How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

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posted on Dec, 18 2008 @ 10:21 PM
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Can no one see the problem here??

Sorry to burst your collective bubbles, but I think the OP has a point --

What I have seen happen, in the last several pages, is a bunch of biblical arguments, about the various interpretations OF the bible, based on whatever you've been taught to INTERPRET from the bible.

What I see here (please, no flaming) is --- a small segment of our society who have seemingly different views, even though they revolve around a common theme, at the core.....which is, I assume, a belief in Jesus Christ...but seem to differ on the particulars.

AND, thus!!! War breaks out!!!!!!!

Going deeper into the divide....the OP is referring to the OT....yet people still come in with NT opinions!!! STEP ONE of the 'divide'.....

STEP TWO of the 'divide' is the inability of the 'NT' people to realize that the 'OT' came first....

STEP THREE of the 'divide' is to appeal to the basic rationality of your (if you wish...) 'god-given' intelligence to see a myth, a 'parable', a 'story' whatever moniker you wish to apply, to what constitutes the 'bible'.

STEP FOUR is the realization that 'christianity' is NOT THE ONLY religion on this planet!!!! Let me repeat....'christianity' is NOT THE ONLY religion on this planet!!!!

STEP FIVE is to accept the fact that there are other disciplines, each equally sound within their own paragigm, but each (mostly) mutually exclusive---and therefore, mostly wrong.




posted on Dec, 19 2008 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Very interesting! Another topic of research I will have to look into. Is Ningishzida punished for giving the fruits of wisdom and knowledge to mortal man?


I believe he was not. But I'm not sure. Enki's pleasure garden on the outskirts of Eridu and originally a Sumerian myth became known as the Garden of Eden.

The story of Adam is based on Sumerian myth Adapa.



Adapa or Adamu son of Ea (according to Sayce) was a Sumerian and Babylonian mythical figure who accidentally rejected the gift of immortality. The story is first attested in the Kassite period (14th century BC).


wiki - Adapa

"To accept that Enki would not only trick Adapa, but lie to him by claiming he would be offered the bread and water of death, when he was to be offered the bread and water of Life seems implausible. We must therefor take Enki at his word, and assume that to eat the bread of immortal life is to eat the bread of death; to drink the water of eternal life is to drink the water of death. Indeed, Anu offers the bread and water of life to Adapa only after he discovers the wisdom granted him (and thus, to mankind) by Enki,"

Gateways To Babylon

In the Sumerian myth, Adapa trusted Enki (the god he served on Earth) and believed he would surely die if he accepted the gods food. In the Bible story, Adam and Eve did not trust the word of God and consumed the food from the serpent.

Sumerian Adapa = Trust.
Bible Adam = Deceit.

In essence, both narratives are based on the same protagonist but different outcomes. Original Sin in the Garden Eden goes back to one fundamental difference: Adam and Eve did not trust the word of God whereas Adapa truly believed he would die. Adapa refused to betray Enki even though mankind would be allocated to immortality.

According to the Bible, man already was guaranteed immortality and was stripped of that right for punishment. Adapa was a mortal.


[edit on 19-12-2008 by infinite]



posted on Dec, 19 2008 @ 08:03 PM
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reply to post by infinite
 


Fascinating interpretation, 'infinite'...I enjoy your references to the Sumerians, and how some of those 'lore' stories (since, of course, there was no way to write them down, at the time) 'evolved' into the 'books' of the 'bible'....which, of course, has been re-translated and re-translated ever since, up to today......



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 08:45 AM
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During the inquisission in the Dark Ages, especially in France, members of the Knights Templars were captured, and interrigated by the Catholic Church's men. They were accused of herecy and especially for spitting at the cross and for worshipping a certain Baphomet with the body of a naked, young female and the head of an old horned goat making the shape of a downwards-pointing pentagram.

Dr. Hugh Schonfield, a Dead Sea Scrolls expert used the classic Hebrew cipher method called Atbash and turned the name Baphomet into Sophia, the goddess of wisdom in ancient Greece. What Atbash does is to substitute the first letter of the alphabet for the last, then the next and so on. And when applied to Baphomet, the Greek word Sophia comes up.

Since ancient times wisdom has always been connected with evil and fear for some reason. Serpents and dragons, goats and well, women. To point out one certain origin for this aspect I believe is more or less impossible.



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
Going deeper into the divide....the OP is referring to the OT....yet people still come in with NT opinions!!! STEP ONE of the 'divide'..


This is a fantastic statement. Why? I'll shall explain..

The Old Testament does not declare Satan as the diabolical, evil manipulator of man. If you study the Old Testament, you'll clearly read how Satan is "The Accuser" and operates a role involving him pointing out sin's committed by man to God. Satan acts only under permission. Plus, he is only mentioned a few times (think it is two).

Now, for the New Testament. He is mentioned over 30 times, including under different aliases. Only Christianity dictates Satan as the serpent, Islam paints a whole different picture - the Angel who refused to prostrate before Adam at the time of the latter's creation.

[edit on 21-12-2008 by infinite]



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 01:11 PM
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"Iblis" is probably the angel you refer to, connected both to "Ba'al" and "diablos" etymologically. But talking about "Satan", the word is Hebrew and mean opponent and/or accuser. It's a title more than a name. Ha-Shatan would be a truer spelling of it as a name I suppose. His constellation in heaven is the Dragon, whom you can see sharing his head, shoulders and right arm with the Father, showing his power as "God's right hand man" from around the celestial north pole and throughout this part of the universe.

Like I have said before, the idea that this character is synonymous with the serpent in Eden, is modern, and molded from fiction writers like Milton and Dante. It has nothing to do with reality. The serpent in the Hebrew Eden myth was Lilith the first spouse of Adam whom he left for being too indipendent and being the cleverest arch in Eden, Adam felt he was left in her shadow, she was not his like, and thereby Adam complains to God who puts him in a narcosis and removes a "tsela" a cell or a rib, from Adam and close "the shameful wound down there". From the "tsela" or "cell" God fancies a woman Adam calls Shevah which means Life. God calls her Woman for she has been taken out of the Man. Lilith in revenge towards Adam for leaving her for an other, tricks Shevah or Eve into breaking the only law they had to obey. Remember that if the whole Tora was to be written down there wouldn't be enough paper in the world. What is contained in the bible, is but a small part of it. Every story is commented by oral traditions and teachings of rabbis and prophets. And especially Genesis is the base of a whole rainbow of traditions like the writings of patriarchs and prophets like Enoch.



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 02:40 PM
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It cannot be Lilith because the King James version of the Bible translates the true content of the serpent actions against Eve. The word "seduced", in a sexual manner, is used not "tempted" (as in modern Bible's).

Even the Bible gives evidence for it, Adam and Eve had sexual intercourse once and produced two children: Cain and Abel - who are not described as twins. In Jewish traditions, Cain* is the son of the serpent (Christian's believe he is the son of Satan.)

Lilith would not "lay beneath" Adam and spoke the true name of God, descended into heaven and God sent Gabriel to locate her whereabouts. God sent Lilith a warning that he would kill her offspring and make child birth painful as punishment for her countermanding man. Jewish mystic texts tale of a fable after Cain was banished. He was said to have wandered until he found Lilith by the Red Sea. She took him in and showed him the power of blood.

*Cain was the first born

[edit on 21-12-2008 by infinite]



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by infinite
It cannot be Lilith because the King James version of the Bible translates the true content of the serpent actions against Eve. The word "seduced", in a sexual manner, is used not "tempted" (as in modern Bible's).


Think out of the box, KJV is one of the worst translations around. "Nasha" doesn't mean seduced, nor tempted and is translated "beguiled" in KJV. "Nasha" means to be deceived or (magically) charmed, and has nothing to do with anything sexual. "Nasha" is a wordplay over "Nachash" -- "serpent". I mean what has sex to do with knowledge of good and evil anyway? It's not like it takes a rocket scientist or a supreme court judge to figure out how to have sexual intercourse. I mean, they lived in a big garden with all sorts of animals and humans around, they couldn't have avoided seeing how they do it on Discovery channel.... The serpent was Lilith, period.



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
The serpent was Lilith, period.


Kabbalah made the depiction, but there is no evidence to suggest the serpent was Lilith. A Sumerian serpent god (which I discussed) is considered a possible candidate - but neither of them can be definitely associated to the serpent in the garden of eden.

However, it is likely Neo Christian Mystic and I presented the most likely identifications of the serpent. I'll do some more research tomorrow, but I believe a gnostic text presents a third candidate - another god. I believe it's the Gospel of Judas, which claims Jesus told the disciples he was sent by another god (this feeds into the theory, which makes critical comparisons between God in the Old Testament to that in the New).



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by infinite
 


Sorry, "infinite".....

I have seen this so often, here on ATS, it is becoming redundant...

Anyone who bothers to READ this reply, and cares to notice WHY I replied will likely see my point.

This 'reply' is ONLY to respond to the notion that another ATS 'member', "infinite", chose to quote a portion of an earlier post by me, out of context. (This is a common practice my some, not I, of course, but still....it is disengenuous and self-serving).

Now, lest I be accused of "baiting"....I will say, I didn't expect this, when I typed that post, and hit "ENTER"....I am simply rspopnding to what I perceive as an obvious attack scheme, something I see all too often, here on ATS.

The STAFF cannot monitor 24/7, obviously....AND this is so not worthy of reporting as a 'violation' of the rules, I won't bother.

HOWEVER....I hope all that come along and read these exchanges will understand the points.....



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 12:34 AM
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In the beginning a human was just as intelligent as a new born baby. Have could he be bound by a law. When he didn't know of any.
The law is a creation made by man that go's and changes parallel with a man through time.

When did God tell a human about The garden of Eden the fist time. When was it written.We dident bring that knowledge with us from the time of Adam. We had to be reminded of the time later. Why!!

Have honest is a Man..... any man. Or the works of a Man and past him.

Would you bet your Eternity on the honesty of a Mans work.... any Man.
Dose a Man's work make you so sure that you can argue a truth over another about what "God" really did in the Garden of Eden.

If so....That tells me that you believe more in the words made by a man then God. That tells me you know your religion but not God.

Religion butchered Jesus. What dose that tell you about our understanding of the true words written by A Man. And we didn't learn much from that.
And because Adam and Eve didn't listen to God we were cast out from The garden per-say. And we didn't learn much from that.

So what are we still doing wrong. I think we should pay more attention to God then any word made by man. Maybe then we would understand the true religion.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 01:38 AM
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reply to post by spy66
 


Excuse me, spy66....

Let's think this through, with some logic...

No flaming, of course....just intelligent discussion.

I HAVE read Genesis, and I have found it lacking in LOGIC, even if it may have value in its fables and parables, concerning the Human Condition and Human Emotions.

Let's apply some LOGIC, firstly....assuming an 'all powerful' god, who is the ALMIGHTY, 'creates' two imperfect beings, from the outset???

ALL of the other 'creations' seem to be OK....except the Human???

Now, to go into the realm of reality.....the Earth is NOT 6000 years old, it is, instead, about 4.5 BILLION years old.

Given that basis, one must conclude that the 'book' of genesis was in fact written down, at some point in the last few thousand years, and was simply a compilation of various 'lore', orally repeated for generations....with 'embelishments' along the way, as oral histories tend to procede....as in, for instance....Santa Clause.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 01:44 AM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Adam and Eve WERE perfect, but they had free-will.
They weren't 'programed' to only do what they were told or avoid independent thought processes!
Adam was told what would happen.

If they had wanted the good tree, The Tree of Life, they would have lived FOREVER without sin being brought to humans!



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 01:56 AM
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reply to post by Clearskies
 


Clear....whilst I try to appreciate your belief in the supernatural....isn't THAT something that many Preachers...errrr...'preach' against???

Let's try a different 'logical' approach on you....let's say that Adam and Eve could have lived 'forever'....just exactly how long is "FOREVER"????

Damn, without TV and Video Games, I would have been bored to tears after, oh....say, 2 years????

OK, I was being funny....but really, WHAT would have stimulated 'Adam and Eve' if they lived forever??? Sex??? I think that would get tiresume after thefirst few hundred years....then what??

I'd like some model trains, then maybe a real airlplane to fly....OH!!! And a Fast Mercedes Benz, and an AutoBahn, with just me on the road!!! YEAH!!!!!

OK, back to logic....two individuals froim 6,000 years ago could NOT populate the planet in the numbers we see today!!! BUZZZZ!!!! Try again!!!!



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
Even the Bible gives evidence for it, Adam and Eve had sexual intercourse once and produced two children: Cain and Abel - who are not described as twins. In Jewish traditions, Cain* is the son of the serpent (Christian's believe he is the son of Satan.)
[edit on 21-12-2008 by infinite]


genesis 4:1,2:

"1 Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.” 2 Later she again gave birth, to his brother Abel."



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


I think you've taken my remarks completely out of context and I wasn't being "disengenuous and self-serving". If you believe I did, I withdraw the comments.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 05:11 AM
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reply to post by lucidclouds
 


What does that prove? One act of sex than two children (who are not twins). Still, the Bible does not conclusively answer the question. But of course, Cain and Abel - just like the Garden of Eden - are based upon another Mesopotamian myth. Lilitu demon was a minor Sumerian wind demoness too.

To answer this question: How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

Easy, the whole story was based on Mesopotamian myths and reconstructed to suit the new religious order. Parts of the Bible, which missed the censors, point to the myths and mystical elements that were excluded from the universal teachings of the Bible.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by infinite]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:00 AM
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Gen 3:1-"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast in the field which the Lord had made.

What I get from this is the "Serpent" was not Lucifer but a type of intelligent animal that was capable of communication.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by Tricky63]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:09 AM
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that is my belief. the bible didnt survive to today by accident. it survived scribes with agendas, campaigns to destroy it, and now is continually the best seller every year not counting bibles just given away. no other book even comes close.


I just checked the last few years top selling books, and the bible wasn't mentioned once.
I wasn't sure if I was supposed to look in fiction or non-fiction, though



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by cruzion
I just checked the last few years top selling books, and the bible wasn't mentioned once.
I wasn't sure if I was supposed to look in fiction or non-fiction, though


archives.chicagotribune.com...

[edit on 22-12-2008 by miriam0566]





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