Originally posted by Grandma
Yeah, honey, it was on Nag Hammadi source where I found it. I tried to copy it off and paste it over but I guess I didn't do something right. I'm still learning this stuff. LOL
Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Keep in mind also, the middle ground: Not that the Canonized message of Christ is more or less true then the Gnostic message of Christ; they were both the messages of Christ. I am not saying this reflects my stance, but it may for some?
Keep in mind also, one could (as in personal interpretation) extrapolate that Christ was a gnostic based purely on the biblical interpretation of canonized scripture alone. Since to be a gnostic, means one has Gnosis, or at least, ones spiritual aim is Gnosis. *I am being very general*
Anyways, I look forward to participating as I feel I am one of the ATS members that knows a decent amount about Christian Gnosticism and Gnosticism in general. *not sure how many there are here? I have seen a few! *.
For now I am off to sleep. Tomorrow I will read my Gnostic Bible (hey that's literally the title ) for a refresher, then i'll contribute.
[edit on 21-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]
Originally posted by pieman
okay, 'twas me making the claim. before we get bogged down in detail, my premise for making the claim is that gnosticism, being a disparate and fractured belief system, can be defined in a very broad way by saying it is a belief system who's proponents believe that we each contain a divine spark by nature and are capable of direct communion with the divine and becoming christ like, that is, free of sin. they tend to believe that the earth, and earthly goods, are the property and tools of evil and that to enter into heaven, the trapping of these things must be shed.
rather than claiming that christ was a follower of any particular gnostic belief system, this has been done and leads to confusion and ambiguous results, i would argue that christs preaching was of a nature that suggests a gnostic outlook rather than an orthodox outlook.
the orthodox view, without question, says that humans are born in sin and can never be free of sin. it says that no direct communication can be had with the divine and it says that we only receive the divine spark with baptism, which is the holy ghost. it says that the world is neutral and that worldly goods hold no real impediment to heaven in and of themselves.
i do not believe this is in line with christs teaching and i believe i can show this based solely on the four canonical gospels.
in my considered opinion, the various scholarly details aren't particularly worth discussing unless the basic nature of christs teachings can be shown to be either orthadox or gnostic.
Originally posted by Mr Anunnaki
Gnosticism also recognizes the sacred feminine. Something the church does not do. Remember every thing has it's opposite. Gnostics also do not categorize Mary Magdalen as a whore, but rather as Jesus' wife. Remember Jesus was a teacher and a devout Jew. He would have been married according to Rabbinic law. Peter and Paul were notorious women hater's, and have influenced the church towards this view as well. I think Jesus did not share their view on this. There are many more reasons why I think gnosticism deserves another look.IMHO
Originally posted by Grandma
It was this text. Please tell me why his work should be dismissed. I am not all that certain he is wrong in all he says.
I asked the Savior, “Lord, will every soul be saved and enter the pure light?”
He replied, “You are asking an important question, one it will be impossible to answer for anyone who is not a member of the unmoved race. They are the people upon whom the Spirit of Life will descend and the power will enable them to be saved and to become perfect and worthy of greatness. They expunge evil from themselves and they will care nothing for wickedness, wanting only that which is not corrupt. They will achieve freedom from rage, envy, jealousy, desire, or craving.”
“The physical body will negatively effect them. They wear it as they look forward to the time when they will meet up with those who will remove it. Those people deserve indestructible eternal life. They endure everything, bearing up under everything that happens so that they can deserve the good and inherit life eternal.”
Then I asked him, “Lord, what about the souls who didn’t do these things even though the Spirit of Life’s power descended on them?“
He answered, “If the Spirit descends to people they will be transformed and saved. The power descends on everyone and, without it, no one can even stand up. After they are born, if the Spirit of Life increases in them, power comes to them and their souls are strengthened. Nothing then can leave them astray into wickedness. But if the artificial spirit comes into people, it leads them astray.”
Then I said, “Lord, when souls come out of the flesh where do they go?”
He replied, smiling, “If the soul is strong it has more of power than it has of the artificial spirit and so it flees from wickedness. With the assistance of the Incorruptible One that soul is saved and it attains eternal rest.”
I then asked him, “Lord, what of the souls of the people who do not know whose people they are? Where do they go?”
He responded, “In those people the artificial spirit has grown strong and they have gone astray. Their souls are burdened, drawn to wickedness, and cast into forgetfulness.”
“When they come forth from the body, such a soul is given over to the powers created by the rulers, bound in chains, and cast into prison again. Around and around it goes until it manages to become free from forgetfulness through knowledge. And so, eventually, it becomes perfect and is saved.”
Originally posted by ben91069
Originally posted by Mr Anunnaki
Gnosticism also recognizes the sacred feminine. Something the church does not do.
I am gnostic, and I have been finding within myself more and more that at the last day when everything is complete that it is the woman or the 'outside/opposite' that plays the vital role in completing the man 'inside', just as Jesus predicted in his verse about the woman who washed his feet in oil and perfumes and dried them with her hair.
Symbolically the woman sanctifies the God son outwardly, showing him his errs and reconciling him back to his Father. In this way, she cleanses his lowest portions and reunites him to his position of authority.
The female aspect plays a crucial (if not irreplaceable) role in the sons of God mission while in the heart of the earth.
Originally posted by whiteraven
If Christ was Gnostic, and I believe he was in the purest sense, if my understanding is correct, was he not simply furthering the idea of "secret knowledge "...i.e. the Pearl of great Price ...with the idea of a balanced life...i.e. wine, wedding, celebration....and the idea of the Superman Spiritual guy......i.e. healings, raising the dead......bringing the whole human experience/trip both heavenly/spiritual as well as earthly/flesh to culmination...i.e. wine, woman and song???
edit for spelling and other stuff
[edit on 21-11-2008 by whiteraven]
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Antoher part of Gnostic text that resonates with me is the idea that it was NOT the MOST HIGH who brought the destruction of people by flood. The idea that there was a spirit below Thee Most High that only CLAIMED to be GOd....truly this spirit did believe thee was God because this spirit could not KNOW God because of the chaotic birth of this spirit by Sophia (the counterpart of Christ, the womb of God).This teaching would allow the Most High to ONLY BE OF LOVE AND GRACE with no capability to experience wrath, hate, anger, greed,or pride. This teaching resonates with me deeply.
Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
It's the real message...
The "holy church" drove the Gnostics, Cathars and a host of other truth tellers underground because the "holy church" wanted people to remain in spiritual darkness.
Originally posted by ghaleon12
About gnosticism being "secret", a large part of that was probably because they'd get killed if they practiced in openly. I've heard that Kabbalah went sort of underground for a long time until society was ready for its wisdom, and I think by "ready" they mean "will not hit us with sticks" lol. Although, you still see that in some of the middle eastern countries but that's another topic.
The question of whether Jesus was "gnostic" or not really isn't that important. To most gnostics, he was gnostic and that's all that really matters.