Alien Abduction, UFO's, Extraterrestrials, Discussion.

There is a huge amount of factual and physical data around, and it is "interesting" how some of the factual physical evidence is "hand picked" to support a particular claim or theory depending on who is telling the story
I have spent and continue to spend a lot of time sifting through a lot of reports and claims in order to understand what is going on in the world.

On the issue of alien abduction and whether it is truly alien or human created, the physical data, correlated stories and other supporting information (like testimonies & videos) and testimonies from medical professionals has led me to believe that there is more than one thing going on.

This is not just one phenomena, but several things being mixed up and confused (often deliberately).
I could write a book on this and where to find a lot of supporting data, but the bottom lines I have found so far are

a) there are genuine alien encounters, sometimes abduction
b) Real alien implants exist, and have been catalogued, analyzed etc and there is more than one type. Some appear to be metallic in nature, some, a form of biological or semi-biological device
c) Human "black" ops using "alien abduction" as a cover for genetic experimentation and manipulation – this is where I agree with the originator of this thread
d) some joint human "black operations" and alien projects going on
e) associated with (c) above, human/alien/animal hybrids used to create the illusion of aliens, They are used as obedient/programmable workforce or foot soldiers – these are often mistaken as aliens.
f)There are people out there who use the alien abduction theme as an attention getter
g) There are people out there that through the use of drugs or medical conditions (no fault of their own) do hallucinate or mix up fact and fiction and cannot tell the difference
h) There are people out there who are very suggestible, and will gladly "lap-up" the alien abduction theme as an explanation to things in their lives and fool themselves in to believing things about their own lives which are not true
i) There are people out there that will use and abuse suggestible people (vulnerable as in f&g&h) , and manipulate them for their own ends, not in the interests of the “victim”

It is in the interests of all the black ops, to blame everything on the aliens or label victims as nutcases. On both accounts they are successful amongst the majority of the population. Even actual craft, actual bodies and tissue samples are ignored or made out to be fake. Also activities to bring information into public view like the disclosure program, are not taken seriously despite such "credible and professional" people both military and civilian coming forwards with their stories and evidence. This is the success of the disinformation and ridicule exercises.

So I do not think we have an “either vs or” scenario, but a mix of truths and that mix is used with great success to hide the worst of truth in public view.

reply to post by Moegli

Actually you misunderstood what foremanator is trying to say. The monkeys can't prove they were abducted by a higher intelligence since there are factors involved which would make it quite impossible. The Human's physical and technological prowess, precise/accurate methods at capturing a monkey and the monkey's inability to fully articulate the experience is a huge burden to carry at trying to communicate it.

So assuming aliens are responsible for some abduction cases, your trying to make the point that Humans with our pity means of circumventing/predicting the moves of these advanced beings are able to take pictures, shoot one, break their necks (if they have it), tripping them over (if they have legs), poke their eyes, break their nose etc.

How very Human of you.

No actually I didn’t misunderstand, I understood perfectly the analogy that was being made but you just have to think a little deeper, I could say that the devil is going around abducting people and that he has all the power on the earth to fool anyone he wants including implanting them with false memories so they believe they were contacted/abducted by aliens but where does that leave us at the end of the day? It all comes down to hard evidence and proof, so you can believe that ALIENS are all powerful all you want but it doesn’t change a thing because that could be said about anything. IT WAS THE DEVIL.
See what I mean.

reply to post by NavalFC

you know, your funny. Skepticism and critical thinking are good things, and I was with you at first, but then all you did was try to deny the Alien abduction phenomena as proofless, then insert your own BS conspiracy theory, which, also has no proof (MILABS? the US military does not stage Alien abductions..)
So arent you kind of a hypocrite?

I don’t believe you have followed the entire thread, anything I have initially suggested is speculation/hearsay only a theory I have suggested going over all the possibilities of what the ALIEN phenomena could really be all about. That is what this discussion is for to bring up possibilities and ideas because there is NO PROOF out there to be found that it was the ALIENS and there are many other possibilities that sound much more reasonable before jumping to the final conclusion that it was ALIENS end of story. You can’t believe everything you read, for all we know most abduction stories are cover ups and/or disinformation agents to intentionally mislead the public. Do you see that is another possibility that can’t yet be fully ruled out among many others. But in the end of the day it all comes back down to that 5 letter word again PROOF.

reply to post by InfaRedMan

How Hilarious & Sad You Are!

I could say the same thing for many of the believers here who go on blind faith of believing everything they read. I truly believe you have all been deceived about the ALIEN phenomena but I won’t stoop to your level.

You make a point of throwing numbers about as proof to your theory that Aliens are not abducting people and then you have the audacity to say that it's MILABS.

Well, using your same figures and methodology, show me one proof positive of MILABS!

Have I ever said I have proof? How have I claimed to disprove abductions, my original post does not say that at all, in fact I used a diagram of the world population just to show how many people are really out there in comparison to the tiny few who have claimed to be contactees/abductees so we can all get a ball park figure. From 6.7 BILLION to a few hundred there are many people left in between, and many other possibilities that need to be ruled out when it comes to the alien abduction phenomena. Clearly you have not followed the entire thread or you would see that I have never claimed proof positive of a thing and the MILABS is merely a theory/possibility among many other possibilities out there.

Did you realize that there are just as many if not more reports out there of people claiming to see Jesus, Buddha, God, Bigfoot as there are people claiming to see ALIENS.

There are many other very convincible stories of people swearing on their lives they were taken to heaven or hell. But can it be proven is the question? This is what it all comes down to folks and you should all know better, you can continue to believe anything you want about ALIENS but your belief is based upon stories, movies, books and what you have been told. Who is to say that all of that information is really accurate? Some of you may come on here claiming you have been abducted yourself and know 100%, well that’s great I am not trying to insult you only get to the bottom of the phenomena in a discussion so please share these experiences with the rest of us then let’s talk about the evidence and what can be proven.

I would like to believe in ALIENS myself but the fact is there is just not enough evidence out there to PROOVE that theory. There are more people out there claiming there is a heaven and hell and Jesus lives then there are people claiming to have been contacted by ALIENS and we could never prove there is a heaven or hell or Jesus or Devil even with the billions of believers. Let’s broaden our minds here for a moment and think about it.

reply to post by Jb0311NY

Your math had no function beyond you saying"let's just say"
wnYea like let me say there is 6.7 bil people(p) p x A-a blah blah blah....yaawn that all proves nothing.

Very true statement, the math proves nothing and it wasn’t mean to prove a thing.
It was used to show everyone how many people there are in the world 6.7 BILLION in comparison to 0000000000000000.1% or a few people that have claimed contact and abduction experiences with ALIENS. (That is all it was used for)

Adjourned!



[edit on 11-11-2008 by Master_Skeptic]

Originally posted by Master_Skeptic

I was implying to anyone out there, an average citizen, military makes no difference. Let’s take Roswell as an example, it was an average citizen who found the UFO down, just an average farmer on a ranch. So if this story is true we can see it is possible for these UFO’s to come crashing down, that leaves a lot of space out there for average citizens to come across alien bodies from crashed down UFO’s doesn‘t it? 70yrs now with nearly 7 BILLION people in the world you would think someone would have come up with something by now. A crashed UFO perhaps, hidden it away with alien bodies, a little DNA of an alien or a body part, something not of this world? Anything, but as we can see NOTHING has been produced. Zip

Roswell, has been established as an 'experiment' by some researches. With the viability of the 'aliens' being synthetic; although, not of earth-origin. This is what lends so well to the gov'ts telling that it was dummies used in high-altitude experiments, along with weather balloons. They like balloons. Seems, according to some, this model was injected to determine human reaction to actual contact. It was abysmal.

As far as DNA, quite a few world scientist claim there is just that. However, popularised myth lends to dye within some sort of major organ. Which surely would lead to death of the subject. True desire, that one. This is ambiguous reasoning, but I don't try and persuade a crowd that looks at silly notions so as to distract.

Inhabitation has been resolved to be possible. With concentrations of energies well recorded at targeted subjects. Yielding nothing more than the occasional "quote me on this" Rambo cinematic slosh. Again, ambiguous, but with dullards it'll be the best I give.

What will be interesting is when Central Europe finishes its research into this area with acquired data. Resulting from slipped laptops, compilations by other branches and institutions, and the proverbial "leaks" which were prominent a short time ago. Where, it was very common for information to grace the air waves. Which, by the way, has been counteracted with proliferate meanderings of non-hostile experimentation yielding nothing more than a 'soy-based' effect.

One thing is for certain. They are engrossed, the gov't, with this topic. And, counter claims that they are misleading by nature at intended 'victims' leads one to believe that they are all-encompassing. However, this do-all-see-all approach has a major drawback. In that, it could be considered inert on a tactical scale. And, if looked at in a step-back approach, is nothing more than a soothing agent for what some have been exposed to. Provisional mind-set. With true events resulting in haphazard behaviours, and great reaction from controlling bodies. Whereas this tantalising, recreational events are more like a carnival approach. Which must provide much relief that 'they' are in control...

Guys guys guys...really! The OP is not asking for some pissing contest but he is asking to "what if there are no aliens involved, but it is all terrestral". See it as an exercise. He asks valid questions and the fact that this is a conspiracy site should actually mean that people are willing to look at all sorts of options.

As far as we here on ATS know (unless you know something and are not producing the evidence) there is no evidence of aliens neither of weird expirements done by humans on humans and then covered by "it wasn't me it was the alien" excuse.

All we have are hints, allegations, smoke (so where is the fire and more important what is the fire?).

I myself have seen weird things in the sky, including an object with a red and green light hovering in the vicinity of another flat. I have no clue what it was. It is simple to pull out the "ah I do not know what it is, and since spooks are not fashionable anymore let me try option aliens". The truth is that I do not know anything, besides the phenomenon I saw.

My personal idea about UFO's is that I am leaning towards terrestrial and based on weird science: quantum physics. It was in the 30-ies that the theory as known today was finally formed and still scientists have no clue what it is all about really.

Mankind is inquisitive and hungry for power. I can not but assume that new scientific theories are going to be tested to see what technology can be developed based on them.

STOP

Please can we stop a moment and have a recap; I am going dizzy.
I have been trying to follow this thread but with all these quote of quotes I am totally lost.

From reading this we can come to the following conclusions?

There are some posters who

1. are enjoying popcorn and a beer
2. think that aliens and Milabs is a load of rubbish.
3. believe that the USA government is behind some abductions
3. believe that physical aliens are behind some abductions
4. believe that inter dimensional beings are behind some abductions
5. believe that they are skeptics
6. believe that they are researchers
7. believe that they are experts
8. believe that they have been abducted
9. think that this is posted in the wrong forum

have I missed anything important out?

I think there are two questions that has not been answered, unless I missed it.
1. Have any abductees brought back bodies, hair and DNA samples of their abductors either MILAB or aliens?

2. Have any monkeys brought back bodies, hair and DNA samples of their abductors?

Meanwhile I will walk away and clear my head.

reply to post by MrPenny

Originally posted by Master_Skeptic
There are many more rational, logical, down to earth alternatives folks..…

True statement.

And here;

(The Elite) Illuminati exist in my book no if’s or buts about it.

Ok I’m stretching it here, but you clearly haven’t followed the entire thread because if you did you would see that I'm using this position as a theory making an argument showing that there are other alternative possibilities out there other than ALIEN.

There are many other possibilities out there for this phenomena, are you saying it was the ALIENS?

Please enlighten us if you have found something to add to this discussion?

I'm mystified by the constant linking of Bill Nye photos. Is it some kind of obscure editorial comment?

Actually it’s my way of baiting a few of you into the discussion. The photo is no doubt annoying and sometimes it does the trick, I used to be into marketing once a long long time ago in a far far away galaxy. I AM AN ALIEN.





[edit on 11-11-2008 by Master_Skeptic]

Just some questions I'd like to post to you to counter a piece of your post:

What about the cases reported before we had advanced military technology?

What about the cases reported in ancient times?

The cave drawings of small people w/ bubble-shaped helmets on?

What about Ezekiel's UFO sighting?

What about the drawings of strange craft over the skies of renaissance Europe when no such machine should have/did exist?

What about the Dogon people and their knowledge of astronomical data they should never have known?

I'm not trying to flame you at all here - but I'm just pointing out that if you're going to include numbers for the past 70 years and lack of evidence - you have to remember the UFO phenonemon didn't "start" after the Roswell crash - or even during WWII (cite - Foo Fighters) - I'm talking since time immemorial, people have reported unexplainable phenomena in the skies over Earth.

We can't hope to discount every human being that has ever claimed to have had an interaction with extraterrestrials as being military black ops or stuff like that, man.

I'm like you -

Out of the abduction cases that are reported, I always am the largest skeptic I know, but when it comes down to the wire - if you read into it, when these people are yanked out of their bed in the middle of the night - they aren't like you or me.... they don't stop to think - let me grab some skin from that grey - or - let me snatch this metallic instrument from the ship - they're scared to death and at the same time not believing what's happening to them.. (be honest, if you were abducted tonight, you'd probably crap your superman undies - lol). I don't know whether they're real or not, but the same number you quote as being a non-excuse for no evidence I like to quote as being an indicator that not everyone is lying or experiencing a cover-up.

Dunno.

I hope we one day find the answers we're all looking for.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by mf_luder]

[edit on 11-11-2008 by mf_luder]

I think the fact that we exist as humans on a planet called earth is PROOF that aliens exist. To think that we are the only life forms in a never ending universe is crazy. We exist therefore life exists on other planets. That life form may be very different to us, they may be interdimensional, telepathic etc but the the evidence is here, it is US!!!!

reply to post by Master_Skeptic

Oh really why doesn’t’ it leave a lot of space out there, does every citizen and government report directly to you upon a UFO crashing down? How would you know?

i must be dealing with a child here because you can't even follow along with the conversation.

you are the one that implied that nobody has come forward with proof and now your asking me how would i know and does everyone report to me ?

this is what you said

that leaves a lot of space out there for average citizens to come across alien bodies from crashed down UFO’s doesn‘t it? 70yrs now with nearly 7 BILLION people in the world you would think someone would have come up with something by now.

the jury has reached a verdict and have found you guilty of not knowing what the heck you are talking about

good luck no point in carrying on with you

reply to post by easynow


Not to mention that space is so massively huge to think that we should be 'expected' to find a crashed ship on Earth is beyond me. If these beings are visiting Earth - I'm sure the ones that are flying through our atmosphere are well-trained and not prone to be downed or leave evidence behind. The ones that have done so are either flukes or did so on purpose.

Quick Note:

I’m glad to see some of you are getting involved in this thread, it’s open for discussion in regards to the alien abductions, UFO’s and extraterrestrial phenomena.

Let me make this clear, I am not here to disprove ALIENS, I want to believe myself and have been thoroughly studying this for a very long time now so if your going to start presenting evidence to me I’m sure that I have already gone over that evidence, but please if you feel you have secret hard evidence that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt share it.

So my position is clear, I don’t have all the answers and I believe neither can the rest of you have all the answers, this is an open discussion to further talk about all the possibilities out there of the ALIEN phenomena, extraterrestrials is of course a possibility that cannot be ruled out. But to be fair on the subject we should look at all other possibilities out there as well don’t you think?

The ball is now in your court.
Let’s talk about it.

Originally posted by Master_Skeptic
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

I could say the same thing for many of the believers here who go on blind faith of believing everything they read. I truly believe you have all been deceived about the ALIEN phenomena but I won’t stoop to your level.

Here you go making bold generalizations again. Anyone who's been here a while knows that I don't subscribe to majority of abduction reports. So don't place me in that category. The point of my whole post was in relation to MILABS.

Talking about stooping, shall I provide a link to your post from last night? You know... the one that got closed down? And probably the reason why your on negative points!

Hell I'll do it anyway... Check this for stooping people!

Aliens and Spaceships, Believers seek Medical Attention.

Back on Topic:

To suggest MILABS may be a reasonable alternate explanation is just as ludicrous IMHO. Your opening a whole new can of worms. That in itself suggests that we have already devised workable antigrav technologies.. and above that, instead of using them in a theater of war where the lives of our soldiers could be saved, including billions of dollars - we use them to create pretty light shows, scare the bejesus out of people and take them from their beds for a few mind games in halloween garb. Not exactly logical.

In fact you make this generalization in your OP and there seems to be no theory attached, more a personal belief of your own. Read below:

Originally posted by Master_Skeptic
There is one thing in common with most UFO reports and cases, you will notice the military is usually always involved in one way or another.

Nope, I've never noticed that! BTW.. "usually always"? Two different things aren't they?

Anyhow, your backing off now by saying they're only theories. Your language in the Op does not suggest that at all... Don't make me pick it apart for you!

Pfft!.... Just another attention seeker in a bad suit!

IRM

[edit on 11/11/08 by InfaRedMan]

I keep seeing the word PROOF....

There is a lot of proof about, but it is useless if people choose to disregard it or deliberately destroy it

Take the Dr Jonathan Reed encounter story

He had as proof....

a) 3rd party witnesses to the being he had thought he had killed
b) Flesh & Blood samples - these were 3rd party anaylsied and the DNA showed a human/dolphin/turtle hybrid !
c) He had photos, including with "red eye" showing it was not a model !
d) He had loads of video & audio
e) He had physical artifacts taken from the creature

Now how much more do people want as proof of something going on ? even if a living non-human being walked on stage next to obama - would anyone belive it ?

Actually this is one of the encounter cases that had evidence to suggest that he was not dealing with an alien, rather a genetic experiment ! - have a serious look at this one in the context of this thread - it holds some key answers and challenges !

To the OP:

I see you like working with numbers. Very well...let's work with 1. Yep, that's the number we're working with, the number 1. Out of 6,700 people being abducted, let's say 1 person is telling the truth. I mean...someone has to be telling the truth...right? So, where does that leave you?

But, now, the problem arises, suppose what's abducting them isn't alien in nature...but man made. Well, that's a possibility, as you suggest. The problem with the truth is this...if you believe something to be true...it probably is, but that doesn't make it true. If I get abducted by men in black suits and rayban shades...but I'm pumped full of drugs...I may identify them as an alien race, and to me, they will appear that way. That is the story I will give. So, it is my truth, but not the truth.

So, dealing with numbers alone, I have concluded that people, or at least 1 person in 67,000 have been abducted by some kind of species. Because hey...numbers don't lie right. My argument of numbers proves high probability, but doesn't necessarily prove anything else. Your argument with numbers does the same...it proves or disproves nothing...except probability, in which case...it proves the same as my probability, that people are being abducted, or at least 1 person in human history has been abducted. Not so?

In regards to the lack of evidence you claim that there is, I say to you...you are at the home of UFO evidence. That's right...right here on ATS you can find remarkable information/evidence, granted you're open minded enough to go look for it, and also consider all the evidence presented to you; not just the evidence that doesn't seem to make sense.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by sdrawkcabII]

reply to post by sjb5000


Hardly! Jonathan Reed ... (I mean Rutter) is the one of the biggest con artists in UFO history and deservedly earns his place in the UFO Hall of Shame.

Read more about Dr (I'm not really a Doctor) Reed... (I mean Rutter) here at UFO Watchdog:

Dr Jonathan (Rutter) Reed

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan

Here you go making bold generalizations again.

I guess.

Anyone who's been here a while knows that I don't subscribe to majority of abduction reports.

Excellent, good for you.

Talking about stooping, shall I provide a link to your post from last night? You know... the one that got closed down? And probably the reason why your on negative points!

Hell I'll do it anyway... Check this for stooping people!

Aliens and Spaceships, Believers seek Medical Attention.

Thank you for the link, wasn’t it kinda funny? Not even in the slightest?

For those who took it seriously well I publicly apologize, I used to be into marketing in a far far away galaxy and felt it was a good way to pull some of you in.

Thanks for accepting my apology.

To suggest MILABS may be a reasonable alternate explanation is just as ludicrous IMHO. Your opening a whole new can of worms.

You could be right, but it still is a possibility to look it.

That in itself suggests that we have already devised workable antigrav technologies.. and above that,

We very well could have, I have many theories that some of you may have never considered before. I plan on presenting those in due time.

instead of using them in a theater of war where the lives of our soldiers could be saved, including billions of dollars -

Who says they are not being used? I believe they are in secret.

we use them to create pretty light shows, scare the be jesus out of people and take them from their beds for a few mind games in halloween garb. Not exactly logical.

Not it doesn’t sound logical to me either, that was kinda your idea. I think there is much more to it than what you have suggested.

Originally posted by Master_Skeptic
There is one thing in common with most UFO reports and cases, you will notice the military is usually always involved in one way or another.

I’m only human , I could be wrong but I’m under the impression that fractions of the secret military are involved one way or another with most alien phenomena whether we see it or not. I believe they go unadvertised so we don‘t really hear about it, now I may not be referring to our immediate government military but I believe there are secret compartmentalized groups such as black operations that are assigned to cover this kind of stuff up. This is only my opinion and I could be wrong.

Anyhow, your backing off now by saying they're only theories. Your language in the Op does not suggest that at all... Don't make me pick it apart for you!

They are only theories and if I made it sound more in my OP then I’m mistaken, I was hoping to work up a discussion and further discuss all the possibilities out there. I’m not here to bicker and argue I really would like to learn more and figure this all out if possible for myself, at least to my own satisfaction.

I have many other theories I would like to present here including alien theories so I hope we can discuss and I’m not just here to present my own theories, I was hoping everyone else could share theirs so we could put our heads together and possibly get closer to the truth.
If it’s extraterrestrials at the end of the day then I would be happy about it but as of right now I’m just as unsure as the rest of some of you. But let’s talk more about it.


[edit on 11-11-2008 by Master_Skeptic]

Originally posted by mf_luder
Just some questions I'd like to post to you to counter a piece of your post:

What about the cases reported before we had advanced military technology?

What about the cases reported in ancient times?

The cave drawings of small people w/ bubble-shaped helmets on?

What about Ezekiel's UFO sighting?

What about the drawings of strange craft over the skies of renaissance Europe when no such machine should have/did exist?

What about the Dogon people and their knowledge of astronomical data they should never have known?

I'm not trying to flame you at all here - but I'm just pointing out that if you're going to include numbers for the past 70 years and lack of evidence - you have to remember the UFO phenonemon didn't "start" after the Roswell crash - or even during WWII (cite - Foo Fighters) - I'm talking since time immemorial, people have reported unexplainable phenomena in the skies over Earth.

We can't hope to discount every human being that has ever claimed to have had an interaction with extraterrestrials as being military black ops or stuff like that, man.

I'm like you -

Out of the abduction cases that are reported, I always am the largest skeptic I know, but when it comes down to the wire - if you read into it, when these people are yanked out of their bed in the middle of the night - they aren't like you or me.... they don't stop to think - let me grab some skin from that grey - or - let me snatch this metallic instrument from the ship - they're scared to death and at the same time not believing what's happening to them.. (be honest, if you were abducted tonight, you'd probably crap your superman undies - lol). I don't know whether they're real or not, but the same number you quote as being a non-excuse for no evidence I like to quote as being an indicator that not everyone is lying or experiencing a cover-up.

Dunno.

I hope we one day find the answers we're all looking for.

Excellent points, I have a few theories about all of this and there are many other possibilites out there that still do not include Aliens. I will be posting some of those theories soon when I put them all together.

Just to give you an idea of a few of them.

Time Travellers,
Native terrans (An unknown intelligent species living here)
Interdimensional beings existing on and within earth.
A past civilization that separated themselves from us on earth and is much more technologically advanced than us possibly even an Aryan race or something similar but still living on earth in secret.Extraterrestrials of course is a good option but there are quite a few more out there that we can look at. Natural unexplained phenomena within our atmosphere we just don't understand yet being one of them.


[edit on 11-11-2008 by Master_Skeptic]