Either there is no god and no paranormal... or there are billions of good liars and dreamers

Originally posted by noobfun
actually no

i cant discuss main stream christianity with you as you dont follow or understand its working(you may but your discussing your personal religeon)

in the same way i dont follow or understand your own version so cant discuss it with you, which is why you percive im ignoring what your saying, im not i just dont have an understanding of what it is you beleive strong enough to debate it

in the same way we are having difficulty here because i am discussing mainstream while your discussing your own

your a programmer and ive done some so if we were discussing programing languages im talking about C and your talking about VB or python they arnt compatible in the discussion unless we are comparing merits and draw backs of both languages

the reson you get flak from both sides is your discussing VB in a debate about C and its plus and draw back features

Between programming languages, the only thing that really changes is the syntax and structure. The actual logic's involved for the most part are the same between all languages.

I can and have written in all the languages. It's extremely easy once you understand the basic logic behind program to write in any language.

The only debate between discussing VB and C is which one is better suited for a specific type of program. Not in the programming logics involved. Thus the reason people generally write in pseudo code to express logics involved in how to do something.

And I see religion and such in that same light. Once you understand the logic(philosophy) behind them, then the rest comes naturally. And any decent programmer is going to follow that logic and see where it leads. And anyone who is actually paying attention to what is going on is going to look at the actions rather than the images/people/events gonig on, as that is where the logic/philosophy behind the actions is.

That is how you gain understanding.

Like the part about the disciples. Jesus gives 3 examples to show the meaning and logic behind the reason for the brother and mother thing with the king etc. He does this often in his teachings, but you only wanted to show what he wanted to do, skipped out on the 3 examples and told me I was moving the goal posts.

You and it seems the majority of people who want to dismiss the bible only want to argue against the mainstream version. As soon as I come in talking about what Jesus actually said and meant - in a way which btw, is logical and can be understood, you're arguments seem to fall apart.

Originally posted by badmedia

And there are numerous times where he says those who believe and accept him will follow the path. And there are numerious times where it points out that people will do things in his name, but are actually working in sin.

And I prove and show that both of these things are true. Just look at how the "Christian right" were all in favor of going to war, and not even in real defense of themselves. Things which go against what Jesus said. They support the killing of other people, and judging them etc. If you will know people by their fruits, then I know these peoples fruits are rotten.

hahaha yes yes he does but what he really meant by that was he loved camels and terrapons and they were all going to heaven with a free pass (if your gonna treat it all as a parable then so shall i)

and guess what some of the christian left wanted to go too, and some of the none christian left and none christian right wanted to go too, this doesnt prove your right it just proves some people wanted to go to war

and it also doesnt prove your version of faith is correct either, the earth goes round the sun does not prove that evolution is correct or that toast will always land butter side down when dropped from sufficient height it just proves the earth goes around the sun

And all the christians of today who also follow the symbolism and institutions of today rather than the teachings are fated to the same thing. And hell is not eternal, it's only the result of what you have sowed. You can at anytime pull yourself up out of there. We are in a hell now of my/our own making, unless you suggest this heaven.

i suggest it is neither were in the middle fo the two if christainity and the bible are to be believed

again go read the bible jesus clearly states thrown in to the fires of hell for eternity and once your in there there is no comming back

Because what parent punishes their child for eternity? I do not punish my kids to hurt them. I punish them to teach them a lesson. If they do not lear the lesson, then I will have to punish them more.

exactly the same view god takes when doeling out punishment for breaking his laws, you break it you die, if other people dont learn from your lesson they die and so may thier families . the punishments get worse until eventually he wipes out the nation or race that has offended him where as you punish that child more sternley god punishes the race of man more sternley which is the same view as judaism they are all punished for the actions of any jew is part of the belief system

same with genesis all women are punished for the actions of 1 woman, all men are punished for the actions of 1 man

all snakes are made to wriggle around on thier bellies like they did anyway .... ... erm ... .. becasue of the actions of 1 snake

all donkeys carry a cross on thier shoulders for the actions of 1 donkey

its a trend, one for all and all for one takes an interesting twist suddenly

You mean the roman's present in the land, who were the rulers and the authority which he was against? Do you really think he is picking them out because they are simply romans, or because all the romans there were the people who ruled over them?

my appologies as i said i was working without refferences

it was the gentiles and samaritans Matthew 10:5-6 although you will probabily impose some external meaning onto it

which yes does cover the romans but also covers you and me i can say with reasonable certainty you me and practically every christian of the last 2000 years never should have heard the message of jesus

I have yet to change the meaning of what is said. You have only claimed I did, and that I moved the goal posts because I added in the verses between and proceeding what you quoted.

unfortunatley you have, you may not be aware of it but you have.

you are adding external context "jesus said this becasue he was talking to ... " you are reading and analysing the bible as a parable or play your looking for the message within the story

but it is a historical account of the life of jesus which means it doesnt have extra hidden essoteric meaning, for it to have that it would have to be fictional not factual which would mean jesus didnt do or say those things

so which is it? a real account or a parable?

These are all just opinions. I have already shown where and why you were wrong in your claims.

these are just oppinions as are yours, unfortuantley you havent shown anything except the way you view the bible

which is in a polar opposite to how christainity views it, how historians views it, how the average person on thew street views it, how islam views it, how athiests view it

now im not gonan fall into the they all believe so you must be wrong,

but i will ask how it is yours is the right view when you havnt studdied the bible in the context it was written, have less understanding about its history and traditions and dont have a historical line of writings and research back to the creation of the bible and the life of jesus him self

as i said basically your doing somthing very similer to the Ishmaili nizari of the 11th/12th century. turning the bible* into purely an esoteric book and reinterpreting it to fit, only thier history is way cooler then yours sorry

*the used both the bible and quaran



[edit on 11/11/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 11/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by calihan123
[look at the mayan culture. look at the egyptians. they had hyroglyphics of monsters and aliens... these things have been around just as long if not longer than the bible.

these are no modern day tales

I take it it's been a while since you were at the cinema. Ever read Stephen King? Doctor Who is full of weird creatures and goings on. And what about Heroes?

If our civilisation crashed and burned leaving only a few DVDs of Dracula, future generations would wonder why they didn't have vampires anymore. They would also believe us to be among the most violent races in the history of life. Would they be wrong?

Originally posted by badmedia

Between programming languages, the only thing that really changes is the syntax and structure. The actual logic's involved for the most part are the same between all languages.

good start here yes its similar but not quite the same as between different religeons

And I see religion and such in that same light. Once you understand the logic(philosophy) behind them, then the rest comes naturally. And any decent programmer is going to follow that logic and see where it leads.

good over view but your missing factors here, this is why im saying you are not a christian your belief could be classed as many things but not christianity

if the only language you know is C and then a VB compiler is opened infront of you and your told to make a a certain program with it you cant just go at it becasue you dont understand the object orientated aspect, its going to take time and explaoration and a bit of trial and error to get a grasp of it

right now you understand C(your own faith) and you are trying to force it(VB compiler) to work with C code and no VB objects, you dont understand the object orientated nature of the programming language you dont understand all those different objects you can add from the list on the right or how to add code within them but declaring that VB is wrong and you are right and it must use the same text only structure of C becasue you understand that

you understand C but your insiting your a VB programmer by demanding VB work exactly the same in every detail as C

you understand your faith but your insiting your a christian by demanding it is what you want it to be not by you doing and becomeing what it demands its followers to be, it was here first it gets to make the rules

And anyone who is actually paying attention to what is going on is going to look at the actions rather than the images/people/events gonig on, as that is where the logic/philosophy behind the actions is.

but if its an historical actual real moment in history and time the people and events are the action, your seeing the war but not the people fighting it and the things and tactics they are doing/using to play out the war

your saying Alexander won against Darius at Gaugamela becasue he was alexander the great, your ignoring the fact they were massivley outnumbered, the tactics he initially employed the way he cahnged his tactics to counter Darius's troops, how parmenion's troops had to hold and fight almost the point of collapse, how Alexander ignored this to the last second to go after his personal goal

your seeing only an overview and in many cases its an overview you your self have created

You and it seems the majority of people who want to dismiss the bible only want to argue against the mainstream version. As soon as I come in talking about what Jesus actually said and meant - in a way which btw, is logical and can be understood, you're arguments seem to fall apart.

no not fell apart yet

your view is logic as long as every quote i have brought up is a parable, your dragging esoteric meaning from somthing that doesnt have them, there is no logic just assumtion

you assume he denied his mother and brother becasue he was talking to the pharaise and to enlighten them. how is this logical? it would have to assume that his mother and brother hadnt really turned to visit and said random messenger from the crowd was a plant, or that the event is a parable

its more logical to conclude(given this is a real event) he was talking to the pharaise and others who followed from the temple and someone interupted him and gave him the message he then denied his mother and brother as they wernt his followers ... look that works in the cointext it was written a real event

As soon as I come in talking about what Jesus actually said and meant

the arrogance i dont know if i should laugh, cry or cry with laughter

were you there? no. do you have evidence of what happened there besides the bible? no. so you have a beleif that you know what jesus said and meant, but its a belief you have already said has not come from the teachings of jesus within the bible but were made without the bible and were then enforced onto its content

so what you have actually done is invented your own version of a deity and becaseu christianity is the most dominante form of religeon in your area(or you were introduced to it when younger) you have superimposed some of it over the top of your belief structure

your not debating christianity, you are debating your belief which has some similarities to christianity but its not christianity so when you wade into a conversation about christianity its no wonder people look at you funny and dont want to talk to you.

if i was debating biblical jesus and a muslim using the quaran as his model of jesus entered the dabeat and started demanding we were all wrong and he was right it wouldnt make him right it would mean he is arguing the wrong thing and should go find a fitting debate

they are different and not compatable to the discussion

until we understand what it is you belive its hard to discuss it, we understand christianity many of us here are or were christians but you appear to be the only Badmediaist and while it may be upsetting that no one wants to join the church of badmediaist or follow the truth's of badmedia'ism but it belongs in a deabte about badmedia'ism and not one about christianity


although i would be very interested to hear how you used logic to come to the conclusion christianity was the model to base your own form of religeon on

this would be like using the laws of gravity to expalin why you like blueberry pie more then cherry

logic would indicate there are 2 choices atheism or agnosticism depending on if you want to factor in faith or not

ill explain mine if you expalin yours

[edit on 11/11/08 by noobfun]

Why does one have to believe it all?

Does a restaurant require you to eat their whole dish?

If I find something I disagree with, I will not agree with it and screw you if you tell me otherwise.

Originally posted by calihan123
I don't get it...

billions of people on this earth believe in the bible. in god. in jesus. many other religions believe similar stories that vary.

these people believe it so much, they literally argue and argue and argue that its the truth until they cant breathe.

so my question is this. why is it so easy for everyone to believe the insane stories of the bible, these larger than life stories that in modern day would never ever seem to happen....


yet not many people believe in ghosts?

not many people believe in aliens?

not many people believe in other creatures such as bigfoot and chupacabra?

If we can believe the outrageous claims made in the bible, but we cant even believe a little ghost story...


what kind of hypocrites does that make us?








[edit on 6-11-2008 by calihan123]

First of all it is very easy to prove that the whole of the Bible has its origins in Ancient Egypt, including the mythical Son of God who was IOSA and still is in Gaelic. All of the gospel stories with hardly any exception have been found in Egyptian theology. Have a look at the youtube Zeitgeist on Religion - www.youtube.com... and go on to parts II and III. Also most of the OT patriarchs have been identified as Egyptian kings.

I do know that there is an afterlife and I do know that it has nothing to do with religion other than that they is higher spiritual intelligence which we can all attain to. But this is very much a personal thing and often is only accepted when one is given proof. In other words it has to happen to you to believe without any doubt whatsoever.

I doubt that there really are billions of believers. There are millions who call themselves Christians but never go to a church apart from christening, wedding and funeral. They say they are purely to conform.

From what I have observed this world cannot be real. It has to be something like a great communal dream.

But yes you do have a point in picking out the religious who say they believe in an afterlife, yet when you give them evidence they turn away and start mumbling about the Devil, or just say that they don't believe in spirits.

Dude, everything is based off something else. The Jews spent hundreds of years in Egypt.

You were expecting cultures to not merge.... why?

Originally posted by Gorman91
Why does one have to believe it all?

Does a restaurant require you to eat their whole dish?

If I find something I disagree with, I will not agree with it and screw you if you tell me otherwise.

I agree. It is generally people who have something to gain by pushing people into an all or nothing polarity that do such things. Like noobfun is an atheist. And it is easier for him to argue about the "evils of religion" if everyone has the 1 viewpoint. When you start talking about understandings and don't conform to the main viewpoint, suddenly this atheist is trying to tell people how the bible is to be read.

When I see something I disagree with, then I wonder why it is there. I then start to take a look at the bigger picture. Most of the times when I don't agree with something, it's because whats being presented is being presented out of context. When you read it all, then you understand the point that is trying to be made.

I think it would be foolish to just accept something you didn't think was right just because it's presented in such a way. What someone is doing if they do that is accepting authority as truth, rather than truth as authority.

For example, if you believe that everything Jesus said is truth because he is the son of god. That is to accept authority(son of god) as truth(because he said so). Where as, I accept truth as authority - where ever it may be found. I see Jesus as telling the truth, and thus that truth is the authority - the authority is in the truth he tells. While seemingly it's alot alike, in reality it's not. In reality it's really the difference in knowing something, and understanding something.

So if you just accept it as truth because of the authority, then you aren't understanding, you are just knowing. The greatest thing Einstein every said IMO is - Any fool can know, the point is to understand. How many people can say - E =mc2, and how many people can understand what it means? How many people can say - Jesus is truth, and be right, and how many people can understand why Jesus is truth?

Originally posted by noobfun
hahaha yes yes he does but what he really meant by that was he loved camels and terrapons and they were all going to heaven with a free pass (if your gonna treat it all as a parable then so shall i)

The only thing you are proving is that you aren't really interested in the truth, nor are you interested in understanding what is being presented. You are merely trying to present everything you can in the worse possible way as a way of dismissing it. This is all you have done this entire thread. I am not going to sit here and argue back and forth with you about these things, I will point out the true meanings and explain why it is that way. I am not posting to convince you, I only post because people have privately told me they were getting a lot of understandings from how I showed things. It's a waste of everyone's time to deal with such immature responses like this.

and guess what some of the christian left wanted to go too, and some of the none christian left and none christian right wanted to go too, this doesnt prove your right it just proves some people wanted to go to war

People always want to go to war. Usually out of fear manipulated and generated by leaders. Plenty of information on that topic, the question is how do they do so. And it is always done in the same ways, get people to focus on symbolism and then lead them down paths they wouldn't normally take. Over and over, and that is the entire point in what Jesus was saying about people who do things in his name but do not follow what he taught, and their hearts are far from his.

and it also doesnt prove your version of faith is correct either, the earth goes round the sun does not prove that evolution is correct or that toast will always land butter side down when dropped from sufficient height it just proves the earth goes around the sun

Time and understanding prove me right. Always has and always will so long as I speak only the truth. The bible says - every man will think they are right. And that is true(and here comes understanding), because each person represents their own unique perception. In the entire universe, you and only you have the perspective on the universe that you have. If you thought you were wrong, then you will change your mind. As such, there is no way in the world I could ever possibly prove anything to you or anyone else. It's something you have to do for yourself because it requires the expansion of your own consciousness and perception. The "door" and things that will expand your perception can be pointed out - but you and only you can ever walk through it.

To sin against the holy spirit is to know you are wrong and not change. That is to deny truth and promote ignorance.

i suggest it is neither were in the middle fo the two if christainity and the bible are to be believed

again go read the bible jesus clearly states thrown in to the fires of hell for eternity and once your in there there is no comming back

It is possible to happen. So yes, you can throw yourself into the "fires of hell" for eternity, and you will not come back. No different than if someone refused to admit the stove eye is burning them, and leaves their finger on the stove eye. And you can sit around blaming god or whoever for making the stove eye hot, and tell the world how they are to blame for the pain you endure, but once again - it's your own fault and you can take your hand off the stove eye anytime you please. I can very much see how someone might do such a thing, especially when people are all to happy to blame something other than the stove eye and their ignorance of holding their finger to it.

Btw, what makes you think you aren't in a form of hell already?

same with genesis all women are punished for the actions of 1 woman, all men are punished for the actions of 1 man

all snakes are made to wriggle around on thier bellies like they did anyway .... ... erm ... .. becasue of the actions of 1 snake

all donkeys carry a cross on thier shoulders for the actions of 1 donkey

its a trend, one for all and all for one takes an interesting twist suddenly

You will have to post verses. Sorry, not going to respond to your claims of what it says, especially given your history of taking things out of context.

it was the gentiles and samaritans Matthew 10:5-6 although you will probabily impose some external meaning onto it

which yes does cover the romans but also covers you and me i can say with reasonable certainty you me and practically every christian of the last 2000 years never should have heard the message of jesus

As I already told you, I did not get the message from Jesus, I got it from source. But that I can see Jesus spoke truth. There is an explanation for this, which from what I browsed in your 2nd post can be addressed there. It will be when I talk about different cultures. I will try to post a reminder when I post it that I am talking about this part as well.

unfortunatley you have, you may not be aware of it but you have.

you are adding external context "jesus said this becasue he was talking to ... " you are reading and analysing the bible as a parable or play your looking for the message within the story

but it is a historical account of the life of jesus which means it doesnt have extra hidden essoteric meaning, for it to have that it would have to be fictional not factual which would mean jesus didnt do or say those things

so which is it? a real account or a parable?

I look for understanding in it.

www.answers.com...

parable n. A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.

I could care less if Jesus was real or the history of it. It doesn't matter to me at all. What I do care about is the understandings contained within. The understandings given when you understand what a parable is in the first place. But as the bible says Jesus spoke in parables, then obvious it can be both, and is not a dualistic switch of 1 or the other. I don't know, I wasn't alive back then that I can remember and only have text to go on.

these are just oppinions as are yours, unfortuantley you havent shown anything except the way you view the bible

which is in a polar opposite to how christainity views it, how historians views it, how the average person on thew street views it, how islam views it, how athiests view it

now im not gonan fall into the they all believe so you must be wrong,

but i will ask how it is yours is the right view when you havnt studdied the bible in the context it was written, have less understanding about its history and traditions and dont have a historical line of writings and research back to the creation of the bible and the life of jesus him self

And during the times of the bible, most everyone was wrong, thus why he needed to send out the disciples in the first place. And it is told that people will be fooled again at the end.

All that history and stuff focused on the idol is exactly what I called it - the religion ABOUT Jesus. As I told you before, I belong to the religion OF Jesus. Rather than knowing everything Jesus did, on what timeline and all that other "history", I choose instead to understand.



[edit on 11-11-2008 by badmedia]

You are absolutely right. Popular opinion is whatever the majority of the population has said, says it is, and says will be.

I often think that, assuming alternate realities exist, we in this reality simply put more weight on the belief of God and Jesus, etc. But whats to say that in alternate realities/timelines, weight isn't put on the things we scoff at?

From that we can ask, who is right? Does "right and wrong" (not in the moral sense) even really exist?

Originally posted by noobfun
good start here yes its similar but not quite the same as between different religeons

good over view but your missing factors here, this is why im saying you are not a christian your belief could be classed as many things but not christianity

if the only language you know is C and then a VB compiler is opened infront of you and your told to make a a certain program with it you cant just go at it becasue you dont understand the object orientated aspect, its going to take time and explaoration and a bit of trial and error to get a grasp of it

right now you understand C(your own faith) and you are trying to force it(VB compiler) to work with C code and no VB objects, you dont understand the object orientated nature of the programming language you dont understand all those different objects you can add from the list on the right or how to add code within them but declaring that VB is wrong and you are right and it must use the same text only structure of C becasue you understand that

you understand C but your insiting your a VB programmer by demanding VB work exactly the same in every detail as C

you understand your faith but your insiting your a christian by demanding it is what you want it to be not by you doing and becomeing what it demands its followers to be, it was here first it gets to make the rules

Culture is your operating system. Truth and logic are universal. Each culture has their own version and stories. But the underlying truth and logic/philosophy is basically the same. I was born in a culture of christians, it is therefore easier for me to explain things to people in this culture in the terms of Jesus. If I were doing as you say, then I would be trying to teach islam to christians or vice versa. That would be trying to force a VB compiler to read C.

As I understand the logic and philosophy behind them, as long as I can communicate I can do so really in any belief system. I have non-christian friends I talk about this stuff to, but I don't do it in the name of Jesus, I just point out truths and understandings. It's funny, they often tell me - I'm a big fan of Jesus, just not a big fan of the people who worship him.

Anyway, this is basically what turned me towards the bible. It was when I realized the truth is universal and the idols and story only change with the cultures, that the underlieing truth was universal that I started talking about the bible as something other than mind control. I think this is most likely the explanation of Matthew 10:5-6 from above. For him to send them out to the other culture would be what you say above - trying for force a C compiler to process VB code.

As I pointed out before, it is the people who then put the focus on the idols such as Jesus, Buddah, Allah etc rather than the universal truths under it that manipulate people and get them to do things against their fellow humans, where as if they looked and focused on the truth being spoken, they would not be fooled into doing such. The mainstream version you keep trying to pass off as truth and such is exactly those who do this, and exactly those who do things in the name of Jesus, but work in sin - as they do things against the teachings.

but if its an historical actual real moment in history and time the people and events are the action, your seeing the war but not the people fighting it and the things and tactics they are doing/using to play out the war

your saying Alexander won against Darius at Gaugamela becasue he was alexander the great, your ignoring the fact they were massivley outnumbered, the tactics he initially employed the way he cahnged his tactics to counter Darius's troops, how parmenion's troops had to hold and fight almost the point of collapse, how Alexander ignored this to the last second to go after his personal goal

your seeing only an overview and in many cases its an overview you your self have created

Actually, I would be more interested in what happened that lead up to the war in the first place, and then looking at the philosophy and logic each side used. All I see in what you posted is X army lost to Y army because X army had less numbers than Y army. Hell, that in itself repeats in history over and over. Iraq army lost to US army because Iraq army has much less numbers and power than US army. You put all the importance into the variables, and knowing those variables, when it is the equation(logic/philosophy) that tells the same truth in each and every example.

I skipped out the part about the mother/brother thing. It's been discussed, and you completely misrepresented what I said in your response.

And pretty much the rest of your post was a bunch of crap spewed out. Like was I there? Were you? All the things you accuse me of can be said of anyone of these times, as if they don't apply to you or anyone else. Classic example of 3 fingers pointing back at you when you point the finger at someone else.

If the things I say do not make logical sense, then point them out. But for some reason, you can't do that. All you can do is hold popular belief as being different than mine as a way of claiming I am wrong.

Go do a google search for "Christ consciousness".

Originally posted by prototism
You are absolutely right. Popular opinion is whatever the majority of the population has said, says it is, and says will be.

I often think that, assuming alternate realities exist, we in this reality simply put more weight on the belief of God and Jesus, etc. But whats to say that in alternate realities/timelines, weight isn't put on the things we scoff at?

From that we can ask, who is right? Does "right and wrong" (not in the moral sense) even really exist?

Not only do alternate realities and timelines exist, every possible alternate reality and timeline exists. All side by side, all at once.

The universe is static. Imagine you are looking at a movie. If you were to know all things, then it would be like looking at the movie film all stretched out. It is not until we take on a limited perception of that movie, that it has it's "timeline". We view 1 frame at a time, in order of 1 after the other, and we get "time".

Each frame of that film and as it moves forward across it, is actually moving into a new dimension/alternate reality of that film.

But rather than there being just 1 film, turn it into a choose your own adventure film. Where everything possible is laid out side by side. And then choices you make determine your path across these multiple films. From your limited perspective of it, it feels like a single timeline, and you are stuck in the same "dimension" etc. But in reality, you are moving in all kinds of directions, it's only your perception that creates linear time. Time doesn't exist.

A simple example. You are sitting at your PC, you can raise either your left arm, or your right arm. Both possibilities/dimensions exist, you can choose which one you do. And so you choose and that piece of reality becomes real. Of course, you can easily see how it could have gone the other way, and you could have chosen that. And well most likely you are in the timeline which did neither, as you just read and understood the point without actually doing it.

So then, you will reap what you sow. The choices you make will determine the path you take across it. If you do bad things, then you move in a direction that reflects that. If you do good things, then you move in a direction that reflects that. If you rob a store, then most likely you will be moving to a dimension that includes you being in jail.

Notice people like Jesus talk about walking the right path to heaven and so on. This is what they mean. If you follow the teachings of Jesus, you will take a path towards a more peaceful and understanding society. If you do not follow that path, and instead you support war, death and destruction due to intolerance of others, then that leads to more of a "hell".

Without this, freewill can not exist. Do the tracks free or enslave the train? The truth is the tracks will only provide the illusion of freedom, as soon as the train decides it wants to go in a direction other than the tracks, he quickly realizes he was not free at all.

Imagine what a perfect society, and how the people will have to act towards one another for it to be such. And then be that change, rather than trying to force it into others. That is the path that will lead you there. You do not rid the world of evil by becoming the evil yourself, you will merely replace it with an even greater evil. Thus what Jesus showed people by dieing on the cross, rather than deciding to fight back. He showed people this truth and the path.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by badmedia]

areply to post by badmedia


no you dont need to eat the whole meal or accept all of the christianity package to be a christian you do however have to beleive the bits of christianity that define what a christian is

which means no extra external parable esque truths can be grafted on, becasue that would mean jesus wasnt really there and didnt really say what he said, which is a fundamental tentit of christianity

you could have got away with this upto 200 AD but were not there anymore and they have been stricken fromt he ranks of christianity

do i want to lump everyone into 1 lump, nope infact depending on the thread you find me in you may sometimes find me arguing for religeon not just against it, also why i argue depends on the views of who i argue agianst and what perticular brand of dumb they are toughting

i have no intrest in the truth ... yes your right

in this discusion im interested in the christian view of truth not the badmediast view of truth

to hold yours up above all others is as i said at the very least arogant and bordering dilusional

and that is the entire point in what Jesus was saying about people who do things in his name but do not follow what he taught, and their hearts are far from his.

again i ask were you there? what evidence have you? why do you know better?

the fact you asked your self a few questions and formulated your own belief structure doesnt in anyway shape or form mean you got it right, from an historical view point of that time and early church writting your way way way off base

the bible is correct becasue the bible says that what i beleive is that (bend in a circle and repeat mantra until your dear and fluffy lords come to collect)

your using the bible to prove your view of the bible is the correct view of the bible, this is an old trick and does nothing to prove your cause circular logic is for the illogical

Btw, what makes you think you aren't in a form of hell already?

becasue the bible and christianity is very clear what hell is, badmediaism follows a different path

You will have to post verses. Sorry, not going to respond to your claims of what it says, especially given your history of taking things out of context.

and the funny thing is they are all important biblical events and most of them hapen within a few sentences of each other, why do i beleive you dont have a clue about the bibles contents or meaning ... you keep showing you dont

As I already told you, I did not get the message from Jesus, I got it from source. .

cant read the bible properly cant read a reply properly either it seems ........

you and i shouldnt have ever heard the message of jesus becasue we are gentiles, its got nothing to do with mini jesus popping up on our shoulder and whispering nothing to do with him comming in a dream your a gentile and so am i and probably so is 95% of the board users

again your showing a lack of knowledge of both bible content context and history

p.s. you keep saying source, the source for christianity would be Jesus or Paul/Saul. you did not get it from source you like to use that word without a real explanation,

but as you have said your asked your self phylosophical questions and gained your understanding of faith and deityism which would mean source is in your head. essentially you made your source up but your demanding it be taken as fact ..thats funny

I could care less if Jesus was real or the history of it. It doesn't matter to me at all. What I do care about is the understandings contained within. The understandings given when you understand what a parable is in the first place. But as the bible says Jesus spoke in parables, then obvious it can be both, and is not a dualistic switch of 1 or the other. I don't know, I wasn't alive back then that I can remember and only have text to go on.

you couldnt care less if jesus was real or historical.... thansk for finally admiting your not a christian, to be one you have to beleive those very same things

but when you understand what a parable is then you would understand you cant always speak in parable its impossible, you can always speak in narrative but not in parrable. does it have to be a duelistic switch ..yes he spoke in parrable and in really real normal like everyone else talks otherise no one would understand what he was on about most of the time and the bible would be filled with the parable of the one who passed the bottle of wine, the one who went to fetch the bread from market

theres a simple way to tell when jesus is talking ..he is talking

when he is telling a story with an external moral thread wound through it thats a parable

Anyway, this is basically what turned me towards the bible. It was when I realized the truth is universal and the idols and story only change with the cultures, that the underlieing truth was universal that I started talking about the bible as something other than mind control.

If the things I say do not make logical sense, then point them out. But for some reason, you can't do that. All you can do is hold popular belief as being different than mine as a way of claiming I am wrong

ok lets do that shall we

and if you were in india you would have found the truth of hindusim or bhuddism and in the middle east found the truth of islamic jesus, so your turth is bound to locality and not a global truth so as said logic got lost along the way if it was global you would value the quaran as highly as the bible and every other religeous text

you want to go logical on religeon here we go ready

for thousands of years man has worshiped literally thousand of gods, not one of those gods has been proven to exist

of these thousands of gods only a handful are today worshipped, gods are worshipped replaced and recycled into the new dieties of choice time and time again. as modern gods have failed to prove them selves they wil inevitably go the same way as they predocessors(infact islam is already doing this) they will be replaced recycled and reworshipped under a different name with a different face

people of all religeons claim to have a religeous experience a moment of ultimate clarity when they see the truth of god(only evr thier god of choice though), athiests and agnostics also describe similar moments of clarity and enlightenment but do not acredit them to any specific god or to a god at all

see this is where faith/no faith cahnges the answer

2 possabilities exist for this either

it is a natural part of the conciouse/unconcious mind that we as yet do not understand and its this naturaly action that is bieng attributed to some higher power wrongly, and with time the gods we have now will be pulled down recycled and replaced with other equally as silly gods (athiest - without faith)

or

this experience hints at a higher power that occasionally we tap into or become aware of, this higher power is not found in anyone of the worlds religeons specifically and the commonalaties of all religeon would suggest they are just a poor attempt to understand this higher power making all religeons equally bad at showing the truth, god is a power we as yet have little understanding of and no religeon is great enough to come close to encompassing its reality (agnostic-with faith)

And pretty much the rest of your post was a bunch of crap spewed out. Like was I there? Were you? All the things you accuse me of can be said of anyone of these times,

we have written accounts leading back almost to chirsts death thanks to the early churches, were they there no can they read from sources that were there yes, can you, no

they have the historic high ground of how the bible was written/to be read


[edit on 12/11/08 by noobfun]

external? You were quoting things out of context, I was quoting the verse before and between the verses you quoted. A a parable is simply a story given to convey an understanding. But yet, in what you say the understanding isn't valid.

Not once have you yet to be able to show me where I am wrong. It's the same old story, over and over in this thread. And that is you accusing me of being wrong, based solely on the perception of Christianity by the mainstream. I openly and freely told you, and others that I am not your typical christian.

in this discusion im interested in the christian view of truth not the badmediast view of truth

to hold yours up above all others is as i said at the very least arogant and bordering dilusional

Have you completely forgotten what this thread is about? It was someone talking about how people change almost over night into belief and such.

You calling it "badmediast" is just a lame personal attack on your part. Why do you need to resort to Ad hominem attacks?

Whats funny, is that Christians actually quite often agree with what I say, and understand what I say. Even none christians understand what I am saying.

In fact, for a good bit of the thread, you even called me a typical christian apologist. Once that didn't work, and I proved your claims wrong by putting things into perspective, you start attacking me because I didn't get my understanding from the bible, and even your most recent desperate attempt in ad hominem attacks.

again i ask were you there? what evidence have you? why do you know better?

I've quoted it multiple times in this thread, it came directly out of the bible.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

the fact you asked your self a few questions and formulated your own belief structure doesnt in anyway shape or form mean you got it right, from an historical view point of that time and early church writting your way way way off base

The bible says - seek and you will find. The way you seek is by asking questions. I did not just make stuff up in my head, I thought about things logically. I researched and contemplated ideas for a few years. From religion, to physics and so forth. As it says in John 14:20, what started it all was the realization that everything is connected, that we are all 1, and that my consciousness was god. Once I realized that, the rest just really fit right into place. I then started to see little bible quotes here and there, and started looking at the bible deeper, and for the first time it actually made sense.

Skipping over your old tired arguments here a bit.

and the funny thing is they are all important biblical events and most of them hapen within a few sentences of each other, why do i beleive you dont have a clue about the bibles contents or meaning ... you keep showing you dont

If you know it so much better, then why did you start posting in this thread by taking things out of context?

As I already told you, I did not get the message from Jesus, I got it from source. .

cant read the bible properly cant read a reply properly either it seems ........

you and i shouldnt have ever heard the message of jesus becasue we are gentiles, its got nothing to do with mini jesus popping up on our shoulder and whispering nothing to do with him comming in a dream your a gentile and so am i and probably so is 95% of the board users

again your showing a lack of knowledge of both bible content context and history

p.s. you keep saying source, the source for christianity would be Jesus or Paul/Saul. you did not get it from source you like to use that word without a real explanation,

but as you have said your asked your self phylosophical questions and gained your understanding of faith and deityism which would mean source is in your head. essentially you made your source up but your demanding it be taken as fact ..thats funny


The source I got it from was from god and the holy spirit. Just as the bible says will be done.

And now you are saying that Christians, the people who follow Jesus are "gentiles" based on what the term meant for the time? Are you actually suggesting that only Jews can hear Jesus?

And where have I asked you to take anything as fact? All I have done is pointed out how you have taken things out of context, and provided meaning. As I remember it, you were taking things out of context and asking everyone else to take that as fact.

you couldnt care less if jesus was real or historical.... thansk for finally admiting your not a christian, to be one you have to beleive those very same things

finally? I openly admit it, and tell people exactly that. Multiples I have told people that. The idol is not important to me, the message is. I do not think it is a stretch at all that Jesus has done these things. I just plain and simple do not know 1 way or another. And if you could prove to me he never existed, it wouldn't matter at all to me because I will still believe in the message.

A parable is designed to give understanding, bottom line. Most often the parables come as the result of 1 of the disciples asking for clarification on what he said while talking. Coincidence?

Originally posted by noobfun

If the things I say do not make logical sense, then point them out. But for some reason, you can't do that. All you can do is hold popular belief as being different than mine as a way of claiming I am wrong

ok lets do that shall we

and if you were in india you would have found the truth of hindusim or bhuddism and in the middle east found the truth of islamic jesus, so your turth is bound to locality and not a global truth so as said logic got lost along the way if it was global you would value the quaran as highly as the bible and every other religeous text

It's pretty simple. The truth is universal, the idol(messenger) changes from culture to culture. The truth doesn't change, just the way it is convey'd. The major flaw in all religions is that they focus on the idol rather than the understandings. That would be the things they do in the idol or gods name.

for thousands of years man has worshiped literally thousand of gods, not one of those gods has been proven to exist

of these thousands of gods only a handful are today worshipped, gods are worshipped replaced and recycled into the new dieties of choice time and time again. as modern gods have failed to prove them selves they wil inevitably go the same way as they predocessors(infact islam is already doing this) they will be replaced recycled and reworshipped under a different name with a different face

Idols. False idols at that. And as they are all false idols, including the idol of Jesus they will continue to be replaced with new idols, because the idols were never the important thing to being with. Understanding however keeps evolving.

people of all religeons claim to have a religeous experience a moment of ultimate clarity when they see the truth of god(only evr thier god of choice though), athiests and agnostics also describe similar moments of clarity and enlightenment but do not acredit them to any specific god or to a god at all

Perception. In these moments of clarity or whatever, you experience things which aren't exactly describable in words, and have no real names. As such, you will look for the closest things you can find to try and convey what you've seen/understood.

2 possabilities exist for this either

it is a natural part of the conciouse/unconcious mind that we as yet do not understand and its this naturaly action that is bieng attributed to some higher power wrongly, and with time the gods we have now will be pulled down recycled and replaced with other equally as silly gods (athiest - without faith)

or

this experience hints at a higher power that occasionally we tap into or become aware of, this higher power is not found in anyone of the worlds religeons specifically and the commonalaties of all religeon would suggest they are just a poor attempt to understand this higher power making all religeons equally bad at showing the truth, god is a power we as yet have little understanding of and no religeon is great enough to come close to encompassing its reality (agnostic-with faith)

As for the first part, that will only hold up until you realize the limited perception and start asking what consciousness is. What it is "to be". To whom are these feelings and images the brain presented to? Our eyes take in light, which is then converted into electrical patterns. Those patterns travel to the back of the brain where they are converted again into the images/reality we see. Who is the viewer? I was once atheist, until I realized it was completely arrogant to make such assumptions based on a very limited perspective.

As for the 2nd, as I have been trying to point out to you - The reason religion has been a poor attempt at showing the truth is because all the focus is put on the idol/messenger rather than the understandings that are trying to be shown. By design, and because of people who understand that the true power in symbols relies on the people who follow them, and what you can get them to do based on that symbolism. People are forced and manipulated into following the symbolism instead of the teachings, and when anyone points out the understandings, such as I and others have done, they are treated exactly as you have treated me. The people who focus on the idol/symbolism are blind to the truth, they are deceived and lead down bad paths. History has shown this. However, the people who understand the truth that is being shown are the ones who are not deceived by the symbolism. For example, they aren't going to be fooled by someone claiming to be a christian, and then voting for them. They are not the ignorant, they are not the right wing Christians, and they will tell you exactly what I tell you.

we have written accounts leading back almost to chirsts death thanks to the early churches, were they there no can they read from sources that were there yes, can you, no

they have the historic high ground of how the bible was written/to be read

Directly after the bible was compiled into what it is today, it lead to the dark ages. And these people have the historic high ground? The common people weren't even allowed to own a bible. Where as Jesus taught people they were the authority, and not the scribes, you make the claim that the scribes are the ones with the historic high ground? What nonsense.

And that is really the same old story. Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, which still leaves him dependent on you and compromised. Teach a man to fish, and he can feed himself, but then he is no longer dependent or compromised. Why should I, or anyone else rely and be dependent on a few to get the truth, when all it takes is understanding to learn how to get it yourself and not be dependent on them. And is it just coincidence that Jesus also said this? How can you be free if you must rely on the scribes and are dependent on them for truth. They can just tell you whatever suits their purpose as long as you are too blind to see it for what it is.

If the truth is what will set us free, and these scribes have been giving people truth for 1600+ years, then why are we still slaves?

its easy..religions promise the most amazing present..gift..imaginable..eternal life and eternal justice..

people are bribed and blackmailed into believing the god thats best marketed in their part of the world..

aliens..ghosts...pixies etc dont promise eternal life and they dont have such great marketing.....so..people see no need to believe in them...people are not scared into believing in them...

theres no point believing in ghosts or fairies..youve nothing to gain if you do and nothing to lose if you dont...

TRUTH plays no part in any of this...fear and promises make people believe in their god.

Originally posted by badmedia
external? You were quoting things out of context, I was quoting the verse before and between the verses you quoted. A a parable is simply a story given to convey an understanding. But yet, in what you say the understanding isn't valid.

Not once have you yet to be able to show me where I am wrong. It's the same old story, over and over in this thread. And that is you accusing me of being wrong, based solely on the perception of Christianity by the mainstream. I openly and freely told you, and others that I am not your typical christian.

yes i whole heartedly agree you are not a typical christian as you are not a christian

muslims beleive in jesus too but they are not christians as they dont hold the tenats of christianity to be true, christians and muslims beleive in the abrahamic god but are not jews becasue they dont hold the jewish tenats to be correct

you beleive in jesus but do not hold the fundamental tennets of christainity to be true so there fore you are not a christian... theres a whole host of things you can beleive once you get in this group but your not even making it past security

as for out of context? i quote the verse you say your miss quoting it your not showing more of the text, i quote more of the text and it still shows the same you then call out of context and add extrenious content and meaning

the bible has its own context, jesus goes to temple heals a man, jesus leave people follow he talks to the people, some of the pharosei also followed one asks him a question, he answers question someone interupts jesus to alert him to the presence of mother and brother, he denies them saying that only his true followers shall be coinsidered family(and thereby saved)

that is the shortended version in context

this differs to what your trying to impose on it and then tell people is the truth of the bible

Have you completely forgotten what this thread is about? It was someone talking about how people change almost over night into belief and such.

You calling it "badmediast" is just a lame personal attack on your part. Why do you need to resort to Ad hominem attacks?

this is a comparative comment not and ad hominem

i shall place this next to the pile of none strawman strawman you created, your really not good at calling the various appeal/argumnets types are you (this is an ad hominim ^_^)

I've quoted it multiple times in this thread, it came directly out of the bible.

more circular logic 'im right becasue the bible is right and it says' (join the ends and repeat some more)

The bible says - seek and you will find. The way you seek is by asking questions. I did not just make stuff up in my head, I thought about things logically. *snip*Once I realized that, the rest just really fit right into place. I then started to see little bible quotes here and there, and started looking at the bible deeper, and for the first time it actually made sense.

you formulated the idea in your head then when it had fallen into place you started to read the bible as i have said ...several times

no chance you could be forcing your already formulated view of the truth onto the bible? obviously not that would be shere foolishnes to sugget wouldnt it

Skipping over your old tired arguments here a bit.

ad hominim and unfounded ^_^

If you know it so much better, then why did you start posting in this thread by taking things out of context?

i have yet to take it out of context

the verses i removed to save long bible quites do not change the meaning

well not unless i force external context onto them to change them for my own aims .. which would be a bad thing wouldnt it ^_^

The source I got it from was from god and the holy spirit. Just as the bible says will be done.

ahh my bad i picked the wrong bit of the holy trinity .. does god and the holy spirit live in your head then? (sarcasm not an ad hominim)

And now you are saying that Christians, the people who follow Jesus are "gentiles" based on what the term meant for the time? Are you actually suggesting that only Jews can hear Jesus?

well based on the fact the word has alway meant none jewish people

and jesus said do not go to the gentiles(none jews) but only to the israelities(jews) then yes thats exactly what i am saying

not that you cant hear jesus but you were never meant to it wasnt intended for you by jesus as your(fairly good chance even without knowing you) not born jewish and there by a gentile ^_^

And where have I asked you to take anything as fact? All I have done is pointed out how you have taken things out of context, and provided meaning.

you have asked me to take your misreading and added external context as truth which would make that the factual way to read the bible

which it clearly isnt

As I remember it, you were taking things out of context and asking everyone else to take that as fact.

b12 fatty acids are good for memory maybe you should take a few (ad hominim ... ill build you some strawmen later and point those out too)

reading a book in the way it was intended and drawing conclusions from the words inside is not taking somthing out of context

substituting internal context for your own external context and narrative would be classed as out of context

finally? I openly admit it, and tell people exactly that. Multiples I have told people that. The idol is not important to me, the message is

but still you insit your a christian -_-

hey im a muslim that doesnt believe in allah or muhammed - does this statement seem odd to you?

im a christian that doesnt beleive or care if christ was real - same deal

A parable is designed to give understanding, bottom line. Most often the parables come as the result of 1 of the disciples asking for clarification on what he said while talking. Coincidence?

metaphors and parables are a good way to simplify or give a comparative understanding

but they are not general conversation or general discussion, they are very different things and at least i thought failry easy to distinguish .....



[edit on 12/11/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 12/11/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by hidatsa


It's always a safe bet to not worship anything or any entity at all.

For one, you never know if this "GOD" is tricking you when it's actually just another being in the universe or a made up story. But, even if there is a GOD entity, then that entity would be understanding of your confusion an forgive you. As long as you remember not to worship yourself, you can't go wrong. Morals and truth still stand no matter which side you take.

win-win

Originally posted by badmedia
It's pretty simple. The truth is universal, the idol(messenger) changes from culture to culture. The truth doesn't change, just the way it is convey'd. The major flaw in all religions is that they focus on the idol rather than the understandings. That would be the things they do in the idol or gods name.

the truth is universal but you still grabbed for your local version of the idol of choices book of idolism -_- have you also read the veda's? the quaran? they are just as important to universal truth unless your truth isnt actually universal more a local watered down sort

Idols. False idols at that. And as they are all false idols, including the idol of Jesus they will continue to be replaced with new idols, because the idols were never the important thing to being with. Understanding however keeps evolving.

but you still grab for your local idol worshipers hand book to prove your truth i smell Fallacy of ambiguity and its scent is storng its like a whole herd of them in this very post im replying too

Perception. In these moments of clarity or whatever, you experience things which aren't exactly describable in words, and have no real names. As such, you will look for the closest things you can find to try and convey what you've seen/understood.

the point i made

As for the first part, that will only hold up until you realize the limited perception and start asking what consciousness is.

here comes the im right the world is wrong argument again

can you prove this? yes yes i know you hate this question but it is such a wonderful one i feel the need to beat your misdirection and self inflated opinon to death with it

Our eyes take in light, which is then converted into electrical patterns. Those patterns travel to the back of the brain where they are converted again into the images/reality we see. Who is the viewer? I was once atheist, until I realized it was completely arrogant to make such assumptions based on a very limited perspective

glad to see you lost your arrogance -_- when you found an imaginary friend (sarcastic ad hominim)

which arrogance is this?
theres no proof of god, any god, given at any of the time man has worshipped gods, so there almost certainly isnt one, and until you show me proof im not gonna take the word of a none provable bieng .. thats not arrogance thats logical common sense rational feel free to add more terms

should i also pay attention to other unprovable biengs such as fairies imps pixies sprites genies unicorns santa the poddington peas and the teapot orbitting jupiter?

the arrogance comes from saying he is realy because i know he is .... which is what religeon does

As for the 2nd, as I have been trying to point out to you - The reason religion has been a poor attempt at showing the truth is because all the focus is put on the idol/messenger rather than the understandings that are trying to be shown.

well gee wizz guess we should all be glad your here then preachiung to us the global truth of the none idol while using your regional varient of the idolitry hand book to do it

do you also praise god using the satanic bible?

Directly after the bible was compiled into what it is today, it lead to the dark ages. And these people have the historic high ground?

no no it didnt the dark ages is somthing very very different i cant even be bothered to correct you anymore its getting that tedious the dark ages also had little to do with religeon(well it played a part but is not the casue for the dark ages)

The common people weren't even allowed to own a bible.

actually they couldnt afford one or read to um.. read it they could own one if the wanted and could afford and hopefully read, and before the bible was formalised there were hundreds of gospels and passages that were written down that anyone could and did own (as they could read and write thier own its part of judasim to be able to) so this is just another false point in a long line of them

What nonsense.

i agree do you really beleive this stuff?

sorry i ignored the long a winding sermon dispite the masses of false info and poor conclusions

it all boils down to a simple falacy

jesus said he knew better then the scribes, you say you know better then the priests so there fore you are a kind of jesus bringing us the truth of jesus words even though we already have them (< strawman )

cue idol worship pointlessness and affirmiation 'i am right becasue the bible is right and it say' (join the 2 ends repeat for all eternity)

yes yes you used plenty of logic circular logic

1. a=true
2.if a=true
goto 1





[edit on 12/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by noobfun
yes i whole heartedly agree you are not a typical christian as you are not a christian

muslims beleive in jesus too but they are not christians as they dont hold the tenats of christianity to be true, christians and muslims beleive in the abrahamic god but are not jews becasue they dont hold the jewish tenats to be correct

you beleive in jesus but do not hold the fundamental tennets of christainity to be true so there fore you are not a christian... theres a whole host of things you can beleive once you get in this group but your not even making it past security

I doesn't bother me if you don't think I'm a christian. Christians think Jesus died on the cross for their sins and that you just need to believe in him to be "saved". Which I think is stupid, because God could have just forgiven people without sacrificing his son. However, I do believe that Jesus died on the cross for a purpose, and that was to show people that it was better to die than to become the evil yourself, and that is the path. Jesus even says those who believe in him will follow the path.

I've shown you multiple times where it says these things, but it doesn't matter to you. The only thing you will accept is the mainstream version of things. Just so you know, the only reason I have even kept posting in this thread was due to the U2U's I have gotten from people thanking me for bringing understanding to things.

Even the people you would call Christians have posted and said you didn't make any sense at all. And you still don't stop with this nonsense.

as for out of context? i quote the verse you say your miss quoting it your not showing more of the text, i quote more of the text and it still shows the same you then call out of context and add extrenious content and meaning

the bible has its own context, jesus goes to temple heals a man, jesus leave people follow he talks to the people, some of the pharosei also followed one asks him a question, he answers question someone interupts jesus to alert him to the presence of mother and brother, he denies them saying that only his true followers shall be coinsidered family(and thereby saved)

that is the shortended version in context

this differs to what your trying to impose on it and then tell people is the truth of the bible

It was already shown that you did it. I'm happy with the exposing I did of your out of context quotes, where you even tried to call foul because I included 2 verses between those you quoted. Say what you want here, I don't care. Anyone who has read this thread knows what you've done.

And I think I'm pretty much going to stop here. Getting rather tired of the same old back and forth. Constantly you are attacking me personally and you simply can't debunk anything I've actually said.

I've only been posting with you due to the people who have been watching and enjoying it. But as the conversation has turned from you quoting things out of context that I could bring understanding to, to just complete attacks on me personally - I think I have better things to do. Or as the bible says, time to dust my feet off of you.


[edit on 12-11-2008 by badmedia]