How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

I find myself wondering if, perhaps, the gnostic viewpoint on the subject is the origin of the human soul(?).

Man, I immediately thought that when I read someones post earlier about Sophia giving people concience (concious-ness).
That is what differentiates us from the animals. Even now, people do not consider animals as having souls, but humans do.

Originally posted by infinite
reply to post by lucidclouds

 

What does that prove? One act of sex than two children (who are not twins). Still, the Bible does not conclusively answer the question. But of course, Cain and Abel - just like the Garden of Eden - are based upon another Mesopotamian myth. Lilitu demon was a minor Sumerian wind demoness too.

To answer this question: How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

Easy, the whole story was based on Mesopotamian myths and reconstructed to suit the new religious order. Parts of the Bible, which missed the censors, point to the myths and mystical elements that were excluded from the universal teachings of the Bible.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by infinite]

Well, it clearly states that cain was born because of intercorse between adam and eve.

Thats all. You had mentioned that cain was the son of the serpent. But there you see he was not.

Originally posted by lucidclouds

Originally posted by infinite
Even the Bible gives evidence for it, Adam and Eve had sexual intercourse once and produced two children: Cain and Abel - who are not described as twins. In Jewish traditions, Cain* is the son of the serpent (Christian's believe he is the son of Satan.)
[edit on 21-12-2008 by infinite]

genesis 4:1,2:

"1 Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.” 2 Later she again gave birth, to his brother Abel."

This is taken from the Haggada. Louis Ginzberg’s Legends of the Jews.

Part 3
THE TEN GENERATIONS--THE BIRTH OF CAIN


“Wickedness came into the world with the first being born of woman, Cain, the oldest son of Adam. When God bestowed Paradise upon the first pair of mankind, He warned them particularly against carnal intercourse with each other. But after the fall of Eve, Satan, in the guise of the serpent, approached her, and the fruit of their union was Cain, the ancestor of all the impious generations that were rebellious toward God, and rose up against Him. Cain's descent from Satan, who is the angel Samael, was revealed in his seraphic appearance. At his birth, the exclamation was wrung from Eve, "I have gotten a man through an angel of the Lord."“

www.sacred-texts.com...

Satan’s influence affected the birth of Cain, in this legend, but it clearly states Adam was the physical father. By the way, the sexual act was not the original sin. Eve ate of the forbidden fruit before she had carnal desires for Adam. The fruit (knowledge) set things in motion. It’s like driving solo without a license, but that’s for another thread.

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
The serpent was Lilith, period.

Kabbalah made the depiction, but there is no evidence to suggest the serpent was Lilith. A Sumerian serpent god (which I discussed) is considered a possible candidate - but neither of them can be definitely associated to the serpent in the garden of eden.

Not Kabbalah, but the so called oral Torah. The part that's written down is but a fraction of the whole story. Genesis and the rest of the Torah and OT are Hebrew cultural cornerstones that becomes a temple when seen in the light of the WHOLE story, as it has been taught from mouth to mouth for millennia. This oral tradition has spawned many different directions within Judaism, for instance the Messianic and Enochian traditions, aswell as the Talmud and other commentary systems like the system of Parashas after Babylon.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
STEP FOUR is the realization that 'christianity' is NOT THE ONLY religion on this planet!!!! Let me repeat....'christianity' is NOT THE ONLY religion on this planet!!!!

I could be wrong but the original post was about the Bible. If the OP said the Torah, or the genesis account, then I could see what your saying.

Originally posted by cruzion

I find myself wondering if, perhaps, the gnostic viewpoint on the subject is the origin of the human soul(?).

Man, I immediately thought that when I read someones post earlier about Sophia giving people concience (concious-ness).

In the bible, Adam became an "animate soul" when God blew air through Adams nostrils and he started breathing. Breath and wind and smoke(!) is more or less synonymous with spirit in the bible, breath contains the spirit (or oxygen) that connects us fully with our creator and blood is the lifesustaining substance that contains life because of breath. Adam's "soul" would be the constellation I call "Son-of-man" (Ursa Major) and the clay sculpture God made before he later grew him from his petris-glass in his lab.

How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

Well how could You tempt Me into replying to this rediculous question if you were excommunicated from your job as supreme court atteurney? Well of course you could, and there would be no problem. And Lucifer (Lat.) is synonymous with Phosphorus (Gr.) and Venus (Eng.) the planet. Satan is related to the planet Saturn, while our good friend Jesus is connected to Venus. "Jesus the clear Phosphorus/Lucifer", it's even written in the bible if you read it in Greek or Latin. Lucifer is synonymous with the evening- and moningstar, Venus. From a geocentric view Venus rise and fall in the east (morningstar) and west (eveningstar, like this year) in a rather strict pentagonal pattern (the pentagram), while Saturn appears in near vacinity and/or conjunction of/with the sun in a hexagonal pattern (the hexagon or the Star of David).

Originally posted by lucidclouds

Originally posted by weedwhacker
STEP FOUR is the realization that 'christianity' is NOT THE ONLY religion on this planet!!!! Let me repeat....'christianity' is NOT THE ONLY religion on this planet!!!!

I could be wrong but the original post was about the Bible. If the OP said the Torah, or the genesis account, then I could see what your saying.

And what was the OP asking about in particular? Well, the story frem the Torah, in Bere# or Genesis where Eve is charmed by Lilit by her "soul" called the tree of wisdom. The context is obviouly in address to Christians, Jews and Muslims etc. who claim the biblical OT account on the origin of man and civilisation.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by lucidclouds

Originally posted by weedwhacker
STEP FOUR is the realization that 'christianity' is NOT THE ONLY religion on this planet!!!! Let me repeat....'christianity' is NOT THE ONLY religion on this planet!!!!

I could be wrong but the original post was about the Bible. If the OP said the Torah, or the genesis account, then I could see what your saying.

And what was the OP asking about in particular? Well, the story frem the Torah, in Bere# or Genesis where Eve is charmed by Lilit by her "soul" called the tree of wisdom. The context is obviouly in address to Christians, Jews and Muslims etc. who claim the biblical OT account on the origin of man and civilisation.

"Is this proof of the questionable validity of if not the bible itself, but maybe the multiple translations of it? Or proof that it was a tactic of a new regime to gain control of a multitude? "

This is the quote from the Original Post. Not from anyone but the OP.

It says the Bible... For your info, when someone talks about the BIBLE, they are speaking of the OT and the NT. If they are not they would say the torah or something else.

Well, the Torah or the Pentateuch is the first part of the OT. And the story in question is one of the first and most important stories of the Torah which contains the five Mosaic books. You won't find much on this story elsewhere in the Bible. I don't see your dilemma...

reply to post by lucidclouds


And the problem you and others have is that the Bible is based upon other Literature, borrowed from the Judaic texts and practices. A carry over of another religion with more books tacked on at the end.

As such, no matter what conversation you are having, CONTEXT must be considered. Otherwise, you've got tunnel vision and can't evaluate a thing properly.

The various roots and origins for the Genesis Tree of Knowledge incident are all relevant points to discuss when trying to answer if Lucifer in the Garden was propaganda.

If you want a specific, straight, simple answer then YES. Lucifer was never intended to be construed with the serpent in the Garden. Lucifer is Different from Satan. Satan may not have been the Serpent...

But if you're asking just about Lucifer? No, Lucifer was not the serpent and the blurring of the line to equate Lucifer to the tempter of Humanity is perhaps intentional.

Lucifer rebelled against God, which is equated as bad. However the Serpent was given no such edict, and the two are not synonymous. The Serpent was punished by God, but nowhere does it say that God forbade the Serpent from offering the fruits of the tree to the man and woman in the garden.

As such, by combining the two, the Serpent becomes someone who tried to overthrow God and was punished for their Hubris, only to turn and spite God by corrupting his finest creation. It makes sense to the modern day Christian because it's a consolidation of two separate acts that are accepted by the modern Christian as evil.

The other posts are attempting to convey the possible origins of the Genesis story itself, which I don't find to be a bad thing. It is often enlightening to see what similar origins can be dug up in either different religions, in the Jewish Oral Traditions, or whatnot.

satan is god´s alter ego when drunk,

lucifer was jesus in the good old days,

was god homosexual because of all the male bonding ?

why did he have a need to surround him self with a 99% male cast ?

does god have a penis or does he carry both genders ?

do angels have penises , do angels make babies ?

gehenna was a garbage dump with burning piles of poo and pigs got their food from gehenna hence no pigs alowed on moses table, you dont order food from hell.

jesus was gay and dated a harlot do disguies he´s wrong doings only to taste longinius spear in the end that gave him away ?

what has any of this to do with the serpent and eve ,

females dont have penises ,

logical asumption is she was curious as to what made it come alive, she boogies with adam and god got jelous cause god had reserved adam for him self , egoistic sod...

as to the apple , i guess adam had a deep voice so she took a mouth full.



, you have to take into consideration that back in the good old days they where drunk, stoned and just plain idiotic in some cases ,

but point is this



thruth of god is supprest

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Well, the Torah or the Pentateuch is the first part of the OT. And the story in question is one of the first and most important stories of the Torah which contains the five Mosaic books. You won't find much on this story elsewhere in the Bible. I don't see your dilemma...

My dilemma, as you call it, is that my answer to the OP is that in revelation, peter, RAISED AS A JEW, calls satan the original serpent the one misleading the entire inhabited earth.

So it does make a differance if the OP was adressing the Bible as a whole.

Also I have a question for you, does the jewish religion teach that satan was cast out of heaven?

reply to post by Haiku


Ezekiel 28:13-15

This scripture is mentioning either Lucifer/Satan/Serpent or the king of Tyre. I don't think the king of Tyre was a Cherub. I think the king of Tyre was being compared to the anointed angel that sinned in the beginning. This scripture explains that Satan was good at one time. He was originally posted in the garden of Eden as a guardian. He became bored and wanted to see an exciting turn of events. Satan took the red pill to see how far Alice's tunnel really went. (Compare the Matrix.)



[edit on 25-12-2008 by lostinspace]

How can you all talk about this when you dont know who God is.

If you dont know who God is. You cant do nothing but imagine or deny each others arguments.
You can use what ever phrase the bible has, but it has no wight if you cant argue it. If you could there would be no argument.

I bet that the once who argues against God dont even know how life came to be in the first place.

And i bet a lot of believers dont really believe that God created everything in 6 days. But they still argue text from the bible.

How is that going to make us understand?

It would be nice to have som logic to go with the arguments so we can get it. We can all read. But not understand.


[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

the bible doesnt actually say it (its a gimme) lucifer is actually a man who at the time doesnt feel the same as eve does about the living god, much in the same way heathens feel to this day at people who beleive, they figure do not what he says, and do not let live innosence, and offer doubt whenever all that jive dont work and anytime else just do anything that comforts just your own self instead of remaining of the spirit and keeping worthy of him, sound like some people you know?

Originally posted by lucidclouds

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Well, the Torah or the Pentateuch is the first part of the OT. And the story in question is one of the first and most important stories of the Torah which contains the five Mosaic books. You won't find much on this story elsewhere in the Bible. I don't see your dilemma...

My dilemma, as you call it, is that my answer to the OP is that in revelation, peter, RAISED AS A JEW, calls satan the original serpent the one misleading the entire inhabited earth.

So if I call you a grumpy old fart, it is automatically stated as a fact that you sparked the Big Bang? Besides, when did this Peter of yours say what he said, you're obviously not talking about the Bible, are you, for it's not in it...? Now here, let me rather try to explain for ya'all what exactly happened there in Eden or Paradise back. I'll try to be short. If you choose not to believe me, so be it, but this is how it goes....

The Elohim Jahveh creates Adam, Human, using an earthbound clay soul. His angel would be the Son of Man, his Arch, who later became Jesus, the second Adam, or like John the Baptist said about him: "Him who existed before I, comes after me". Like the gods, the first Adam was transgendered and was in effect able to procreate on his own. As his spouse God had made Lilit, the most desirable and wise supercreature. They lived together for quite a while, but Adam could never live with the humiliation every time Lilit refused to do as he wished. Adam went to his father and complained, saying he wanted to find his like but that noone in Eden fit him. Then God puts Adam to sleep and what happens is written in Genesis (if you write "Genesis" in Hebrew here on ATS you are corrected for talking dirty, what's wrong with # anyway? Without it the Earth would look worse than Mars): God takes out a rib-cell from Adam (Heb. Tsela is the exact same word as Gr. Cell). Then he closes the SHAMEFUL WOUND DOWN THERE with meat. From the cell God took out of Adam, God builds a woman who is later called Shevah, Eve, or woman/female, ishsjah, for like Adam said, she was taken out of Man, ish. When time was right and it was time for the new breed to enter into the circle of life, God called for Lilit, and they planned to set them up since their destinies were lain, Eve was probably pregnant at this time without knowing it. God said to Lilit: "Like Adam betrayed you, so shall you betray him, but be wise for I will judge in the case between you". And Lilit did her trick in the Tree they were told not to eat from that we know. But to understand what exactly happened when their eyes were opened, you must try to understand what it would be like to all of a sudden being able to evesdropping through God's grapevines, to see the future. To be or atleast feel responsibility for it, and through hammering signs into rock, change the course of the future; and history too, btw.... Well when God found them and saw that they had fallen for Lilit's game, he first cursed Eve with the rather bitter blessing of always haing Lilit's calendar with her, together with a couple of other reminders from the incidence, like having to give birth to fetuses that are really too big for us, and because it was Eve who agreed and not Adam, God cursed the Earth instead and promised Adam the fruits of this curse. Lilit was cursed to outlive her children and see them all die until dirt is all that is left. God handed out the fruits of science and progress -- sorrow and pain.

Then God ordered his highest ranking angel, his name at that time would be Ratziel and he was the wisest among the angels and gatekeeper of the highest heaven. He was to write down all there is to know about everything Man will ever do, and give the book to Adam. Raziel did this and Adam got the book. Part of the story goes that Adam never understood as much as an iota of what was in it. Anyway, an angel who was later called Satan was furious when he heared what God had done. How in heaven and on earth could he have given away the kind of knowledge that he had, and to a freaking halfbreed of a monkey, not even able to procreate on his own?!? It ended it the same way it always seems to end when Man has done something stupid and God tries to fix it up. -- With a war in heaven where Satan and a 3rd of the angels fights against those on God's side. Satan then snatched the book away from Adam, and humanity lost the Spark of Heaven. Together with his angels Satan lowered the book to the deepest deep of the ocean and locked it in chains. After that Satan has been seen walking earthbound never again being able to stand before his maker, not until his last day. From being a shiny cherub to becoming what he hated the most. A human being. We don't hear about the book until God realises that Adam has lost it. He figures out what happened and orders Leviathan the sea monster to retrieve it and give it back to and share it among the sons of Seth and the sons of Cain. This was at the time of Enoch, great grandfather of Noah and according to tradition it was Enoch who brought about and taught his children to read and write, and he was the first man to write a book. The original Spark of Heaven is lost forever, but it lives inside us.

If your story breaks very much from this story I wouldn't even bother reflecting on it.

What if i say that Lucifer walked and lived with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden all along. Would i be wrong! This makes more sense then anything.

If you read about creation. God made the heavens and the earth and so forth.
Before that there was nothing. Just God. God is the only thing that ever existed before the creation. So when God created he made both the spirit's(angels),Adam and Eve.

And at some point Lucifer(angel spirit) became jealous of Gods passion for Adam and Eve. And Adam and Eve's passion for God. That Lucifer at some point got so furious that he betrayed God by fooling Adam and Eve.

It makes sense. Adam and Eve had Fri will(spirit) in the garden of Eden. The spirit lust(Fri will) or what ever. Which we have when we have Free will. We have the ability to do sin. This is what challenge their faith to God.

What if the tree of life is the free will(spirit). Not really a fruit but a sin. Because what is the rest of the Bible about. It is about our sin, Our evil actions,and sinful thoughts.
We are borne sinners. Because we lie,steal,cheat,kill,blasphemy and so on. That's what we have to repent from to be saved. That is the sin of Adam and Even. Not from eating a fruit but committing a sin.

Don't focus on the fruit. But the sin committed.

Remember free will is also to do sin. But the spirit guides us so we know the difference between right and wrong. That's why God created the spirit(The Engels). And that is where Lucifer comes into the picture. Lucifer introduced sin to Adam and Eve. Because of is anger towards God.

When we die! What do we become! Well we become spirits.WHAT do you think!!!! That is unbelievably important. It determines your faith in God and the spirit.

And as spirits we will all get judged by the doing's of our free will(spirit). The Sin introduced by Lucifer.

To get it all you have to know who God is.

God is= Thee Holy spirit. Not a being. Not in flesh. We cant see God.

Angels are= spirits. Not in flesh. We cant see angels.

Humans are = Spirits in flesh. And we can see other humans.

Then how do we communicate?

Through our spirit. Our thoughts,actions and free will.

In the end God is going to judge us, And the Angels(Lucifer and his fellow companions) by the actions we have done in spirit and in flesh.

Your spirit is given to you by God. That is the life which God blew into the clay to give you life. A life in flesh. When you die the spirits leaves the flesh. And then you stand before God.

Something the spirit while in flesh have a hard time of grasping. Because we cant see other spirits. We only have thoughts and imagination. We only believe that our thoughts are our own. So other spirits become fiction or a imagination. God becomes fiction and hard to believe in.

Doesn't this sound more true then fiction. If you think about reality.

We have to know who we are. To be saved.

We have to have faith in our spirit,God and Jesus Christ to have a chance after death.
You only have your time in flesh to get your story straight. After that you stand before God with what you got.

Because you will die. And that you know is true. It is just a mater of time. If you dont belive that your a spirit in flesh. No one can help you.






[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

all you people who wonder what the bible means when you don't believe a word of it might as well not even read it, its for those who love God and therefore would like to be worthy of him by following whatever instruction that he has for them. The devil means "the rebellion" the devil whome beguiled Eve in the garden was a man, "heathens were studying the earth before my people existed" i quote from the bible, people were and are today "the devil himself" as i have and i do quote people as saying thousands of times "don't you know kid, we men are the devil, you see we live and then we die, so we have to get as much pussy as we can before we do, because we're doomed, we're the devil!" Men who were alive and well at the time adam and eve thought this barbaric way at that time as they do now, the bible says adam was the first man, but it doesnt say the devil is not in the form of a man himself! so read your bibles when you feel that it is for the love you have for the father in heaven and then you will understand only all that you read in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, if he didn't love you he wouldn't have given his only begotten son so that you could forgiven your sins and get the good works done for his son, our savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who's word is the living word, the holy bible, which lives past the end of this world, get this good nutrients and you will need nothing else!

Argh! Where on Earth do you have all this info and characteristics and whereabouts of a god who was invented by the Romans to replace the Greek deity and astronomical phenomena Phosphoros, the Morning Star. FYI Jesus calls himself phosphoros, which is btw translated into lucifer in the Lat. Vulgate, or "vera lucifer" the clear morningstar. When did somehow this word become a name of Satan? Well, I'll tell you. From modern new age lore and fiction books like Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Divine Comedy. Lucifer as a god is not mentioned in the bible, however, some rather poor translations interpret the Heb. word heylel into the name Lucifer, talking about false miracles. Shame on you for giving a planet the blame for ehat a woman and a man did six thousand years ago.

As for the original Satan:
Have you even read the bible, studied maps and names, looked into the Word -- Language and figured out why the first letter of nearly all Indo-European alfabets start with the letter A. A is a bull, but in this case, turned upside down, and nearly all common alfabets from Europe, ME and near-Asia has this configuration. The word "bull" comes from Ba'al and probably an ancient word with the same meaning, and he was the Bull of Heaven, the Golden Calf, Lord of Rising, Beelzebub, the Main Satan of the Hebrews. Lucifer on the other hand, is the god of the morningstar Venus as he is personified in Roman myth dating no longer back than than a couple of centuries B.C. So because of vanity you allow yourself to "forget" that the serpent in Eden lived about 3500 years before this Lucifer of your's showed up in the Greco-Roman pantheon.