Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Canadianduder

 

And I "LOL" at your attitude without having learned any facts about the case.

You have formed an opinion based on nothing, that is foolish.

If the abuse was that bad, then he had recourse to escape it. His own Grandparents for example, the Police, his teachers, his friends. But no, it would seem his initial reaction was to shoot his dad and his dad's friend. A violent reaction, in a violent society.

It remains to be seen just how bad the "abuse" was. A clip round the ear for not doing homework or a smacked arse for being a disobedient little turd is not abuse.

Personally, I would rather wait and see what evidence, if any, comes out about what exactly transpired before forming any cast-iron opinions.

EDIT: Baby P is a single bad example out of thousands of good examples. We could all find a bad apple if we look for one, but it is hardly proof of anything. is it? A couple of Social Workers and a doctor cocked up and a baby died.

Every day, hundreds of kids are well cared for by Social Services and the like, but they don't get a mention do they?

[edit on 30/11/08 by stumason]

again you speak of his grandparents who couldve helped him if he went to them

they admitted of knowing of the situation and they did nothing
they KNEW what was going on and yet did nothing
oh but from your view it seems that they should not have done nothing untill the child asked them for help

the kid probably knew the grandparents knew, he knew they havent done anything yet
so whats the kid supposed to do?

keep getting beaten untill the grandparents decide to get off their asses?

dude you keep talking about waiting for answers to come out before jumping to conclusions but all im seeing you do on this thread is bash a 8 year old

how old are you??? 4?

ok and what the hell is up with all of you on this board


seriously look and think about what you're saying im still on the 1st page and astounded at what im reading

people are even discussing the fact this kid might have deserved 1000 "punishments" (i say "punishments" because we dont know what really happened and im not jumping to conclusions like so many are hypocratically doing)


this kid is freaking 8 years old if he DOES deserve or DID deserve to be hit that many times, THAN AGAIN ITS THE PARENTS FAULT

this kid was that bad that 1000 punishments were deserved, yet this child had no history of mental health problems or check ups or anything like that of the sort

jesus people think about what you're saying and you'll realize it makes no sense

these same people talking about social services

if this kids 8 and has that many problems why arent the parents getting the kid help

if the kids still a screw up after 500 beatings dont you think a normal parents would try something different? try a doctor? try social services themselves?? something? anything?

but theres people on here sitting here calling this kid names??

what the hell is wrong that you people dont see the hypocrisy in each statement

maybe the kid was wrong
maybe the dad was wrong

but like everyones preaching, wait for the facts to come out before you start calling 8 year olds names

i mean seriously arent we grown adults??

yet we're online calling kids names?

this thread really has me disapointed in several of those in the ats community

Originally posted by RogerT

By the way, your avatar is a 'fighter' jet and your byline is thread-'killer', so yes, my best guess is that violence is in there somewhere.

Well, to be fair - since it's a game you seem quite happy to play - you have a dog in your avatar. Shall I start googling-up some stories about chavs in Britain menacing or attacking people with dogs. Are you a chav? Is there 'violence in there somewhere' too?

I'm not particularly keen on avatars with guns, soldiers, weapons &c in them but ultimately, they don't really mean that much, or rather, they don't always have to mean that much. What's the quote? "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"? I mean, what do you think I stand around in a pond all day?

Let's stop all this personal sniping and stick to the story at hand.

i dont think ive ever seen a thread derailed to this extent before, i pray no new ats members ever view this thread as this is not the light i would like ats to be shown in

i am truly disapointed in all but a select few in this thread, and honestly some of the only people on this thread that posted anything on subject or even reasonable are some people whos views i completely disagreed with in other threads

it is absolutely atrocious that it took 4-5 pages for this thread to be told to get back on topic


the majority of these posts seem to be trolling at the definition of the word


the topic at hand here is murder

a 8 year old murdering 2 adults

the circumstances leading up to this event

the subject of this thread isnt whether spankings are right or wrong
its not about how to discipline or not

whats its about is what made a 8 year old kill 2 men?

now please lets get on track here and stop the trolling back to back nonsense

im not a mod but i feel like im in a room with nothing but 8 year olds with all the hypocrisy in this single thread

the few of you who were on topic and mature with your posts, thank you, the rest of you, please lets better ats

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Are you a chav? Is there 'violence in there somewhere' too?

Of course there is, but I'm not pretending there isn't and at the same time justifying violence to children

The posts may appear to be personal snipes, but the intention is to highlight the pervasiveness of a particularly nasty side of our nature, which is to use violence to get what we want.

I am suggesting that slapping, however justified it seems in the moment, helps to reinforce and perpetuate the cultural acceptance of bullying/manipulation by force.

Given that this child did exactly that, (use violence to achieve an aim) and claims the father did the same, makes the posts right on topic and totally relevant, albeit a little thinking/reflection may be required.

The avatar comments were an afterthought which I admit I should probably have omitted. Yes I was stretching. Shame this has now become the focus, but then arguing over some inanity is one way to avoid confronting one's shadow.

[edit on 1/12/08 by RogerT]

reply to post by Merriman Weir


If there is truth to the smacks, this kid could do less then 2 years in juvi. If any sort of abuse is found to be credible; he will be deemed unfit of a stable mind and will be taken under physiciatric evaluation. I think if the story is true the parents got what was coming to them, a thousand smacks would be 1 smack everyday for 3 years, and this year with my own daughter I believe I've only tallied up two.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Maybe the father's friend had those "short eyes". How is an 8 year old boy supposed to protect himself when he comes face to face with an attacker, so to speak.

Originally posted by Lokey13
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

If there is truth to the smacks, this kid could do less then 2 years in juvi. If any sort of abuse is found to be credible; he will be deemed unfit of a stable mind and will be taken under physiciatric evaluation. I think if the story is true the parents got what was coming to them, a thousand smacks would be 1 smack everyday for 3 years, and this year with my own daughter I believe I've only tallied up two.

You could be right. If there is truth to the smacks, then he might even get less.

However, I'd be interested in the details regarding evidence or proof that the boy's story is true. Is this coming down to the boy's testimony with no other evidence? If that is the case, then isn't that a little flimsy? For the moment, try and forget that it's a young boy, and think objectively in terms of murder/homicide/whatever defendant giving similar evidence without anything else to back it up. Would people be so accepting then? I'm wondering whether the age of the defendant is allowing people to be less objective than they should be.

To put this into perspective, in Britain about 15 years ago, there was an horrific murder of a toddler by two 10-year-olds. Most Britons will be familiar with the murder of Jamie Bulger but it might not be that well-known abroad. Children can be unfathomable monsters in the same way as adults.

For the record, if the story is completely and utterly true that there was a 1000 spankings (with each spanking being an incident of spankings rather than individual points of 'contact') and that this happened within a relatively short time frame, perhaps only a few years, then yes, it's hard not to sympathise with the boy.

Again, at this time, we just don't know enough to say one way or the other. There's no real evidence to say that the father was a violent brute as of yet, let alone the lodger was also complicit in it. We just have the word of the defendant.

Here's a little new info about a "plea deal" that's being offered in this case.

I plan to keep reading and looking for new sourcing.

i was smacked as a child because i was a little # at times lol
but i had fair pearents if i was good i got treats if not got a smack.
any way i never had any incline what so ever to right down how many times they smacked me or when theses smackings occorud now for some 1 of 8 years old to right that down surely they had to be more than a smack on da ass or a clip round the ear hole
still the kid shouldnt have killed people but the police wouldnt have paid him any attention any way

sorry about spelling and gramer im dislesic

peace batch

As far as legalities, the boy will not be convitcted of anything. He cannot contract with the court, as his age is proof he cannot understand or accept a contract. You see, our so called 'Government' is nothing but a business, a corporation, and everbody knows you cannot contract with a minor.

Mark my words, there will be no conviction in this case and any plea deal would be unlawful.

Originally posted by Canadianduder
That kid was just doing what any man would do.

It's a shame what abuse does to children, and I am glad this child was able to end his.

This kid should be treated as a victim, nothing else.

He even documented the abuse as best he could until he couldn't take it anymore - then he excercised his 2nd amendment right and he took up arms against his attackers, whom he slew in self-defense. God bless him. If this was England, or another disarmed country - he never would have had a chance.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Canadianduder]

I guess first I will address the hypocrisy of this statement. You justify one amendment and yet condone the loss of another. Sorry pal it's a package deal. Second what did the other guy do to deserve death? And probably most importantly is that obviously 1000 accumulated slaps was not near enough to teach this child discipline. You know the media version of what happened and you base your slander of the constitutional right to bear arms upon that premise. Oh God I am glad the whole nation is not so gullible otherwise we would all be shackled and chained already. You are the exact reason the government uses the media, because it actually does work on some individuals. I'd bet my last dollar if this kid smashed out your car windows you would sure as hell condone him being slapped. As far as his abuse goes, he hasn't seen anything yet, I imagine he will not remain anal retentive until adulthood now. Maybe the father should have used a switch instead like my parents did. I certainly did not want to shoot them for it and I was a pretty bad kid and got punished often for my behavior. But then again maybe I should have documented every time I got punished, and used that as justification for killing someone without offering a reason as to why I got punished, not to mention that even if I did, who could challenge that, the only other person who has information was murdered. I want to pose a question to you; can you look back through a short period of history and locate when the children of this world became out of control? If you said right after the government took the parents right away to discipline their children, you are smarter than I gave you credit for. I remember when my daughter was 16, and I NEVER USED PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE with my children, was punished by not being allowed to use the car she threatened to call the police and say I beat her. My response to her was, go ahead, then you can be placed in a home where you are not loved, so please save me some money and call your friends at the police office, and don't forget the car you think is yours is in fact mine and it stays here. Needless to say that her spoiled behind made the right decision.

Even though it is distasteful for some to admit we all are just the "Human Animal" The younger we are the more instinctual we are and unfortunatly for us all the majority believe we are better off throwing that instinct out the window and relying on what society teaches us to do or the so called civil reactions we should have to certain circumstances.

An 8 year old boy will only know right from wrong if he has been taught right from wrong. If an 8 year old is taught right from wrong will he understand the consequences of his wrongful actions?

This child may have an opportunity to have a normal life with some counceling and a loving family. Anyone who is smacked so often that they begin to count the smacks is near the breaking point. Temporary insanity.

reply to post by DarrylGalasso



I agree with some of what you say about children being out of control these days because society and the laws have tied parents hands. Fear breeds caution. Instilling a little fear in children makes them more cautious. That is why fathers are usually the enforcers of the household because they have louder deeper voices and usually get angry so the children fear the consequences if they don't follow the rules. Nothing wrong with a little fear because that will serve children well thier whole life. But there is a difference between a little fear and abuse.

reply to post by DarrylGalasso


What you fail to realize Daryl is that children learn what they are taught.

If you hit a child everytime they do something wrong, they learn that everythime they are wronged they are right in lashing out with violence.

It's as simple as that.

Smack a child 1000 times and you are a fool for not expecting violence when the child feels wronged.

I've never had to lay a hand on my child, and he is very obediant. You know why? Because I seek to understand my child so that my child will seek to understand me. Everynight before bed, I read to him for an hour.

At least 3 times a week, we have dinner around the family table. There are tons of these little things which make parenting a blessing.

Although as a child, I was beat repeatedly. I was not taught to be proud I was taught to be ashamed. None of my parents attempted to understand me, they just felt that they could beat me until they broke me and I did what they said. That's not how you raise an adult. That's how you raise a slave.

I don't condone the actions of this child, but they seem logical and expected to me. You got bad children? Look at the parents. The answer isn't in how they punish, it's in how they discipline. How do they make their child a disciple of themselves?

I get so sick when I hear people say "Well your child doesn't have to like you... you are their parent not their friend". These same people wonder why peers have more influence than the parents. That's because yes your children do have to like you if you expect them to want to be like you.

My child worships the ground I walk on. Why? Because I give him respect, and he repays it to me 10 times over.

You get what you give, and this father obviously recieved what he gave to his child. Sad thing is that the father may have thought he was doing what was right, all the while he was planning his own funeral.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Don't know how the lodger figures into this but, otherwise, I find the child's behavior commendable. Enough forewarning was available that the child abuse should have ceased. If I had known this child, I would give him a pat on the back. Parents need to know what the eventual result of child abuse is. This event may also motivate other abused children to strike back at their abusers.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Don't know how the lodger figures into this but, otherwise, I find the child's behavior commendable. Enough forewarning was available that the child abuse should have ceased. If I had known this child, I would give him a pat on the back. Parents need to know what the eventual result of child abuse is. This event may also motivate other abused children to strike back at their abusers.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I get so sick when I hear people say "Well your child doesn't have to like you... you are their parent not their friend". These same people wonder why peers have more influence than the parents. That's because yes your children do have to like you if you expect them to want to be like you.

Wisdom in that paragraph, especially the last sentence which I felt the need to repost and highlight so no-one would miss it.

Thank you. I feel better now

reply to post by stumason


WOW, a clip round the ear is dangerous and abusive. Sounds like your children fear you and do not respect you. Their is a big difference their bud. I hope the authorities figure out who you are and come have a little chat with you.

I remember as a child being smacked in the face and across the head, it is one of the most humiliating and degrading feelings a child can have, and I GUARANTEE you that it did not create a feeling of respect of my parents, it created a feeling of fear and hate.

Definitely NOT feelings I want to foster in my children, I want respect not fear.

Getting your children to "obey" you out of fear is not teaching them self discipline, it is teaching them that someone more powerful than they are has control over them, which in the end they will grow up fighting to be the ones that are "more powerful".

When are we, as a society going to understand that? To me using physical violence on a child just shows our lack of responsibility to these little ones we have brought into this world, it shows our own inability to act as responsible adults and use our brains for a little discipline of our own.

It does not take intelligence to reach over and smack a child, it takes intelligence to find other loving ways of discipline for true teaching of lifelong responsibility, compassion and empathy.

It takes a wise parent to know that every child is different and responds to things differently. Some can be spoken to and they respond to that, others can be denied something, or even be spanked on occasion if so required. Of course 1000 smacks would seem to indicate it was daily which is unacceptable.

I know I'm fond of telling stories about people I know but, this applies.

I have a cousin named Chad that was raised in the "do anything you want home". His parents tried to raise him in the deny something and talk to him routine. If they denied the television he would put a hammer through it. If they denied a bicycle he would steal their car. If they grounded him he would wait till they were at work and sell their things or leave home anyway. When they tried to speak with him and explain things he would curse at them and break things, aka kick doors off hinges, throw food at his mother, set fire to furniture.

He came to stay with my parents for a month or so and tried to pull off the same stuff and yes my parents swatted him one time and to this day he is respectful towards them and even asked if he could move with them permanently (his mom wouldn't allow it). He has been in trouble with the police multiple times and even has told my parents that he wishes he could've stayed with them and his life would be better now because he needed someone that wouldn't put up with his crap.


My cousin Angie is very different, her mother would sit down with her and explain things and she would burst out crying. That was her only punishment as that worked.

I got swatted a very few times and that was because as I recall I threw rocks through all the windows in the house, cars. I cost my parents thousands in repairs that day. I think I kinda deserved it. The other thing I recall was pushing my brother from a tree and breaking his arm. Most of the time they sat me down to talk etc and that worked.

Nobody really knows the real upbringing of this 8 year old child. 1000 smacks seems excessive. If one is having to spank every day they are either 1. a bad parent or 2. there is something wrong with the child and he should have been given help. All the way around it is tragic and no parents shouldn't have guns just lying around which makes me suspect bad parenting.