How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

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posted on Dec, 7 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by miriam0566
 


Just because you dislike the lilith story and it doesn't agree with your view of God doesn't render this fact obsolete;

The Lilith story came first, in the Hebrew Texts, which were imparted to the Hebrews by God.

And you saying "We don't know if it's inspired" is a lie. What you mean to say is "I don't like it, I like my god better and this contradicts my view."

It came first. You're claiming god is wrong and that the Jews were not the Chosen people that he imparted his will and the story of creation unto.


If something isn't in harmony with the rest of the Bible then, most logically people would see it as not being inspired. Its not about a contradiction of views but of the rest of the Bible.

The only person that comes close to the truth about the Bible on these forums is miriam.




posted on Dec, 7 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


And how, per se, does the Lilith story conflict with the hebrew texts? Have you spoken with any Rabbi's? Talked to someone who studies Jewish Literature for a living?

As for the person who claims that out of ALL of ATS that somehow Miriam has the most truthful and accurate understanding of the bible, I call BS. Such a statement is a grave insult to people on ATS who spend their lives researching religion, and may even be paid to do so.



posted on Dec, 7 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by miriam0566
 


And how, per se, does the Lilith story conflict with the hebrew texts? Have you spoken with any Rabbi's? Talked to someone who studies Jewish Literature for a living?

As for the person who claims that out of ALL of ATS that somehow Miriam has the most truthful and accurate understanding of the bible, I call BS. Such a statement is a grave insult to people on ATS who spend their lives researching religion, and may even be paid to do so.




I did not say of all religions, I said the Bible. How is that an insult ot people of other faiths?

I am not even sure if she has all of the truth, but is is the closest I have seen here.

People who get paid don't always teach the right thing. I met a pastor and explained to him why christmas is not a christan holiday. He said he already knew that. I asked if he taught and celebrated it, he said he would be out of a job if he didn't.

[edit on 7-12-2008 by lucidclouds]

[edit on 7-12-2008 by lucidclouds]



posted on Dec, 7 2008 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
And how, per se, does the Lilith story conflict with the hebrew texts? Have you spoken with any Rabbi's? Talked to someone who studies Jewish Literature for a living?


why would i need to talk to a rabbi about something i can clearly see with my own 2 eyes?

excerpt from the story of lilith

After God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone' (Gen. 2:18). He then created a woman for Adam, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith began to fight.


so god immediately creates 2 people to be married who are incompatible?! it implies god makes mistakes doesnt it?

you said it yourself, no matter how god makes a woman, she would be disobedient. sounds like you are suggesting that god cannot design something that perfectly fits his purpose.

but its much different in genesis. adam and eve had freewill but were created perfect. god looked at his creation and saw that it was good. the fault lied with adam and eve, not some mistake of design on god´s part.

so which is inspired?



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Yes. Eve was created perfect.

Which is why she disobeyed God and convinced Adam to do so as well.

Eve was created perfect, apparently, so her actions were perfect to her nature as God created her.

You refuse to conduct actual research on the topic and talk with the culture that wrote the book because you do not feel that you need to.

So, we are essentially not having a conversation as much as you are telling everyone what is what.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 04:11 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by miriam0566
 


Yes. Eve was created perfect.

Which is why she disobeyed God and convinced Adam to do so as well.

Eve was created perfect, apparently, so her actions were perfect to her nature as God created her.

You refuse to conduct actual research on the topic and talk with the culture that wrote the book because you do not feel that you need to.

So, we are essentially not having a conversation as much as you are telling everyone what is what.


Its not that she was imperfect, but she chose to sin. See, the difference between her and us is that she had to go out of her way to sin. For us we need to go out of our way to do what is right.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Yes. Eve was created perfect.

Which is why she disobeyed God and convinced Adam to do so as well.

Eve was created perfect, apparently, so her actions were perfect to her nature as God created her.


so what your saying is that eve sinned because thats what god wanted her to do? so god held her accountable and punished her for something she was designed to do?

so before you were saying that that god makes mistakes, now god is unrighteous.


You refuse to conduct actual research on the topic and talk with the culture that wrote the book because you do not feel that you need to.

So, we are essentially not having a conversation as much as you are telling everyone what is what.


the thing is, you have no idea what research i have or havent done on the subject. i dont understand why you must persist and rely on personal attacks to degrade and discredit me



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 06:12 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


don't worry miriam. anyone with an opened mind that is reading through this will see who is using the bible to back up their arguments and who is using their opinion.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Because you claim some sort of authority with knowing what is "INSPIRED", because you claim that everyone should realize it is self obvious what is and is not inspired, because you have not supported your claims whereas it relates to Lilith's story, you just keep repeating yourself that it is uninspired and that the rest of Genesis is inspired.

Because you continuously claim that you don't need to refer to anyone who has spent their life researching Jewish texts to gain a better understanding of the literature before you shoot your mouth off like some authority on the bible.

Because you THINK you're an authority, and self-righteousness tends to chaffe not only myself but others.

and if you DON'T think that, it may be a wise move to STOP ACTING LIKE IT and try and have an actual conversation about the topic.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Because you claim some sort of authority with knowing what is "INSPIRED",


never claimed any authority


because you claim that everyone should realize it is self obvious what is and is not inspired,


that is my belief. the bible didnt survive to today by accident. it survived scribes with agendas, campaigns to destroy it, and now is continually the best seller every year not counting bibles just given away. no other book even comes close.

just because you dont see something or choose not to see something doesnt mean it isnt there.


because you have not supported your claims whereas it relates to Lilith's story, you just keep repeating yourself that it is uninspired and that the rest of Genesis is inspired.


no instead you just continually ignore it.

just answer the question, does god make mistakes?


Because you continuously claim that you don't need to refer to anyone who has spent their life researching Jewish texts to gain a better understanding of the literature before you shoot your mouth off like some authority on the bible.


look up any subject on the bible that has quotes from scholars and theologians. you´ll find quotes on both sides of the argument. they cant even agree, and they are ¨experts¨.

your so quick to put your faith in nobles without actually reasoning it for yourself. what scares me is thinking about how you would react if i had degrees and doctorates on this subject and yet had the same opinion on the subject. would my opinion then warrant some more respect because i have a piece of paper that says i took classes? or would you still spit at me?


Because you THINK you're an authority, and self-righteousness tends to chaffe not only myself but others.


i use this sight as an outlet for years of research i have done. it doesnt make me an authority. alot of people on this site ignore me even.


and if you DON'T think that, it may be a wise move to STOP ACTING LIKE IT and try and have an actual conversation about the topic.


i have tried, but it hard when someone is spitting venom from across the table



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Since you seem incapable of grasping that you aren't putting forward an argument so much as an absolutist assessment about something being official, I will instead ask you upon a related topic.

How much do you know about the Ten Aspects of God, the Paths of Sephiroh and Lilith's relationship to Samael and Adam?



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by TheColdDragon
 


The idea of her being an antediluvian woman, married to angel, is just a theory. I am convinced that there is some truth to Enoch 1. The writer of Enoch 1 believed that 200 angels descended onto mount Hermon and took human females as wives.

The part about her husband's name being Obon came from a novel called "Atla", published in 1886. I tried to find where the author came up with that name, but came up empty handed. It may have been a theory of hers. I belive she combined Ob (Serpent god) and On (Sun god) to make the name. The serpent/sun god are a common theme with most ancient civilizations. The Greek myth of Ophion is saying he was the first of the elder gods before his fall and replacement by another god, such as Cronus. Lucifer and Ophion could be related beings.

I noticed you started a thread on Phaeton back in November, with the title The Secret Origins of Lucifer. I have a theory to add that intertwines with the physical realm with his fall. I'll reply to your thread when I get the chance.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 10:14 PM
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Because Satan was part of the Game. He was only doing what had been planned by The Gods and carrying out his duty.

Being cast out of heaven was also part of the Game. He is mankind's adversary and not God's.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by prevenge

Originally posted by Haiku
[edit on 9-11-2008 by Haiku]



get your facts straight

then we can talk.


Facts!? Bible?!
Apples?! Oranges?!



posted on Dec, 12 2008 @ 05:02 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Since you seem incapable of grasping that you aren't putting forward an argument so much as an absolutist assessment about something being official, I will instead ask you upon a related topic.

How much do you know about the Ten Aspects of God, the Paths of Sephiroh and Lilith's relationship to Samael and Adam?


you seem in incapable of answering a simple question, does god make mistakes?



posted on Dec, 13 2008 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Does God Make mistakes? It would entirely depend on what version of God we're discussing.

If you're referring to the Gnostic viewpoint of the Old Testament God, then yes... the Demi-Urge was designed imperfectly and all of his creations are imperfect, thusly trapped in the material realms.

If you're referring to the God you believe in, I am going to wager you believe god is Infallible and thusly this is the cornerstone of your argument. However, since we're not discussing what we BELIEVE but rather an actual topic and the evidence for/against and concerning the serpent in the garden, What you believe or I believe doesn't matter.

As such, your question is a non-question whereas the topic is concerned.



posted on Dec, 14 2008 @ 04:44 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by miriam0566
 


Does God Make mistakes? It would entirely depend on what version of God we're discussing.

If you're referring to the Gnostic viewpoint of the Old Testament God, then yes... the Demi-Urge was designed imperfectly and all of his creations are imperfect, thusly trapped in the material realms.

If you're referring to the God you believe in, I am going to wager you believe god is Infallible and thusly this is the cornerstone of your argument. However, since we're not discussing what we BELIEVE but rather an actual topic and the evidence for/against and concerning the serpent in the garden, What you believe or I believe doesn't matter.

As such, your question is a non-question whereas the topic is concerned.


its very relevant to the topic concerned. the bible shows god to be infallible. is the bible inspired?

if the answer is yes, then logically any text that shows god making a mistake would conflict with the bible. is it logical to say that 2 conflicting texts could both be inspired?

you bring up mystic texts with this assumption that they are inspired by god. if your gnostic, then i can see how these texts would appeal to you. but that doesnt change the need to verify ´who´ inspired these things

what you have been teaching in this thread conflicts with the bible in several areas, even jesus and john´s own words suggest that satan was the original serpent.

bringing up kabbalian teachings (which it has been suggested may have been started in assyria) puts you in direct conflict with what the son of god said himself.

you call me arrogant for connecting the dots. in fact most of our discussion has been personal attacks mixed with diversionary tactics. but you refuse to see reason on any of it, you just bury it with more and more supposition.

you seem more interested in ¨mystery¨ than simple truth



posted on Dec, 14 2008 @ 05:57 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Since you do not see fit to answer the questions I asked, when I obligingly answered yours, I'm going to call the conversation between you and I over until you grow up and can take part in a mature conversation.

---------

As for the topic, it has been brought up throughout the discussion that the Serpent in the garden may have a variety of different identities as proposed by biblical scholars... In particular, I find the Lilith angle to be fascinating, mostly because there seem to be about six different stories whereas it relates to Lilith and her relationship with Adam in the Garden, and after.

It's also been brought up along the way that the Gnostics propose that the Serpent may have been an agent of Sophia (or Sophia herself) coming down into the creation to offer Mankind the possibility of reunion with the Divine. I find myself wondering if, perhaps, the gnostic viewpoint on the subject is the origin of the human soul(?).

It has also been brought up that, linguistically speaking, Lucifer was not an entity when the original texts were being written, and the very origins of the name (Lux phor) tend to lean towards the idea that Lucifer as an entity was created by the church, so it is not even necessary to state that Lucifer tempted Eve in the garden.



posted on Dec, 18 2008 @ 12:45 PM
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Ningishzida, a Sumerian god, is the serpent in Genesis (remember, Satan is NOT mentioned at all in the Book of Genesis)



Nin-gish-zida, the Sumerian Serpent-Dragon of Heaven, who offered man (Adapa, priest of Enki [the God of Wisdom and Knowledge]) the food and drink that would have bestowed immortality on him and consequently mankind.


The Sumerian Deity Ningishzida recast as a "legless" Serpent by the Hebrews)

Ningishzida offered man food and drink, which could allocate the resources to become god like? Hmm, sounds familiar.



Now the Serpent. Genesis portrays the serpent as possessing two rather
amazing characteristics, it has the ability to walk on legs, and it can
carry on a conversation with humans. This serpent is also portrayed as
dwelling in an earthly paradise with God, Adam and Eve. My research has
concluded that the Sumerian Dragon-Serpent called "Nin-Gish-Zida" is what
lies behind the Genesis Myth.


The Garden of Eden Myth (Serpent, Adam & God)

What else is interesting about the ancient Mesopotamian myths is another deity - Tammuz (who was the Sumerian god of food and vegetation.)

The reason I mention both Tammuz and Ningishzida is because of the reference to the two tree's located in the Garden of Eden. Mesopotamian myths describe Tammuz and Ningishzida as the doorkeepers to Anu's celestial palace. In order for man to gain audience with Anu, Tammuz and Ningishzida were the solution. Similar to the relationship Christians have with Christ.

By eating from both the Tree of Life (Tammuz) and the Tree of Knowledge (Ningishzida) Adam and Eve would had gained potential access to God (Anu's palace.) This would explain their expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

Google search "Ningishzida+Tammuz"



posted on Dec, 18 2008 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by infinite
 


Very interesting! Another topic of research I will have to look into. Is Ningishzida punished for giving the fruits of wisdom and knowledge to mortal man?

It is important to note that Ningishzida is, according to your information, an entity representative of Wisdom and Knowledge, which streamline also into the theory of Sophia being the serpent and imparting this quality onto mankind in order to nurture the divine spark in mankind so that they may rejoin the Divine Entity.

I'll be reading about the Serpent god, thanks for the contribution.


Also, is it not important to note that Serpents in the South American religions were ALSO spiritual beings of knowledge and wisdom?





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