Either there is no god and no paranormal... or there are billions of good liars and dreamers

I think it's easier (and safer) to believe in religion than in ghosts or aliens (or whatever). I see religion as kind of a poetic way to describe reality, which is not so poetic after all. I, as a human, would rather tend to accept the idea of a "saviour" who tells me that I will be saved and I have nothing to fear than believe that we really don't know who we are, where we're going, where we're from, et cetera.

My own beliefs have letely got me thinking of God as a "person". You can imagine all the implications this can bring to the table....

very nice post, Calihan123!

Originally posted by badmedia

This is getting silly. Once again you can't argue against what I say, and resort to using the way other people present it as the only true meaning behind it. You simply can not debunk what I've said. Where is your version of it? I asked you to explain where the king and builder came in, you simply can not do it.

i dont think your understanding this very well

if you invented your own form of gravity and it went as follows "everyone likes to be hugged and touched so things move closer together" now if you brought this up in a physics talk would you expect them to discuss physics using your version? or the original one that doesnt ignore whole chunks of everything

the fact you have supposedly invented your own version (dispite yours matches almost exactly a whole pile of appologestic churches) doesnt mean i should argue yours

you argue yours im arguing the really real one that was there first

And this is a clear sign of ignorance. You honestly believe that 2 people can't come to an understanding seperate of each other? Do you really believe that truth can only come from a single person in time, and that if someone else understands it, they must be plagerizing?

how true are the first few words, can 2 people come to the same conclusion independantly yes

can 1 person come to this conclusion his message is spread far and wide in the middle east for around 100 years before and well after jesus's birth, so chances are that he is fully aware of this message then claim he came to this understanding all on his own? no thats plagerism passing off someone else's work as your own

Why? It's already been done.

www.biblegateway.com...

i call shenanigans!!! shenanigans!!!

25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

wait your own source that you have quoted to disprove my point actually proves my point you were just dishonest enough to leave that bit out

shenanigans!!!

even your great mental super IQ cant even keep your own thinking in line here, youve argued both for and against the same stance a couple of times, insisted we use your weak version of christianity as the arguing point and truth of christianity

youve called dishoensty several times but never once shown how then start quote mining happily around the verses i posted becasue even though its from your chosen source it still doesnt fit your truth

SHENANIGANS!!!

better ask jesus to appear again and ask him what he thinks of lying

[edit on 8/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by noobfun
i dont think your understanding this very well

I think its more like your not making sense.

Noobfun, perhaps you would like to explain the below comment of yours and then Ill be glad to respond from his inspiration.

Originally posted by noobfun
better ask jesus to appear again and ask him what he thinks of lying

Peace


[edit on 8-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by noobfun


If you refuse to take things in it's entire context, then you are purposely being dishonest and/or trolling here.

It's been explained, and at this point the rest is on you. If there is something else you would like clarification on, I'll be happy to give you my take on it. But I'm not about to sit here and keep repeating myself because you refuse to take things in it's proper context.

Originally posted by badmedia

If you refuse to take things in it's entire context, then you are purposely being dishonest and/or trolling here.

your right if i was doing that then i would be


Matthew 10

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

yes the meaning is clear, dont deny jesus or he will deny you, fear not those that can kill you but fear god who can kill you totally. i have come to turn family against family because if you love them more then me is not worthy to be with me

Matthew 12

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."[g]
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"
49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.
50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

while jesus is talking to a crowd his mother and brother turn up, and someone tells him 'yo jesus your mom and bro are here' and he says'who are they? my true mother and brother are my followers and those who do the lords work'

so he denies his mother and brother

Matthew 19

27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

peter says 'look at what we have given up in your name what will we get in return?' and jesus says 'when i sit on a shiney gold throne youll all get one too and so will anyone that abandones thier freinds and family and belongings in my name, and they will be repayed a hundred times what they left behind' yes again abandone your family and children in my name

Mark 7

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions!
10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e]
11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God),

Issah warned about hypocrites like you that practice only in word but not in action, you have stopped following gods traditions to follow your own, didnt moses say to honour your mother and father and anyone that curses his parents should be stoned in the town sqaure, but you say a man who says what ever help i should have given you is a gift from god (meaning dont stone me ill be helpful later)

yes your a hypocrite and unworthy if you dont follow the traditions of the old testament

stone adulterers, homosexuals, oxen that hurt people, unruley children, old men that collect fire wood on the sabath, anyone making or keeping a fire going on the sabbath, anyone working on the sabbath and dont forget to sacrifce your daily sheep too

do you really want me to go on?

ive added extra verses just so you can't cry quote mine and dishonesty

it says what it means, to give it other meaning you have to ignore what it actually says and just add a new meaning so it fits your dogma

like i say dishonesty is all yours

SHENANIGANS!!





[edit on 8/11/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 8/11/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 8/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Noobfun, perhaps you would like to explain the below comment of yours and then Ill be glad to respond from his inspiration.

unfortunatley you cant HIFIGUY

Badmedia got her truth straight from source apparently, which would mean jesus making an appearance and showing him/her what the bible really means

so if he can pop up to do that im sure he will be willing to make a return visit and explain that lying is wrong and what the punishment is for it

Originally posted by noobfun
32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

yes the meaning is clear, dont deny jesus or he will deny you, fear not those that can kill you but fear god who can kill you totally. i have come to turn family against family because if you love them more then me is not worthy to be with me

As I've already explained, this is where he is talking to his disciples. To be a disciple means you had to give up all the physical which could be taken from you, so that you would not steer away from the turth.

The bible says many time that Jesus is the truth and the way. Thus to follow him is to follow the truth. It means to take truth as authority, rather than authority as being truth. So if you love your family more than the truth, and seek to continue the lie for the sake of your family, then you will compromise your beliefs under pressure. In the verses leading up to what you've quoted, he also tells those who will be speaking the truth.

Matthew 12

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."[g]
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"
49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.
50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

while jesus is talking to a crowd his mother and brother turn up, and someone tells him 'yo jesus your mom and bro are here' and he says'who are they? my true mother and brother are my followers and those who do the lords work'

so he denies his mother and brother

He defines his mother and brother as those who follow and speak truth. As before, he is saying truth is more important than family. He was speaking to the lawyers of the pharaoh in these verses. He is pretty much showing here that he follows the demands made on the disciples, because he rejects his family over telling truth.

Tell me, how many "evil" people still put their families first? There is even a verse that talks about this in the bible, can't remember the verse off the top of my head. But it takes about how even an evil man will be good to his child/family.

Have you ever heard "why do you care? Are you and your family safe and ok? Isn't that all that matters?". I hear this often. Pretty much the attitude that leads to people trying to enforce things on other people. "Who cares about the Jews, are you a Jew? What does it matter to you?" And Jesus is telling/showing that there are more important things than just that.

How many times do we hear the common plot of the well being of someone's family used to get someone to do things they don't want to do, or wouldn't normally do? Doesn't happen if you do not put them as most important. And by doing so, he also makes his family safer because they can't/won't be used in such a way.

You might not like what he says, but there is actually a valid reason for it.

Matthew 19

27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

peter says 'look at what we have given up in your name what will we get in return?' and jesus says 'when i sit on a shiney gold throne youll all get one too and so will anyone that abandones thier freinds and family and belongings in my name, and they will be repayed a hundred times what they left behind' yes again abandone your family and children in my name

This particular story starts at 19:16. Where a rich man comes up and says he has done all the commandments, and Jesus tells him to give away his possessions. And the rich man was sad because he had great wealth. And Jesus says it's easier to get a camel through a needle eye than a rich man into heaven. This is due to attachments to those possessions(the rich man couldn't let them go). Then the disciples ask that. And Jesus is basically saying that once truth is taken as authority, then it will be the people who spoke truth who will be remembered and looked up to etc.

Kind of goes along these lines “In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, Brave, Hated, and Scorned. When his cause succeeds however,the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a Patriot.”. Just exchange Patriot as being someone who speaks the truth.

Mark 7

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions!
10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e]
11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God),

Issah warned about hypocrites like you that practice only in word but not in action, you have stopped following gods traditions to follow your own, didnt moses say to honour your mother and father and anyone that curses his parents should be stoned in the town sqaure, but you say a man who says what ever help i should have given you is a gift from god (meaning dont stone me ill be helpful later

You should have added the verse before 6. And take a look at who he is talking to. In reality, you are more like the ones he is talking about. As you have accused me of what the Pharisees accused him of.

5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

On a side note, 6 is exactly what I'm talking about with people who worship the idol, rather than the followings in what is important. People that honor with lips/symbolism, but their hearts are far because they don't actually follow. That would be those mainstream Christians who are homophobic and all those others things.


[edit on 8-11-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


i add more and you still say not enough, if i add more it doesnt change the meaning of what i wrote. just means your playing the move the goal posts game but your onto a looser becasue it still means the same no matter how much you ignore and deny whats written

it doesnt matter who he is saying it to its WHAT HE IS SAYING

he says the same thing over and over to his disciples, to a general gathering of people etc same deal

you added 1 verse and all that shows is they asked jesus a question why he does wash his hands and he says your following the rules of men not the rules of god like you should

such as stoning pretty much everybody like god told you to do

i dont expect you to be honest with me, at least be honest with your self though and read the message not the delusion youve been taught and yes you may not think it but this mesage hass been learnt from an appologetic christian source

im pretty sure jesus wasnt an appologist his actions and words deffinatley say other wise

reply to post by noobfun


You started quoting at where he replied to the people, but the people he is talking to is not important? The fact his response were to people who were accusing him of the exact same thing you accused me of is of no significance here?

You got all up on me saying why don't I follow the laws of moses and that is exactly what the people he was responding to were saying to him in his reply that you quoted.

Just "luck" on my part that it was the verse right before the one you quoted? I didn't write the bible, I didn't set the goal posts here, nor did I move them. If anyone did, you did by not including it original. Had you, then you probably wouldn't have made such a mistake. It's almost as if you were setting it up for me to knock down.

And then you go on to just making general accusations on me as usual, and then group me up into a stereotype/straw man of "apologists" in an intellectually dishonest way of putting me down.

reply to post by badmedia


well they ask jesus why he doesnt follow the rules of man and he rounds on them for not following gods law

so in that context im jesus sorry, your not following the words of god and jesus your following an appologetics version that ignores what is said and whats happening to twist everything into a happy happy fun time message devoid of the reality of the bibles contents

thats why i say fundamentalists are closer to the truth as the take it as it is not feel the need to rework the whole thing so its less about what jesus and god said and more about what the user wants to beleive in the first place

Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Noobfun, perhaps you would like to explain the below comment of yours and then Ill be glad to respond from his inspiration.

unfortunatley you cant HIFIGUY

Badmedia got her truth straight from source apparently, which would mean jesus making an appearance and showing him/her what the bible really means

so if he can pop up to do that im sure he will be willing to make a return visit and explain that lying is wrong and what the punishment is for it

I missed this before. This is not truth. I got my knowledge seperate from the bible. As I gained understanding, not once was the name Jesus even once enter the picture. I searched for the truth to the nature of god and the universe.

I learned from things from asking myself philosophical questions, and then looking for answers. I examined many concepts logically and by doing that, I came to understandings. Once I found the "truth", I then got confirmation of the truths and understandings I had gained repeated back to me in everyday non-related events in synchronicity. I say synchronicity, however I now realize these things were always there and happening, it was only my perception and the expanding of my consciousness that made it seem like synchronicity. That was how I knew I was on to something. When you start to understand real truth, synchronicity will start happening which as you take on a new perspective on things.

After I learned the truth, I then started seeing bible quotes at random times. And where I had before thought "Oh the bible is just mind control crap for ignorant people", suddenly I said - "OMG that is exactly right, this is being presented falsely".

I see the bible in many ways just as I see the movie the matrix. I can say the Matrix gives truth. And some may say to me "Oh thats crazy, we are not held captive by machines and used for batteries". And on that physical level, you might be right. But on a philosophical level, you'd be dead wrong. And it is from asking yourself the deep philosophical questions that the truth will be shown to you. For it is in asking questions and questioning things that you begin to seek. And as Jesus told people - seek and you will find.

To go in on your last post to me and what you say about fundamentalists being "more right", it would be about like arguing that someone who is saying the truth in the matrix is literal and that we are held captive by machines are "more right", and the people who would say no, you have to look at what it's saying philosophically to see the truth would be wrong.

Originally posted by noobfun
well they ask jesus why he doesnt follow the rules of man and he rounds on them for not following gods law

so in that context im jesus sorry, your not following the words of god and jesus your following an appologetics version that ignores what is said and whats happening to twist everything into a happy happy fun time message devoid of the reality of the bibles contents

Which of the commandments am I breaking? And is there not a such thing as forgiving? How do you think you ask for forgiveness? You have to first understand why what you did was wrong, and then you have to not do it again.

All those verses you quote are warnings to people who dare speak the truth, and what is required of you so that you won't settle to keep possessions and things. It tells them if you can't deal with losing such things, then speaking the truth is not for you. Just look at what happens to people who dare question the authority. Can you point me to the happy happy fun time part please? Really the only reward is knowing the truth, and even then you don't have to speak it unless you are willing to be subject to those warnings. But when the world is heading in the direction it is, I find it hard not to speak up.

reply to post by badmedia


if your understanding of biblical law goes only as far as the ten comandments then there really is no point in this discussion, and it also appears your truth doesnt touch on the old testament or the many references to the old testament, and you also missed much of what is said in that passage, is it becasue you deny gods law or becasue you hold mans law so highly that i admonish you?

well before as you said you got the truth straight from source which would be jesus or god them selves, but now your talking philosophy and then noticing your surrounded by bible quotes which is quite often the case in some parts of the USA and UK too. wait so you know the truth of the bible but the truth doesnt have to do with the bible as you had no knowledge of it before.. your own words you found truth then looked at the bible, so no not a strawman

I learned from things from asking myself philosophical questions, and then looking for answers. I examined many concepts logically and by doing that, I came to understandings. Once I found the "truth",

and like i said before you had already formulated your own religeon before you even picked up a bible, you arnt reading the bible you arnt understanding the bible you are reading what you want to be there and understanding what you want it to mean, your reading the whole new testament as a parabell not just the bits that are

this is honestly the first time ive ever come across someone who instead of taking things out of context or taking them in context only focus's on the context as the meaning and ignores whats bieng said or done in it which gives it its meaning, infact id go so far as to say your adding your own context to it to subvert what it says

its like watching a play but ignoring the actors because its the scenery that holds more intrest and importance


sincronicity .. its simpley a trick of the brains, its recognition alertness

notice you see a car you like(doesnt always work with rare cars) one youve never seen before then suddenly you start noticing them everywhere, they were always there you just never told your unconcious to look for them

and an apologist is exactly the bracket you fall in, you cant call strawman to everything you know especially as twice you fal been the victim of completley opossit straw men in your own view point


and the moving goal posts

first its deceitful as i only quote the verse not the ones around it as that gives it a totally different meaning in the context

i add extra verse either side and we still have the same meaning as i laid out before

now its is just the context im ignoring

shall i do the whole passage with its built in context so you can move the post again and what will you cry this time? that the bibles own context is wrong as it doesnt fit the one you wish to impose?

if your context is to be believed jesus would say, you could lose your family or your family will be lost to you if you follow me if he is telling them what they may loose as you keep insiting

but no he is saying YOU MUST ABANDONE THEM or you can not be with me ..... in the bibles own context (sorry i class it as of more importance then your own it is after all written into the bible as the word of jesus himself)

and the context is .. (are you ready?) this is an actual historic event it is a day in the life of jesus(as are all the quotes ive used) these events happened to jesus and he said the things he said becasue thats how he chose to speak his message on that given day at that given situation

this is how it was originally written an actual event in jesus life

this is how it was put in the bible as a real event in the life of jesus

this is how it has been taught as a real event in the life of jesus for as long as the bible (new testament) has existed

for your contexts to be right it could not have been a real event it was a metaphore not a real event in the life of jesus

so do you really know better then all the other christians? see now your gonan call strawman or argument from the masses

but this is fundamentally what you are saying, for you to be right in your assertions they must be wrong

[edit on 9/11/08 by noobfun]

Look, you are just ridiculous. You think the bible is the only way you can learn this stuff? You honestly don't have the first clue what you are talking about, and all you do is keep making accusations about and to me.

www.biblegateway.com...

As I said before, this chapter says exactly what happened to me. When I first realized the truth, the first words I said were - I am god and I am arguing with myself. And that is what John 14:20 also says. Read on what it says afterwards about people who don't get their lessons from Jesus.

This btw, pretty much also dispels the view that "only christians can get the message and go to heaven".

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Maybe you should stick to topics you have a clue about?


[edit on 9-11-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
This btw, pretty much also dispels the view that "only christians can get the message and go to heaven".

no its not the only way to learn about christianity BUT it is the only way to really learn the bible

and both GOD Jesus and Paul said bieng a chrstian is the only way to get into heaven

what your talking about is NOT christianity by any deffinition of the word

what your discribing is more like the ishmaeli sects of the 12th century, they used the quaran and beleived in Allah but thats the extent of thier bieng muslim

[edit on 9/11/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by noobfun


If true, how do you account for when it says otherwise? As I just pointed out?

How do you account for the fact it says exactly what I've been talking about? I've proven you wrong multiple times in what you quote. And btw, taking things out of context as you say, is supposed to be a "sin".

Tell me, why wasn't the bible allowed to be owned by anyone until only a few hundred years ago? And what about before the bible was written. For 400 years people were out of luck?

Tell me, why is it that you have to group everything into being certain ways? And tell anyone else that doesn't fit into the group as you see it, they must act as that group?

Tell me, why does someone who thinks it's all a bunch of bull have such a huge opinion on how it should be taken? Could it be because it's alot easier to dismiss that version as bad, where as you have to lie, take things out of context and tell me I'm wrong because I don't go by their traditions?

Do you believe that if something is presented a way other than how the mainstream institutions present it, then it's wrong? That's pretty much what you've been doing here. "Thats not how that guy on TV who steals peoples money while hiding behind the images talks about it, you must be wrong". Sorry, I will not be forced into such things. These people who use these things as a way of manipulating the people.

How dare I show people that Jesus said they were the authority, not those people. How dare I show people truth that will set them free of the manipulation through symbolism. How dare I show people meanings that aren't superficial and illogical. How dare I show people the verses that give the verses you quoted actual meaning rather than just taking 1 quote as being in it's context.

These people you call Christians are even mentioned in the bible. When you say fundamentalist, you are talking about the people who worship the image of Jesus, and do things in his name. Like the crusades.

You are talking about the version put out by the very institutions Jesus was against and warned people of, as I have shown you multiple times.

Matthew 7

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Meaning, these people who run around in the name of Jesus, doing things in his name and getting people to do things like war and judge people, sentence them to death, promote homophobia, racism and anything else than can find to divide and conquer in the name of Jesus are the ones who work iniquity(sin), and are not actual followers.

These would be the same people you are saying are the only ones who are "right" in the way they present things. You are right that I am not like them, they belong to the religion about Jesus. Where they worship his idol and do whatever they want in his name. I subscribe to the religion of Jesus. And I got my religion and understanding from the same place he did.

And btw, the bible talks about how people will be deceived, and how in the end the veil will be lifted.

Do you think people are going to be deceived if they follow the teachings of Jesus? Or do you think the people who worship his image, don't actually understand what the teachings are, and who do things that go against his teachings are the ones more likely are deceived?

And so why is it, that people both for and against the bible/Jesus have such a problem with me pointing these things out? And yet, the ones who actually believe in the teachings of Jesus don't seem to have a problem with me?

We are told the systems and events will build and lead up to certain things. But I'm wrong in my understandings if I do not agree with and go along with the very systems that do this?

Jesus says the truth will set you free. Where is the freedom in worshiping an idol, and doing what the leaders tell you to do, no matter if you like it or not? Where is that freedom? Doesn't the very meaning of freedom mean that you are the authority over yourself? And yet it's just pure coincidence that the bible plainly states that Jesus taught people they were the authorities, not the leaders. And yet, it's just pure coincidence that if the truth is you are the authority, and then you will be free?

Face it, you only want to pigeon hole people into the mainstream view because it is a whole lot easier to point out the evils and wrong doings by those people as a way of promoting your own agenda and beliefs. It is more convenient for you if the people arguing for Christianity are ignorant to the actual meanings. Just like your little Hitler quote in your signature. Because you were surely counting on ignorance when you started quoting select parts of the bible and leaving out the parts that gave it meaning.

im not at home so i dont have my resources i normally do

but there are numerus neumerous times throughout the new testament where it says only those who accept and follow jesus are are going to heaven

all other jews are condemned to hell and god ad jesus have blinded them so they couldnt be saved even if thy wanted to, als god has preertimend everyonebefore birth if they will ente heaven or hell

an jesus tells his disciple to only preach to the jews not the romans or the gentiles

jesus only wanted jews that would become one of his jews

see the way to read the bible and it not need you to change the meaning of what i said or ignor inconsistencies is to read it and remeber

jesus ran a jewish break away sect, he wanted to convert only the jews to his cause

the gentiles wernt preached to or converted until later when paul realised how badly he was failing at converting jews

the loving jesus was reseved for the jews of jesus, thats why he ignoes his brother and mother becasue they are his family but not of his followers and only those count

take a look at skepticsannotatedbible.com... at the right look for 'injustice' 'cruelty and violence' and the 'intolerance' lists

but always double check some are taken out of context(read a verse or 2 up and down will confirm this) but many arnt

[edit on 9/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by badmedia
Face it, you only want to pigeon hole people into the mainstream view because it is a whole lot easier to point out the evils and wrong doings by those people as a way of promoting your own agenda and beliefs.

actually no

i cant discuss main stream christianity with you as you dont follow or understand its working(you may but your discussing your personal religeon)

in the same way i dont follow or understand your own version so cant discuss it with you, which is why you percive im ignoring what your saying, im not i just dont have an understanding of what it is you beleive strong enough to debate it

in the same way we are having difficulty here because i am discussing mainstream while your discussing your own

your a programmer and ive done some so if we were discussing programing languages im talking about C and your talking about VB or python they arnt compatible in the discussion unless we are comparing merits and draw backs of both languages

the reson you get flak from both sides is your discussing VB in a debate about C and its plus and draw back features



[edit on 9/11/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 9/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by noobfun
im not at home so i dont have my resources i normally do

but there are numerus neumerous times throughout the new testament where it says only those who accept and follow jesus are are going to heaven

And there are numerous times where he says those who believe and accept him will follow the path. And there are numerious times where it points out that people will do things in his name, but are actually working in sin.

And I prove and show that both of these things are true. Just look at how the "Christian right" were all in favor of going to war, and not even in real defense of themselves. Things which go against what Jesus said. They support the killing of other people, and judging them etc. If you will know people by their fruits, then I know these peoples fruits are rotten.

all other jews are condemned to hell and god ad jesus have blinded them so they couldnt be saved even if thy wanted to, als god has preertimend everyonebefore birth if they will ente heaven or hell

And all the christians of today who also follow the symbolism and institutions of today rather than the teachings are fated to the same thing. And hell is not eternal, it's only the result of what you have sowed. You can at anytime pull yourself up out of there. We are in a hell now of my/our own making, unless you suggest this heaven. The deeper you go, the more clear the evil will become. While those in hell who are deeper will gladly like you to believe it's eternal and you might as well play by their rules to the fullest effect, which in turn drives you deeper into it, at any moment you can start to understand the truth, and make your way out of it. As with all paths, the further you are away, the longer and harder that trip will be to make, but it is still there.

If you put your finger on the stove eye, it is going to burn you. And it's going to keep on burning you until you remove your finger from the stove eye and learn the lesson. But no doubt, if you are stupid and don't remove your finger, you will keep getting burnt and it will get worse. And when you do remove it, it's probably going to burn and hurt for a little while longer, the longer you left it on there, the more it is going to do it.

Because what parent punishes their child for eternity? I do not punish my kids to hurt them. I punish them to teach them a lesson. If they do not lear the lesson, then I will have to punish them more. Otherwise, I am not doing my job as a parent. But never would I punish my kids longer or more than is needed. The mainstream view of the christian god has lower morals than even criminals. It can't possibly be true.

an jesus tells his disciple to only preach to the jews not the romans or the gentiles

jesus only wanted jews that would become one of his jews

You mean the roman's present in the land, who were the rulers and the authority which he was against? Do you really think he is picking them out because they are simply romans, or because all the romans there were the people who ruled over them? As the Roman citizens where instead in Rome Italy. Remember those warnings from before? Is it also just coincidence as well, that the way the bible is perceived in the mainstream also from the Roman church?

see the way to read the bible and it not need you to change the meaning of what i said or ignor inconsistencies is to read it and remeber

I have yet to change the meaning of what is said. You have only claimed I did, and that I moved the goal posts because I added in the verses between and proceeding what you quoted.

jesus ran a jewish break away sect, he wanted to convert only the jews to his cause

the gentiles wernt preached to or converted until later when paul realised how badly he was failing at converting jews

the loving jesus was reseved for the jews of jesus, thats why he ignoes his brother and mother becasue they are his family but not of his followers and only those count

take a look at skepticsannotatedbible.com... at the right look for 'injustice' 'cruelty and violence' and the 'intolerance' lists

but always double check some are taken out of context(read a verse or 2 up and down will confirm this) but many arnt

These are all just opinions. I have already shown where and why you were wrong in your claims.