Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

reply to post by Benarius

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It ain't that bad. Happened to me, and I turned out fine. All this "spanking is child abuse" arguing sounds like bellyaching to me.

Meerriman you are a very smart lady.
I would like to say one thing.
Children should not have had access to any type of dangerous article unsupervised.
I have very sharp knives, for filleting fish.
They are extremelly sharp made of hardened steel and could kill 15 people before they even began to go blunt.
I keep them locked up.
With my rifle.
I am a Dad.
I have 2 children 8 and 10.
Both shoot my guns.
Boy and Girl.
Only when I am there.
They are locked in a safe, the same as the bank has its money in.
Not in my house.
When they are 18+ they will see that guns are just a machine.
As I did.
And the person who operates the machine is the cause.
But at the end of the day if my children turn out to be violent nuisances to the world like many others are right now.
Then I don't think there is anything anyone can do about it.
We will all end up back at the same place.
Peace. \../

reply to post by Benarius

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Undisciplined children are far more "damaged" than anything a clipped ear will give you.

Today, the streets are awash with kids who's parents wouldn't discipline them and now we have a youth crime wave in the UK. Didn't happen back in my day when parents were not scared of the PC brigade branding them child beaters just because they gave their child a slap.

And I don't see the need for the threats, really.

You think it's abuse, I do not. The Law agrees with me as it happens, so until the law is changed I shall use spanking, when necessary, which is very rarely.

You brand it as "emotional abuse" or whatever fluffy term you want, but isolation and deprivation are also "emotionally abusing", so you can't take the moral high ground.

*snip*

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[edit on 11/30/08 by niteboy82]

The difference between discipline and abuse?

Discipline is for the child's benefit.
Abuse is for the abuser's benefit.

If you perform a "corrective" action 1000 times without successfully correcting the problem, might you not try a different method?

I will usually hit "Control/Alt/Delete" about THREE times on my computer before realizing that particular trick is not working and switch to another method of fixing the glitch.

Even a cuff on the ear or swat on the bottom is only effective so many times. To even speak an unkind word 1000 times to a developing, impressionable mind is to instill and reinforce a negative outcome.

How many times were you told that George Washington was the first POTUS? Almost surely quite a bit less than 1000 times and yet it's a lesson that has stayed with you your entire life. If you were cursed 1000 times in 3000 days or hit (however lightly) 1000 times in 3000 days what life-long lesson would you take away from that?

Different methods work for different children. My oldest child was a social butterfly so grounding her for a few days was punishment enough. She was totally non-plussed by spanking. My second child preferred his own company so was unaffected by grounding or time out. Giving him the "mom" look while telling him how disappointed I was in his behavior was enough discipline. My youngest 2 children have only been spanked 2-3 in their lives and only when they were very young.

Spanking should be used as a tool, not a weapon and then, only rarely. Someone who raises their hand against another (especially a weaker one) 1000 times is probably not someone who has good impulse control or self-discipline. If the father lost his temper only 10% of the 1000 times then the child was "beaten" 100 times in his 8 years. Unacceptable.

I do have to ask, though; why was the lodger killed? Is there more to this story than what little has been presented? Has the boy been medically examined for signs of sexual abuse? Has any child pornography been found in the house? It's extremely disturbing to think that an 8 year old could be driven to take a human life for any reason.

Wow!

A bad parent hey? Lack of communication? What the hell do you know? A child abuser, even? Some pretty heavy accusations there, bordering on the downright personal and offensive.

I am not going to try and defend my actions to you, needless to say both my kids are well behaved, do well at school and are treated very well. If they get the occasional smack on the arse for being disobedient, then so be it.

Didn't do me any harm and what I received was far worse than anything I hand out to my kids.

*Staff Edit - Removed personal attacks inside quotes.*

[edit on 11/30/08 by niteboy82]

Here's how I see it.If you need to discipline a dog,you ought to use something which makes a sudden noise like a can full of pennies and which will not hurt hir.Kicking a dog is a big no-no psychologically.You will never be trusted by that dog for doing that.Similarly a hit to the head on a child is demeaning.Two men and no woman is a situation with high abuse potential,especially with alcohol in the mix.My primary abuse provider used to call it 'Love taps' and I called the resulting bruises what they were but no one believed me.When people who are sociopaths hear the wimperings of the helpless,it drives them into a frenzy,I know exactly what I am talking about here.My own kids are not head shy nor discipline problems.I never refer to them as excrement.Hitting is a sign of frustration and YOU already lost the battle of wits.Go have a another drink.

Well another factor to consider is brain damage. If the father was "smacking" the kid all the time, at what age did it start? Could it have knocked the kid hard enough, or knocked him down, and cause brain damage?

Quite a few serial killers suffered serious blows to the head that resulted in brain damage, it can damage the part of their brain used for impulse control. That is not an excuse, just fact.

reply to post by stumason

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So then be it. I take you up for a challenge in the apropriate debate forum. "SPANKING IS CHILD ABUSE vs. SPANKING IS NOT CHILD ABUSE". I get the mods to set it up for us. Let me know when you're ready.

Do you think you can hold a debate without getting personal?

And remember you should at least ponder the statements of the indivdual you are debating, instead of just reacting.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Koka]

reply to post by Koka

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Yes.

The debated issue has been stated.

The topic of this thread is:

Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'

The personal attacks/commentary need to end now. If you have a personal beef, take it to u2u, but please do not derail the thread by attacking fellow members.

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Carry on.

[edit on 11/30/08 by niteboy82]

You're absolutely right. I retract my accusations and apologize to all the affected ones. I therefore challenge anybody out there for the previous stated debate. You will be surprised how I can bring facts across in an orderly fasion. So let's see who will take the "other" side.

reply to post by stumason

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clip round the ear

What exactly is a clip round the ear? Never heard that before.

So your kids have learned to fear you and mock your wife. Sounds like neither technique has worked too well.

At least with your technique you get what YOU want, until your kids are old enough to leave home. I'm sure you fully believe that what YOU want is the right thing, and what they want is 'wrong'. That takes a certain level of arrogance, but I've noticed from your posts over the years that isn't a quality you are lacking.

Personally I have never 'spanked' or physically threatened any of my kids. I just don't want to teach them the concept of bullying to get what they want.

I don't think they turned into 'horrible little turds', rather the opposite, but then I am the father so I'm biased

As for a child shooting his father and friend, that's just sad, and obviously one of the more negative aspects of a gun culture.

Clearly, by using violence to get what he wanted, the father taught the child a little too well.

reply to post by inthesticks

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And here you have the essential difference between Europe and the US.

All the Brits instantly place faith in the "system" to protect a child who is being abused (Baby P anyone?), while the Americans recognise the right of the kid to deal directly with his abuser via the aplication of a .22LR.

Self reliance, or nanny state, you choose.

reply to post by RogerT

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Can't say I agree with your "analysis". I have found the best form of punishment is to deprive them of things they enjoy. As I have clearly stated several times here, I only give them a clip round the ear or a smacked arse rarely, but they know that I will if they continue to misbehave.

It may come as a shock to you, with your angelic little kids that you've obviously never had a problem with due to your excellent parenting skills (and you say I am arrogant), but sometimes reasoning with kids is a waste of time. Let me give you an example:

You go shopping with the children, they start to play up and run around the store, shouting or pulling things off shelves, you know the drill.

You ask them to behave, which they might do for all of 2 minutes. Then they start again, so you threaten them with a punishment, like no TV when you get home for example.

Now, while your out and about with 5 year olds they tend not to be too forward thinking. Your threat of no TV later has little impact, as they are not watching TV now, are they? You might threaten to remove something else instead, but whatever you do, it's likely to fall on deaf ears. There is little else you can threaten them with that has an immediate impact.

Now, if it was me in that situation, I would ask them first to behave. No joy? Ask again in a sterner manner. No joy again? Clip one round the ear as they run past. Enough to grab their attention and know you mean business, but certainly not enough to hurt them.

I have found on every occasion, a clip round the ear and a raised voice is far more effective at getting immediate compliance, rather than spending 20 minutes trying to "reason" with a hyperactive 5 year old, getting stressed in the process, having to remove god knows what when you get home and make sure you follow up on every threat of sanction you said.

Now, you may think that my kids "fear" me or don't respect my missus, but that is utter bollocks.

My daughter dotes on me, she clings to me like a limpet. She is always telling me how much she loves me, drawing me pictures and we play together and read often. She is just as loving with her mother.

The boy is less affectionate, as is the norm, but is a happy, bouncy lad who always wants to play. Sometimes he gets over excited and is usually the one to get the tellings off, but he is way ahead of his class in reading, writing and numeracy, so I am happy with the trade off in his slight misbehaviour for his excellent brain power.

What you interpret as them "fearing" me is incorrect. What the kids have learnt is to fear the consequences of their actions should they be doing wrong. They know I will follow through with my threats, which 95% of the time are the normal sanctions such as a grounding, no TV, removal of toys, which they then have to earn back. They don't just get them back the next day.

The problem with the missus is that she will not always follow through. Sometimes the lad will test her when she counts to three, to see if she will actually take away his spiderman toys. EVERY child will do that, they like to test boundaries to see how far they can go. Lately she has got better and we try to maintain a united front.

Anyway, the bottom line is I do not view a clip round the ear or a smacked bottom as "abuse". It has it's uses. The fact that you have made the gross mistake of assuming that is all I do, despite me having said otherwise just goes to show your out to try and gain some moral high ground, rather than actually listen to what I have said. Had you done so, then you would know that most of what you said was a crock of BS.

EDIT:

ANYWAY, THATS ME DONE ON THIS. I DO NOT WISH TO DERAIL THIS FURTHER

[edit on 30/11/08 by stumason]

Bottom line...NOONE can make any judgments as to the forms of abuse until this child actually tells us what happened. NOONE on this board was there, NOONE on this board saw it happen, NOONE on this board knows anyone involved to get FIRSTHAND knowledge and FACTS...yet I read MANY posts by people who sure as heck act like they stood there everytime something went down and know the true details. Its kinda pathetic to jump to conclusions!!!

Is it sad that it happened yes....but when you have a child kill 2 people...you better raise an eyebrow and know what your talking about before opening your mouths!

reply to post by stumason

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After reading all 4 pages of this thread I must commend you and your ability to raise your kids the right way. For the canadian poster...you badmouth others for doing it THEIR way...my only thing to you is...you said you had to send them off to grandpa's when they got way out of hand...so obviously YOUR techniques don't work that often either, or you find it easier to push your problems off on others because you can't handle them yourself...so drop your "my way is the best/only way to raise kids" attitude!

I've seen your new age, and it scares the hell out of me. Every day I see parents walking around the mall, or Wal-Mart begging their kids to behave, or pleading with them and the kids laugh and get worse.

My "kind" on the other hand, who got a whooping when we deserved it were generally very well behaved kids, very respectful to adults, open doors for women, pull out chairs etc. How many people do you see doing that now? I've had people stare at me in shock when I pulled a chair out, or when I opened a door and stood there holding it. Your "New Age" that's coming is the "MEMEME" age. People want things and they want them now, and there is no discipline.