to go around in a scenario such as this. But the kid is NO SAINT. Are you effing crazy?

I hope that this 8 year old gets the mental help that he needs!

Anyone that thinks this kid was pushed to do this has never read, "A Child Called It" By David Pelzer
en.wikipedia.org...

The book describes the worsening abuse that Pelzer suffered at the hand of his mother and her alcoholism. Most speculate that she had some other addiction or a chemical imbalance but none is known. Among the many incidents discussed is that his mother attempted to burn Dave on a stove when he was 8 years old. It was at this point his mother began to make him go without food for extended periods of time. The abuse gets worse and David is forced to sleep in the basement and perform hard labor which involved chores. He got an average of half a meal a day on a good day. When David was 10, she also stabbed him in the stomach—accidentally, as Pelzer notes in the book—and did not take him to the hospital (though she did take care of the wound herself). By this point he was no longer considered part of the family and lived in the basement, denied basic contact, play, and food. His mother stated that she did not want Dave to interact with "her family".

Over time the depth of the abuse worsened. Dave claimed he was forced to sit in the "prisoner of war" position (head bent backwards facing sky, sitting on hands). His mother stopped using his name and began referring to him first as "The Boy" and finally "It". The punishments are reported to have evolved into "sick games" in which she made her son suffer.

Incidents cited in the book include forcing ammonia down his throat,sitting in a sealed bathroom while inhaling the fumes from a bucket of ammonia mixed with bleach (Gas Chamber), inducing vomiting followed by forced ingestion, smashing his face against a mirror while forcing him to say "I'm a bad boy", lying in the bathtub naked with freezing water for hours, rubbing his face in his baby brother's soiled diaper trying to make him eat his youngest brother's feces, as well as starvation and general malnutrition, and "accidentally" stabbing him with a knife when he didn't meet the time limit to do the dishes. His mother also put his hand on a gas stove which caused his hand to burn to crisp. She also said, "Now sit on the stove so I can watch you burn and die."

In each of the sequels, the author reveals more forms of torture he did not describe in this book (e.g., his mother hitting his neck with a broom handle, causing his neck to swell so that he was unable to breathe).

Initially the abuse did not happen when his father was around. But when David entered first grade for the second time, the abuse began to occur even in his father's presence. At first he tried to stop the abuse but as time went on felt unable to intervene. David generally only got food when his father was home, for example. In the face of this abuse, his father gradually distanced himself from the house, and finally moved out when David turned 12 years old. About two months later, on March 5th, 1973 David was rescued by teachers at his school.