Either there is no god and no paranormal... or there are billions of good liars and dreamers

Ok, didnt read all, but must add my 2c now.

There is so much wrong in this thread!

One Poster mistrusts Mathematics as long as it uses a base 10 system. Wich once more proves that there are 10 sorts of people in the world. Those who understand binary numbers and those who dont. Math doesnt change if you change the symbols. 10+11=101 and 8+3=A. I think its more that you dont understand math, than that you mistrust it.

Another claims that it has been only possible lately to think outside the box. Oh the arrogance of youth! But you are of course right. When Marx and Engels proposed the liberation of the means of production they did so because their fathers told them to. When hippies established communes with *mustn use that word here*-schedules in an attempt to prevent family structures from forming they did so because that is what they learned in school those days.

But OT: The thing is this: There are 2 ways to look at the bible: The "7 days and a snake" faction does exist, but there is also the "its not the props, its the plot" faction. And i dont have numbers on it, but i dare to say the second one is bigger. Now with UFOs and Yetis there is no metaphorical way of looking at it. If i claim "Person A got abducted by Beteigeuzians" It means exactly that. it doesnt mean "Person A got abducted by beteigeuzians and therefore we should nail someone to a tree for suggesting to be nice to each other"

Well this is how i personally see it.

Its like a person is born and all his family , friends and church teach him about god and everything about his religion. Lets assume they tell him that the sky is green. Well one day when hes reaches maturity...i come and tell him hey man..the sky is blue..He looks up and says pffft..you are insane the sky is green. He goes home and after days or so he looks up and says...well wait the sky really looks blue. Then a storm of thoughts and teachings implemented deep in his brain since he was little come through his mind and he says. " Wait my family god and the church warned me about people like him that will come and say that the sky is blue and that i have been lied and said that if i believe it i will go to hell." So the poor man stays with his belief.

After years and years he realises that the sky is actually blue and that everything is a lie. Than the believers come and tell him " Well man think about it ...you don't have anything to lose..if it proves to be wrong and God doesn't exist than you lived a good life following his rules anyways, but if it proves that he exists after you die you will be rewarded."

It's pretty much the same as when people thought that the world was flat. When a person would come and say that the earth is actualy a sphere they would acuse him of being a witch or something because of course everyone was taught to believe that the world was flat.

i find it funny sometimes...I always ask them a question which i never get an answer for it goes something like..." If you were born in another country with another religion as it basis would you still be the same religion you are today?" Never got an answer for it..

In my humble opinion. Religion was merely the early attempt at science. They didnt know how things worked so they conjured up mystical beings that explained what they didnt understand. This is why religion is fighting a one-sided war with science and losing. There are a number of things in the past that people beleived were true because religion told us they were. Science proved religion wrong on a great many of these thigns and now we are left with what Science currently can't explain... Death, Creation, and the Universe. When and if we are able to explain these things religion will then once again try to adjust and say that they still do not disprove god even after they used them so vehemently in the past to prove the existence of god. What makes Christianty the right religion out of literally thousands of religions? And as stated before, if you were born in the middle east would you not beleive with all your heart and faith that muhammad was the savior and not Jesus? When people see that religion is one of the biggest things that divides the people of this planet then we will know peace.

Originally posted by noobfun
so family is a pohysical possession?

your quoting the verses above and below that have no bearing on the meaning of the verses im quoting but calling it dishonest becasue i dont change the meaning to be anything other then it is?

It is talking about compromising your beliefs for the safety of your family etc. Remember, he is talking about disciples, people who would be speaking truth, not just people who listen and follow what is said.

disciple n
1. One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.
2. An active adherent, as of a movement or philosophy.

And I quoted the verses BETWEEN the 2 verses you quoted. you quoted Luke 14:26 and 33, I quoted Luke 14:30, 31, 32. I'm pretty sure that the quotes between your 2 quotes hold alot of value to their meanings.

Seriously, I will quit wasting my time with you if you are going to be dishonest about this. I gave you honest explanations.


[edit on 7-11-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by noobfun
at least the more fundamentalist the mind set becomes the closer it becomes to the bibles teachings, total ignorance racism sexism homophobia but at least honest enough to preach the good book

watching apologetics work on decimating any meaning from a bible verse is like watch a gymnastics floor show in the middle of a heavily mined battle field no matter what they manage to do your always more amzed by the fact they didnt trip over and thier head explode

i might try the mindset later see if i can read MainKampf and not acknowledge any racism and have hitler the humanitarian appear from the other side of the book

I just noticed this post. More baseless strawman attacks.

I'm not racist. I'm not sexist. I'm not homophobic(I was a bit disappointed that prop8 passed here in cali), I live in the bay area. My IQ is in the top 3% of the world. I could read and spell words at the age of 2. I could not write until later as I couldn't hold a pencil, but I would spell words with my letter blocks as a child. I started school a year early, and even then they wanted to have me skip grades in school - thankfully my mother didn't let them, as it was hard enough being even 1 year younger than everyone else(and thus, much smaller).

I'm a self taught programmer who never even graduated highschool, and in less than 5 years I went from never being on a computer in my life outside word processor to now being the CTO of my company. And oh yeah, I was homeless only 8 years ago before I started programming(been CTO for 3 years now).

Looks like your stereotype is completely busted.

[edit on 7-11-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by calihan123
Whether things are real in the physical world or not... they are very real to the people who experience them.

Well, a person can truly believe they're getting fat on double cheeseburgers while actually eating nothing. And they'll still die of starvation. I can believe that I am Superman, but I'll still splat when I hit the ground after I try to fly off a 20 story building.

Sure, you could blame the fictional cheeseburger eater or me, Superman, for not truly believing in it, but there are people out there who have actual mental illnesses and have really freaky perceptions of reality, but those perceptions don't manifest themselves in my reality.

So if a person wants me to share in their reality, they're going to have to come up with something we can perceive and experience in common. Of course, if they don't care if our realities are shared, then neither do I.

reply to post by badmedia


the problem is your not fundamental

your not even close (your pro homosexual to start very unfundamental as god and paul both had a nice line of kill the gays)

your taking the new meaning added to the new king james or international and impressing them onto the king james bible

the words have been changed to give new meaning

would you honestly need me to copy paste and translate into real english what the words are saying?

dishonesty that you keep raisng would be what? that i am reading the words that are there and then not giving them a different meaning?

i guess the strawman must be made of bricks you huffed and puffed and its still standing

[edit on 7/11/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by noobfun


What I am saying is that the fundamentalist viewpoint and the mainstream christian church that is all those things are wrong and do not follow the bible as it is intended. They worship a false idol by putting all their attention and focus to the images and symbolism, and then the leaders use that symbolism to lead people in directions that lead to path of death and destruction.

I am just trying to show people who use the bible as a way of dismissing religion and things as it being a system of control and all that the truth of the matter. That in the words of Jesus there is truth. It would be wrong to dismiss that truth, and probably wanted because of the things done in the name of Jesus. Especially when the bible even says this will happen.

It is important because it is not just done in religion. It is done in everything. And people who are just blatantly for or against the imagery are missing the truth.

I was not raised or forced to believe anything as a child, I was able to make up my own mind. I haven't been brainwashed or any of that. There is truth that I learned outside the bible and seen it repeated there.

By being against the imagery, you play the evil for those trapped in the imagery. You help continue the wheel of duality used to control people, and by doing so you also trap yourself into it. All they are going to see is - you are against my symbol, you are bad. You can call them names all you want, but all you do is press them even more firms in their beliefs. For or against the idol - your focus and attention is still directed to the idol.

The only way either side is going to stop is to realize this truth. And since the above doesn't work, you have to show people on both sides the true meaning. Because in that true meaning there is no real conflict, everyone wants the same basic things.

It's no different than people who wave the flag and do things against the principles of this country. Those people put all their important into the symbols/image and look at what they do. They see their symbols attacked, they want revenge. But the people who try to speak up about the real principles this country was founded, such as liberty and freedom are or ignored or called names.

If you understand an look at what Jesus said and was trying to point out, you will see the the people who do things in his name today, and who have created that hatred for it in people like yourself are doing exactly the opposite of what Jesus says they should do. They submit and give up their authority, when Jesus told them not to, etc. And they do it most times for control over another, without realizing they will reap what they sow, and all they have really done is setup a system that allows for them to be controlled as well. Evident in today.

If people don't start to understand these things, then we are screwed period. We will forever be under the control of people, because only people who deserve and understand the truth will have the ability to live in such a society.



[edit on 7-11-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by calihan123
To the above posts, the bible has never been proved to be real. Jesus was never proved to be a real man who existed.

Should he reveal himself to you, what might you do?:>

Surely you have not spoken to every person that brings his testimony, both of today and yesterday.

Many experiences unto each woman and man are not penned.

Having been a man in which the Lord has revealed himself, I can tell you that much in my life has lost value, yet I have gained everything.

When you find him, what one can say he did not find you? The pearl of great price is not found, but rather, given.

Two people knock upon a door. The door that opens for the believer finds he that is like Jasper behind it.

The door that opens for the non believer, finds nothing.

Revelation is for he that seeks and performs, not for the dabbler and temporal heart.

Peace

reply to post by ExistenceUnknown


Religion is that "dark energy" that we can not account for even in our most rational of inquiries into all existence. It is a certainty in uncertainty itself, in and against all of that which appears obviously to be empirically incorrect, that provides the perfect solution for this most intangible of great equations. It's in our nature. But let's just hope this complacency doesn't get the better of our truest ambitions.

[edit on 7-11-2008 by cognoscente]

reply to post by badmedia


ok now im confused you just held your self up as proof my fundamental example was straw man

and are now saying your not a fundamentalist

now your condeming them for idol worship and for taking the bible literally

while you see the truth(your truth) as the real meaning of the bible

what makes your truth more valid then thiers? the KJV isnt an exact but is one of the closest english translations we have without special editting for adding meaning, so how can you read a literal message then give it a different metaphorical meaning and be so sure your at the truth? then call deciet becasue someone isnt changing the meaning?

your having to missread the wording to fit your version of the truth, taking it literally or reading between the lines is one thing but your totally changing it to fit your truth

Originally posted by noobfun
reply to post by badmedia

 

ok now im confused you just held your self up as proof my fundamental example was straw man

and are now saying your not a fundamentalist

now your condeming them for idol worship and for taking the bible literally

while you see the truth(your truth) as the real meaning of the bible

what makes your truth more valid then thiers? the KJV isnt an exact but is one of the closest english translations we have without special editting for adding meaning, so how can you read a literal message then give it a different metaphorical meaning and be so sure your at the truth? then call deciet becasue someone isnt changing the meaning?

I can talk about these things with the bible. I didn't learn from the bible, I do not think the bible is the only place you can learn it. Which I would say I have proven because I didn't learn from the bible. I can just tell you what he is talking about. I have no problems with other religions, nor do I have the dogma's the others do.

Do only Christians go to heaven? NO. Why? Because the symbolism/imagery wasn't the important part. It's the philosophy and understanding that is important. And that is made available to everyone who seeks it. It doesn't matter what culture you are in, if you do bad things, then you will receive bad things. If you do good things, then you will receive good things. And the bible even says this, Read John 14.

But I'm to be held accountable and such because of their focus and their version of it? When their version of it is opposite of what it says? There are some of those people who actually try to make the end of the world happen. They are nuts.

Everyone should have their own vision. If you believe me because of what I say, then you are blind. As Einstein said - any fool can know, the point is to understand. Anyone can repeat the bible with accuracy, but to actually understand it is something entirely different. It's not about believing me or my "truth", it's about understanding the truth to begin with. In other words, you can repeat my words, agree with me and all that, but you would be ignorant unless you can understand and do it yourself in your "own vision" of things. So don't believe me, find out for yourself.

your having to missread the wording to fit your version of the truth, taking it literally or reading between the lines is one thing but your totally changing it to fit your truth

I showed you what it meant. You were the one who skipped over verses in the middle of your quotes which explained that. Where it directly gave the reason - that you would not be able to finish the job. They were disciples, not people who hear the words and follow. It was their job to speak the truth, and if pressure is put onto you with threats of losing the physical, just like the king who calculates their chances of winning or losing, you will settle for peace to keep your possessions. That is what is meant there, and that is what it is talking about.

Taking things out of context is a very well known way of manipulating things. It's exactly what the mainstream church does, reads a verse here and there to paint the picture they want. I read chapters, not verses.

If you can't read between the lines, then you are blind I'm sorry to inform you. It's like watching a movie like the matrix and then only seeing how cool the special effects were, instead of the philosophy under. Reading between the lines is to see the philosophy.




[edit on 7-11-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
As Einstein said - any fool can know, the point is to understand.

but if your undersatnding is in complete opposites of what is known ... either what you know is wrong or you didnt understand in the first place

Anyone can repeat the bible with accuracy, but to actually understand it is something entirely different.

but your understanding it as the polar opposite of what it says, which is the point im getting at, your truth seems far removed from the truth of what it was when the kjv was frist interpreted, its even further from when the bible was first created

ill agree what we have today is a messed up reworking of the original message but so is yours

thats my point with the fundamentalists they are imo a bit odd and backwards in thie beliefs but the more fudnamental they become the closer the get to the original bibles message

it's about understanding the truth to begin with.

but it is your truth youve brought the loving jesus myth and built your own faith around it as have others on the board

but the examples shown show jesus wasnt the great all loving all accepting
it gets worse when you look into the coptic and gnostics one deals with jesus's boyhood

a man hires joseph for a carpentry job and complains about the resulting work saying its shody and not good enough so jesus blinds the man and leaves him blind

he pushes his friend off a roof and kills him and when people start to shout and scream at him for what he did he says " no no i didnt push him" then brings him back to life and makes him agree with him


essentially your less a christian then a newage reworking with christian conotations its not neccessarily a bad thing youve cut out all the bad stuff from both god and jesus (and theres plenty of it) but your then using your personal faith to misrepresent what the bible says and what is believed by many

[edit on 7/11/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by noobfun


lol, so in your opinion only the way the mainstream Christians point it out is the real way? Narrow minded foolishness is all that is. I guess you would like it that way, because it makes it easier to disprove huh? And you don't like the way I present it, because you can't prove me wrong. In fact, all you have done here is try to equate them to me, and tell me I am wrong based on what they believe - even though you believe them to be wrong.

I got my truth directly from source. I gave you the reasons why it says what it does. Tell me, why do you think he talks about the kings who settle for peace when victory is not guaranteed and the builder who doesn't finish the job between the 2 pieces you quote? You show me what you think it "truly" means, and what the truth is there? You can only quote things out of context to get the meanings you present, and that is the proof you are presenting falsehoods. Tell me, where do the builder and king fit into your viewpoint?

What part of my explanation would you like to try and prove wrong? Or is pointing out that it's different than the way someone else might present it the only thing you got?

You can't change the truth, time always proves me right. It's fine that you don't believe me, I wouldn't believe me either. Rather than being feed a fish, I demand to be taught how to catch them. You don't need to believe me, it's useless. You must understand for yourself.

reply to post by noobfun


Does not every boy learn that which is right and wrong in life? Do we not learn from our experiences?

And how many children of today practice racism and other wrongs because of their culture?

Jesus was a boy, like any of us men were at one time. And surely his father allowed him passage, just as any of us.

Your referencing of Jesus as a youth from a negative standpoint allows the usage of Jesus as an adult in the positive.

Should those stories of Jesus be true, it shows the our Father in heaven allows all of us to come to him as we grow. Surely the newly sprouted vine does not go to seed the instant it rises from the ground.

Observe yea the seasons, how each comes according to its time....

Peace



[edit on 7-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by badmedia
lol, so in your opinion only the way the mainstream Christians point it out is the real way? Narrow minded foolishness is all that is.

no not really its like a game of chinese whispers the closer you are to the start message the closer you get to the original message

and thast what im talking about the origial message not your personal new version or the new version taught by the church of engalnd the original as laid out in the bible version

I got my truth directly from source.

o_0 ask him to stop quoting buddism as his own words, plagerism isnt nice


ok heres the deal

copy paste the verses and translate them into modern english, and i mean translate the words not the meaning you are giving them

then we will discuss the meaning and why its not bieng taken out of context but is being metaphorically changed in interpretation

Its a couple of little things my friend.
The Media, Brainwashing, Conditioning, And Mind Control.
Thats why people could believe Moses could split the red sea and walk across it summon 10 plagues and such. Jesus could walk on water, defy our laws of physics, but yknow, its impossible in our thousand trillion galaxies that there are life on other planets yknow

Originally posted by noobfun
no not really its like a game of chinese whispers the closer you are to the start message the closer you get to the original message

and thast what im talking about the origial message not your personal new version or the new version taught by the church of engalnd the original as laid out in the bible version

This is getting silly. Once again you can't argue against what I say, and resort to using the way other people present it as the only true meaning behind it. You simply can not debunk what I've said. Where is your version of it? I asked you to explain where the king and builder came in, you simply can not do it.

o_0 ask him to stop quoting buddism as his own words, plagerism isnt nice

And this is a clear sign of ignorance. You honestly believe that 2 people can't come to an understanding seperate of each other? Do you really believe that truth can only come from a single person in time, and that if someone else understands it, they must be plagerizing?

Well certainly your presentation here isn't original. Tell me, who are you plagiarizing since we seem to be incapable of original thoughts? Yeah, thats how ridiculous your argument is.

ok heres the deal

copy paste the verses and translate them into modern english, and i mean translate the words not the meaning you are giving them

then we will discuss the meaning and why its not bieng taken out of context but is being metaphorically changed in interpretation

Why? It's already been done.

www.biblegateway.com...

The Cost of Being a Disciple
25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

28"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'

31"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

34"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Can you prove that love exists? You can't see it or touch it but you know it is there. Similar to arguments about God; you either have faith that He exists or you don't. Free will.

I believe in ghosts and God, though I was told that if I believed in God I ouldn't believe in ghosts. Here's why.

It is said that when you die, you're at rest. Your soul doesn't go anywhere until Christ returns therefore the ghosts of your loved ones cannot exist. So I have decided that ghosts are demons that present as familars to trick you. Does that make sense?reply to post by calihan123