How could Lucifer have tempted Eve in the garden when he had not been cast from heaven yet?

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posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 12:34 AM
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This may belong in a different forum, please move if so...


I think alot of people believers and nonbelievers, have read the bible. Can anyone tell me, how Satan (Lucifer) tempted Eve in the garden of Eden when Lucifer had not yet been cast from Heaven? If Lucifer was not the tempting serpant... who was?

Is this proof of the questionable validity of if not the bible itself, but maybe the multiple translations of it? Or proof that it was a tactic of a new regime to gain control of a multitude?



[edit on 9-11-2008 by Haiku]



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posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 12:36 AM
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If you try to apply logic to the Bible you will be very confused...



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 12:40 AM
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Good point,
who is to say who is evil?
If God was with holding info, wouldn't that make him bad?

also , where did this Garden ever Go if it was on earth .??



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by Haiku
This may belong in a different forum, please move if so...


I think alot of people believers and nonbelievers, have read the bible. Can anyone tell me, how Satan (Lucifer) tempted Eve in the garden of Eden when Lucifer had not yet been cast from Heaven? If Lucifer was not the tempting serpant... who was?

Is this proof of the questionable validity of if not the bible itself, but maybe the multiple translations of it? Or proof that it was a tactic of a new regime to gain control of a multitude?



[edit on 9-11-2008 by Haiku]



first.. what you need to do.. is go and find out where you "learned" the untruth that Satan and Lucifer were somehow the same thing.

then go back and re-read the bible and try to apply "jehova" and "satan" as the same entity.


the title of "Lucifer" latin - "light bearer" or "light bringer" had been around before much of the christian mythology was written.

I don't see anything about "Lucifer" tempting Adam or Eve.


get your facts straight

then we can talk.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 12:48 AM
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Originally posted by Haiku
This may belong in a different forum, please move if so...


I think alot of people believers and nonbelievers, have read the bible. Can anyone tell me, how Satan (Lucifer) tempted Eve in the garden of Eden when Lucifer had not yet been cast from Heaven? If Lucifer was not the tempting serpant... who was?

Is this proof of the questionable validity of if not the bible itself, but maybe the multiple translations of it? Or proof that it was a tactic of a new regime to gain control of a multitude?



[edit on 9-11-2008 by Haiku]

Ok its like this.
God created Adam and Eve, they sinned had Cain Abel and the incest sisters etc.
Man didn't have a soul then?
Apparently.
Then Jesus came, and died for our sins.
Then god gave man a soul?

And then Lucifer an angel, was jealous God gave man a soul, and went against Gods word.
And then God cast him into the fires of hell.
So in reality, in the garden of Eden, there was no Lucifer.
Basically all this is a fairytale of riddles.
Lucifer was a planet even before the Jews in the pagan times.
And in the Jews time he was a king who persecuted the Jews.
And in the Christian times he was a fallen angel.
In 5000 years from now, he will be something else.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 12:50 AM
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A long time ago people took dreams and visions very seriously. Their intuition was at a much higher state just because of all the unknowns that surrounded them and the need for survival. I believe back then humans were much more spiritual. Humans today still have that capacity.

I personally believe humans have periods of time in which their consciousness evolves. These periods of time open up the mind so to speak. Deeper understand and thought starts to develop.

Maybe our consciousness was awakened in this period going from more spiritual guidance to intellectual guidance(ego). When reading the Bible one should use the imagination and think on many levels.

A prophet a long time ago would have seen the future and found certain things hard to describe such as an Apache helicopter. He may use locust to describe it. A modern paved road may look to him to be a river.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 12:57 AM
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Oh dear...

Fact 'straightening'

Well... in many churches, they teach you that when Lucifer fell from heaven, he was cast to hell... he is from this point on, referred to as satan...




Lucifer is a name frequently given to Satan in Christian belief. This usage stems from a particular interpretation, as a reference to a fallen angel, of a passage in the Bible (Isaiah 14:3-20) that speaks of someone who is given the name of "Day Star" or "Morning Star" (in Latin, Lucifer) as fallen from heaven. The same Latin word is used of the morning star in 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere with no relation to Satan. But Satan is called Lucifer in many writings later than the Bible, notably in Milton's Paradise Lost.
wikipedia source



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 01:08 AM
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angles were always meddling in the ways of man. why couldn't lucifer? he taught the pleasure of casual sex. more power to him.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 01:44 AM
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reply to post by Haiku
 


Yea notice they dont mention/clarify the fact that in the 2 Peter verse they speak of, the Day star or Morning star is referring to Jesus


Oops slight problem there!


yeah, people have misconstrued the whole Lucifer is satan thing for ages now. the "name" Lucifer is in ONE verse of ONE english translation, out of all the english translations we have. It is also in only ONE Latin translation, which the english one ended up including in.

And yet we have this whole mythos of lucifer is a demon and yadda yadda.


It's funny, if you examine this one issue closely, you can see that the person who wrote the epistles of Paul based his "notes" on that single latin mistranslation.

Why? Because in one of the epistles it talks about how we should not be fooled, for even satan can appear as an "angel of light".

Wonder where that idea came from? Specially since, textually, there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that any of the hebrews had an inkling about some demon named "lucifer". They knew Satan, but no concept of "lucifer"... even though that name is supposedly derived directly from one of their oldest and most revered prophets.


Gotta think logically folks



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by Haiku
I think alot of people believers and nonbelievers, have read the bible. Can anyone tell me, how Satan (Lucifer) tempted Eve in the garden of Eden when Lucifer had not yet been cast from Heaven? If Lucifer was not the tempting serpant... who was?


ok, first, lucifer is not satan. it is the king of babylon. the entire chapter was talking about the king and the context shows that even when lucifer is mentioned, it is still refering to the king. i could get into the original arabic, but ill try to stay on topic.

satan was cast down. the reference is found in revelation (hence why people think isaiah is referring to satan)

rev 12
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

if you look at verse 10, we see praise being given to "the kingdom of our god."

daniel references a kingdom of god that will be set up. this is a discussion onto itself as to exactly when this kingdom is made, but for the sake of this discussion, all you have to know is that it is after christ died.

so then, what was satan permitted to do before being cast down? to answer that, we need to look at job.

job 1
[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

so there is a meeting in heaven, apparently, even though he is sinned, he is still permitted access to heaven.

[7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

when asked where he was satan replied that he was wandering on the earth.

from these scriptures, we can deduce that angels, while having a primary home in heaven, are permitted to go to earth (in the spirit realm of course). the accounts of angels giving messages account for this too. satan, was given this permission too, until it was time to clean the heaven out.

so him being on earth tempting eve is perfectly possible and doesnt conflict with anything



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

job 1
[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

so there is a meeting in heaven, apparently, even though he is sinned, he is still permitted access to heaven.

[7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

when asked where he was satan replied that he was wandering on the earth.



exactly why would Yaweh of the Elohim (christians call him the big G because they're conned by the new translations where the title Elohim is LITERALLY CENSORED OUT and replaced by "God")
say hey Satan, son of mine... where ya been?
if he had banished him to earth.. then he sure as hell would have known that's where he was.

also..
sounds like satan answers as saying "i've been walking up and down inside the earth" meaning he's in underground caverns.
just .. that's what it reads to me.. beeeecause that's what it frikin' says.

overall.. satan seems to have a pretty good repoir with the big guy.
they don't eyeball each other all shady etc...
it's all pretty much business... satan.. is pretty much the adversary the accusor the one that tempts.. to TEST man and challenge him in order for him to grow.

doesn't mean he has to be the "bad guy".

i mean YOU'RE the one doing what he supposedly "tempts" you into right?
not HIM. he's not doing the act.
you are.

so HAIKU...
good thing you found the source of your learned "untruth".
the source was:
many "writings" later than the Bible
If I write a story about characters in the bible can I completely augment Christian Belief also? pleeez?

oh yeah.. and another thing.
read Genesis
Says something to the tune of.. and Yaweh Elohim ("god") said "let us make man in OUR image."

SHAAA-ZAYUM!

-


[edit on 9-11-2008 by prevenge]



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 03:04 AM
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Originally posted by prevenge
exactly why would Yaweh of the Elohim (christians call him the big G because they're conned by the new translations where the title Elohim is LITERALLY CENSORED OUT and replaced by "God")


yeah, nevermind that Elohim is hebrew for god in the superlative form



also..
sounds like satan answers as saying "i've been walking up and down inside the earth" meaning he's in underground caverns.
just .. that's what it reads to me.. beeeecause that's what it frikin' says.


job1
8] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

so god notices that satan has been watching job. im guessing that job was in a cave somewhere? because if satan was in the earth then thats the only logical explanation. oh but wait, "in the earth" is an old english form of "on the earth"

gen 1:[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

underground chickens?

gen 6:[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

giants in the earth?

gen 8:[17] Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

so all animals breed in caves.

those are 3 examples out of 72.

the king james version was written when english was much different. in the earth = on the earth


overall.. satan seems to have a pretty good repoir with the big guy.
they don't eyeball each other all shady etc...
it's all pretty much business... satan.. is pretty much the adversary the accusor the one that tempts.. to TEST man and challenge him in order for him to grow.

doesn't mean he has to be the "bad guy".


except that he challenges god. he even questions god's way of treating job.

job 1
[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

its a challenge, a taunt, not business as usual

prov 27:[11] My son, be wise, and make my heart glad, that I may answer him that reproacheth me.

if it was business as usual, then why does satan get kicked out of heaven later? why does he get destroyed later?



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 03:09 AM
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Originally posted by Grumble
If you try to apply logic to the Bible you will be very confused...



This thread should have ended with the first reply.....



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 03:12 AM
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reply to post by prevenge
 





.. satan seems to have a pretty good repoir with the big guy.


Ok, this is another point I question...

The more I read, it seems to me that 'satan' is doing a service to god, as an employee would do for an employer....so, is it too far fetched to think of satan as holding a seat in god's administration'?




"writings" later than the Bible


Also in my OP, I asked if it were possible proof that alot had been lost in translation? OR, is it possible that it was the plot of a new regime attempting to gain control over the followers of an old religion? It seems like the normal tactic for a new religion to make the deity of the old the bad guy... maybe?



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 03:33 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


That's some good work miriam (Mary?)
Enjoyed the reading.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 03:40 AM
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Originally posted by LetsPlayFeedTheGater
Good point,
who is to say who is evil?
If God was with holding info, wouldn't that make him bad?

also , where did this Garden ever Go if it was on earth .??


The garden of Eden is believed to be between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, modern day Iraq. Correct me if im wrong.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 03:50 AM
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Well the wicked one was your not so friendly E.T. that is why the first born of Eve was Cain.

It is written Cain was born of the Wicked One.

His Father was an E.T.

So the crime was with Eve she committed Adultery !!!!

Able being the Second born of Eve was the Son of A'Dam.

It is the Cross breeding that caused death as it corrupted their DNA read later about the ones that came down and took the women of people to be made their wives and because the Genetic cross's were so out of control they gave birth to Giants.

Read you Bible carefully and also read the books of E'Noch as there is a Quote from these books in the Book of "The General Epistle of Jude"

In the books of E'Noch this quote is from E'Noch the 7th from A'Dam gives all the Names of these ones that came to the earth and interbred with the children of Earth befor the so called Flood.

Not my Words but read all about it in your bible and the Books of E'Noch....



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 04:22 AM
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Maybe I read differnt book but wasn't it legion who tempted eve? I kinda remember a part where even god doesn't know who the serpent is and it replies 'we are legion for we are many'???
Curious point that there is another being that isn't one of gods creations...?
I could be 100% wrong but this is how I remember it.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 04:38 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Haiku
I think alot of people believers and nonbelievers, have read the bible. Can anyone tell me, how Satan (Lucifer) tempted Eve in the garden of Eden when Lucifer had not yet been cast from Heaven? If Lucifer was not the tempting serpant... who was?


ok, first, lucifer is not satan. it is the king of babylon. the entire chapter was talking about the king and the context shows that even when lucifer is mentioned, it is still refering to the king. i could get into the original arabic, but ill try to stay on topic.

satan was cast down. the reference is found in revelation (hence why people think isaiah is referring to satan)

rev 12
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Could this possibly be saying that Earth is hell, for maybe we are Satan's angels cast down to earth along with Satan hence the reason why we are here? Hence the reason why we are born with sin and not without... Also with this in mind, couldn't that explain why Jesus came down to earth, to forgive us for our sins and give us a way into heaven through Christianity?...

I mean it would make sense, maybe also why some believe in reincarnation... Maybe that is the way for them because they do not practice the way of Jesus and get stuck in this reborn process that keeps happening over and over for them... Not judging right, so this makes sense, could it be possible?



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 05:00 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by prevenge
exactly why would Yaweh of the Elohim (christians call him the big G because they're conned by the new translations where the title Elohim is LITERALLY CENSORED OUT and replaced by "God")


yeah, nevermind that Elohim is hebrew for god in the superlative form



also..
sounds like satan answers as saying "i've been walking up and down inside the earth" meaning he's in underground caverns.
just .. that's what it reads to me.. beeeecause that's what it frikin' says.


job1
8] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

so god notices that satan has been watching job. im guessing that job was in a cave somewhere? because if satan was in the earth then thats the only logical explanation. oh but wait, "in the earth" is an old english form of "on the earth"

gen 1:[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

underground chickens?

gen 6:[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

giants in the earth?

gen 8:[17] Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

so all animals breed in caves.

those are 3 examples out of 72.

the king james version was written when english was much different. in the earth = on the earth


overall.. satan seems to have a pretty good repoir with the big guy.
they don't eyeball each other all shady etc...
it's all pretty much business... satan.. is pretty much the adversary the accusor the one that tempts.. to TEST man and challenge him in order for him to grow.

doesn't mean he has to be the "bad guy".


except that he challenges god. he even questions god's way of treating job.

job 1
[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

its a challenge, a taunt, not business as usual

prov 27:[11] My son, be wise, and make my heart glad, that I may answer him that reproacheth me.

if it was business as usual, then why does satan get kicked out of heaven later? why does he get destroyed later?



sure subterranean ..."fowls"


breed abundantly IN the earth
and multiply UPON it.

yes.. burrowing.
plenty of birds burrow.

yeah giants IN the earth.


excuse my laymanic ways but i''ve always sensed a distinction between "upon" and "in".

but it really is a sid issue to this thread so don't sweat the ins and outs. wink wink.

thanx tho.


anyway..



"Elohim (אֱלוֹהִים , אלהים ) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה) with a plural suffix. Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesis and occurs frequently throughout the Hebrew Bible. Its exact significance is often disputed."


disputed...uuuhuh... except the fact that that's what it is.. a frikin' plural suffix.

aaanyway..

here's a google search on let US " " create man in OUR image" genesis "
www.google.com...




p.s. thanks for joining this thread.. fun stuff.

-





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