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Did Gnosticism try and Usurp Christianity or is it the Real Message of Christ.

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posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 05:15 PM
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I feel there are many things from each religion that claims it is 'FROM GOD' that shows a God that is not always loving. Even the Bible shows a God who can hate and kill with no hope for souls to seek Thee and find Thee.

Was Thee a loving God when the babes in Egypt were killed? What about the lands of people that were wiped off the face of the Earth so the Israelites could have their promised land? The idea of HELL period displays and idea that Gods love stops at some point. Does it not? Unless it is a cycle, we all get recycled and recycled, until we awake to our nature or else our soul will eventually become victim to the darkness (world of flesh) and cease to exists.

This is in response to Grandma but always love to hear all view points,
LV




posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Yeah, honey, it was on Nag Hammadi source where I found it. I tried to copy it off and paste it over but I guess I didn't do something right. I'm still learning this stuff. LOL



Love Ya,
Mom



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by Grandma
Yeah, honey, it was on Nag Hammadi source where I found it. I tried to copy it off and paste it over but I guess I didn't do something right. I'm still learning this stuff. LOL



Love Ya,
Mom

It looks like you got it from this page, which is, frankly, rather inaccurate and dismissive. LeoVirgo posted some relevant links to check out, but I warn you that all this talk of æons and ogdoads and hypostases have boggled the brains of Christian scholars for decades.



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by Grandma
 


I know it is time consuming, but I find it best to not rely on peoples own understandings of the text, but read the text yourself and weigh the vine from its seed.

If you run across a specific text that says this, let me know, I would love to read it. If there was any merit to this idea...mabey it would be that after a certain amount of time that a soul keeps getting kicked back into this world, its soul would loose some light (divine vibration) with each reincarnation. Eventually, it would seem as if body's were walking vessels with no light inside of them. If you ask me, this isnt that far from the truth. We see people here that have no concern what so ever with any sort of divine nature. Is it possible that some people have more of a spark of the divine then others? I think it is, through rebirth and duration of many lives. But, if this is the case, I would believe that we all start out with the same amount of divinity, its our own doings that would cause this spark to burn out like a flame in the wind.

LV



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


We have talked several times about God in the OT times. And I have a post on here somewhere where I tried to explain all the killing that God was doing. Paul says in Romans Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their heart.They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator. Paul says it was through the law we became conscious of sin. He also says that God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,,,,,,,,,,,,(or as the one who would turn aside the wrath of God, taking away sin) through faith in His blood. Now, I know you don't like to think of Jesus as being the perfect blood sacrifice that was needed to bridge the gap between man and God. Sin came into the world by man (Adam) and sin was won by a man (Jesus).

Now, I sometimes wonder if maybe Moses got a little carried away with himself and did some things he should not have by the name of God. I don't know. It was written as it was written. I need to also remember that Satan was cast here upon this earth and would have loved nothing any better than to kill a bunch of people in the name of God. Again, I don't know and I again fall back to the scripture it is written as it is written. There is also a myth that I came across that said it was Pharaoh's own priests that hardened his heart to go after Moses and not God.

But there again we have Paul saying in Romans For the Scripture says to Pharaoh; I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

Now, I know this does not sit well with you my dear daughter. But, it is the best I can do.

What I do KNOW and believe is that the Lord has a Plan and all things do at some point reach out to that plan.

Jesus came to us as the Son of The Living God. He showed us His Father's great mercy, unending love, forgiveness, faith, and tore the veil in half in the Temple so that we can reach the Father ourselves. We do not need a priest like Aaron to go to the Holies of Holies for us. WE CAN DO IT OURSELVES! And have joy in our hearts and fellowship with our Father in heaven above.

That is what matters, is it not? What joy unspeakable and full of glory, full of glory! That is the kind of joy I'm talking about! Stay focused on that.


All my love,
Mom (grandma)



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 07:39 PM
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Dearest Mother,

Yes, we have talked endlessly till blue in the face on such matters.

We must look at scriptures, for without them, we wouldn't even know Christ at all. I think we should all be careful of what we claim we believe and what we claim we 'know'.

Many followers of Christ will tell others that they believe in an all loving God. This does trouble me because then they will turn and say, 'well Im not God but he must of had a good reason to kill people and need the blood of animals to forgive us'. I say, lets not throw logic out the _..we are talking about THEE MOST HIGH ALMIGHTY above all things....I strongly believe there is no requirement of blood by God, never was and never will be. I also believe this is the masses falling into the trap of a deception that God needs these things. THEE IS GOD...GOD NEEDS NOTHING OF THIS MATERIAL WORLD. I believe this with all my heart and soul, I truly find this is a grace mistake, to place this blood on God, for God, even in his name. Christ came and we killed him...so why not just mark that on the marker of blood atonement as well...at least it takes the blame off of us, because then we can say, well it had to be, there was no other way, it was inevitable.

The gnostics resonates with me for this very reasons. They teach that the MOST HIGH is not, ever was, nor ever will be, capable of wrath, greed, jealousy or pride. Everyone wants to jump up and quote a scripture...but its not even logical to me. I find that man has fallen, just as always....in thinking God needed us to kill animals for our wrongs.

To think that a simple pure heart and awareness of ones actions wasn't enough for God, they had to go find animals so God could consume the blood. It makes me cringe to think so many follow this without using any logic....they follow it all because the Bible says it....along with God ordering man to kill man. This makes my heart ache. But if it works for you...then each to their own, just as you have allowed me to my own...I thank you for that.

Love me



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by Eleleth
 


It was this text. Please tell me why his work should be dismissed. I am not all that certain he is wrong in all he says.


Grandma



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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I'm a gnostic Christian and being a gnostic is about having a more relationship with God and challenging yourself and Church leaders etc. We believe that everyone can be like Christ and not just Christ himself. Of course Christ is unique because of the obvious.



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Keep in mind also, the middle ground: Not that the Canonized message of Christ is more or less true then the Gnostic message of Christ; they were both the messages of Christ. I am not saying this reflects my stance, but it may for some?

Keep in mind also, one could (as in personal interpretation) extrapolate that Christ was a gnostic based purely on the biblical interpretation of canonized scripture alone. Since to be a gnostic, means one has Gnosis, or at least, ones spiritual aim is Gnosis. *I am being very general*

Anyways, I look forward to participating as I feel I am one of the ATS members that knows a decent amount about Christian Gnosticism and Gnosticism in general. *not sure how many there are here? I have seen a few!
*.

For now I am off to sleep. Tomorrow I will read my Gnostic Bible (hey that's literally the title
) for a refresher, then i'll contribute.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]


As a gnostic Christian I think you put it very well.
I'm glad of this thread too because it's tough to find a place to talk about my religious beliefs.



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by pieman
okay, 'twas me making the claim. before we get bogged down in detail, my premise for making the claim is that gnosticism, being a disparate and fractured belief system, can be defined in a very broad way by saying it is a belief system who's proponents believe that we each contain a divine spark by nature and are capable of direct communion with the divine and becoming christ like, that is, free of sin. they tend to believe that the earth, and earthly goods, are the property and tools of evil and that to enter into heaven, the trapping of these things must be shed.

rather than claiming that christ was a follower of any particular gnostic belief system, this has been done and leads to confusion and ambiguous results, i would argue that christs preaching was of a nature that suggests a gnostic outlook rather than an orthodox outlook.

the orthodox view, without question, says that humans are born in sin and can never be free of sin. it says that no direct communication can be had with the divine and it says that we only receive the divine spark with baptism, which is the holy ghost. it says that the world is neutral and that worldly goods hold no real impediment to heaven in and of themselves.

i do not believe this is in line with christs teaching and i believe i can show this based solely on the four canonical gospels.

in my considered opinion, the various scholarly details aren't particularly worth discussing unless the basic nature of christs teachings can be shown to be either orthadox or gnostic.


Right. As a gnostic I do my best to better my relationship with God and to be more Christ like. Of course I do have a potty mouth so that is a bit hard for me haha. I try not to be boggled down by the physical world as much as your individual.



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 

Sweetheart:

The blood of Christ is on us. If we were not covered by it our sins would not be covered. I know it is hard to understand. And I do see your views and maybe I am just too old but my heart tells me what my spirit tells me.

I don't think so much on the OT much. I prefer to keep my mind on more heavenly things. And the song that sings in my heart with great joy for him loving one such as I.





Love you,
Mom



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Anunnaki
Gnosticism also recognizes the sacred feminine. Something the church does not do. Remember every thing has it's opposite. Gnostics also do not categorize Mary Magdalen as a whore, but rather as Jesus' wife. Remember Jesus was a teacher and a devout Jew. He would have been married according to Rabbinic law. Peter and Paul were notorious women hater's, and have influenced the church towards this view as well. I think Jesus did not share their view on this. There are many more reasons why I think gnosticism deserves another look.IMHO


I can remember ever since I was in high school never liking Paul. I guess the gnostic in me eh?
I do have a soft spot for Peter though. *shrug*



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by Grandma
It was this text. Please tell me why his work should be dismissed. I am not all that certain he is wrong in all he says.

Why? Because he is presenting broad speculation about a multifaceted movement as absolute fact. We know very little about the true origins of the movement. How better can I explain it? Here is the aforementioned excerpt from the Apocryphon of John:


I asked the Savior, “Lord, will every soul be saved and enter the pure light?”

He replied, “You are asking an important question, one it will be impossible to answer for anyone who is not a member of the unmoved race. They are the people upon whom the Spirit of Life will descend and the power will enable them to be saved and to become perfect and worthy of greatness. They expunge evil from themselves and they will care nothing for wickedness, wanting only that which is not corrupt. They will achieve freedom from rage, envy, jealousy, desire, or craving.”

“The physical body will negatively effect them. They wear it as they look forward to the time when they will meet up with those who will remove it. Those people deserve indestructible eternal life. They endure everything, bearing up under everything that happens so that they can deserve the good and inherit life eternal.”

Then I asked him, “Lord, what about the souls who didn’t do these things even though the Spirit of Life’s power descended on them?“

He answered, “If the Spirit descends to people they will be transformed and saved. The power descends on everyone and, without it, no one can even stand up. After they are born, if the Spirit of Life increases in them, power comes to them and their souls are strengthened. Nothing then can leave them astray into wickedness. But if the artificial spirit comes into people, it leads them astray.”

Then I said, “Lord, when souls come out of the flesh where do they go?”

He replied, smiling, “If the soul is strong it has more of power than it has of the artificial spirit and so it flees from wickedness. With the assistance of the Incorruptible One that soul is saved and it attains eternal rest.”

I then asked him, “Lord, what of the souls of the people who do not know whose people they are? Where do they go?”

He responded, “In those people the artificial spirit has grown strong and they have gone astray. Their souls are burdened, drawn to wickedness, and cast into forgetfulness.”

“When they come forth from the body, such a soul is given over to the powers created by the rulers, bound in chains, and cast into prison again. Around and around it goes until it manages to become free from forgetfulness through knowledge. And so, eventually, it becomes perfect and is saved.”


[edit on 21-11-2008 by Eleleth]



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:22 PM
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It's the real message...

The "holy church" drove the Gnostics, Cathars and a host of other truth tellers underground because the "holy church" wanted people to remain in spiritual darkness.



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by Mr Anunnaki
Gnosticism also recognizes the sacred feminine. Something the church does not do.


I am gnostic, and I have been finding within myself more and more that at the last day when everything is complete that it is the woman or the 'outside/opposite' that plays the vital role in completing the man 'inside', just as Jesus predicted in his verse about the woman who washed his feet in oil and perfumes and dried them with her hair.

Symbolically the woman sanctifies the God son outwardly, showing him his errs and reconciling him back to his Father. In this way, she cleanses his lowest portions and reunites him to his position of authority.

The female aspect plays a crucial (if not irreplaceable) role in the sons of God mission while in the heart of the earth.


Right. Everything Jesus did had some sort of spiritual messages.



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by whiteraven

If Christ was Gnostic, and I believe he was in the purest sense, if my understanding is correct, was he not simply furthering the idea of "secret knowledge "...i.e. the Pearl of great Price ...with the idea of a balanced life...i.e. wine, wedding, celebration....and the idea of the Superman Spiritual guy......i.e. healings, raising the dead......bringing the whole human experience/trip both heavenly/spiritual as well as earthly/flesh to culmination...i.e. wine, woman and song???

edit for spelling and other stuff

[edit on 21-11-2008 by whiteraven]


I've never thought of it that way. But I sure have intuited it that way.

Wow, you just blew my mind.

Sometimes my most "religious" experiences, where my charisma and insight and instincts have been on high have been when I have a few drinks, don't worry about tomorrow, and just be real (without conditioning you could kinda say).



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by Grandma
 


Again, this is someones interpretation of many texts. I find it would be just as dangerous to follow every gnostic text word for word just as I find it dangerous to follow any material of religious value, word for word. A man wrote all text that are here with us today. We have to sift it to feel if there is truth. God gave us our intuition( inner eye of light) for a reason!!

Read it, sift it, weigh it, measure it. Dont take my word for it or anyone's else s word for it. I think you will find your point hard to back up once you read through most of these text. If it does talk about men with no souls, how often do we see this is written, is it within more then one text, is it in many text, does it seem to be a base of the gnostic belief or is it something one man took from one text and ran with it? ( again, I have no remembrance of reading such teachings). Your reading someones sum of gnostics, and just like Christianity, there are various beliefs with the same foundation. The foundation, to me, is that God gave us our logical mind and our intuitive heart for a reason...for Thee to work through us, shine through us, live through us...as well as, to weigh Thees vines so we can find Thees seed. Seed of Love, as I say...many say this without really believing it because they then back up teachings of a God that can hate and kill.

Sorry if some think Im being too blunt here, but my mother and I have had this convo so many times, we tend to be very honest with each other...I hope that in my convo with my mother I have not offended anyone. Im just stating what is in my heart....

I do remember reading that only a certain few will be able to understand these teachings...I see this no more or less unfair then what revelations says when stating...only a few shall be chosen.

Peace to all,
LV



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Antoher part of Gnostic text that resonates with me is the idea that it was NOT the MOST HIGH who brought the destruction of people by flood. The idea that there was a spirit below Thee Most High that only CLAIMED to be GOd....truly this spirit did believe thee was God because this spirit could not KNOW God because of the chaotic birth of this spirit by Sophia (the counterpart of Christ, the womb of God).This teaching would allow the Most High to ONLY BE OF LOVE AND GRACE with no capability to experience wrath, hate, anger, greed,or pride. This teaching resonates with me deeply.

Peace,
LV


I thought Sophia was supposed to be knowledge?



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
It's the real message...

The "holy church" drove the Gnostics, Cathars and a host of other truth tellers underground because the "holy church" wanted people to remain in spiritual darkness.

I am surprised by how positive the attitude is towards the Gnostics in this forum. I am neither a Christian nor a Gnostic, but I find them rather fascinating and admire them as perhaps history's first real truthseekers and spiritual anarchists.



posted on Nov, 21 2008 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by ghaleon12
About gnosticism being "secret", a large part of that was probably because they'd get killed if they practiced in openly. I've heard that Kabbalah went sort of underground for a long time until society was ready for its wisdom, and I think by "ready" they mean "will not hit us with sticks" lol. Although, you still see that in some of the middle eastern countries but that's another topic.

The question of whether Jesus was "gnostic" or not really isn't that important. To most gnostics, he was gnostic and that's all that really matters.


Well if your average Christian was abused and beaten like Stephen was daily then imagine how it would've been for gnostics at the time.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by LittlePinky82]





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