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The moronic tyranny of the "there´s no proof" crowd

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posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:19 PM
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Conducting an act of conspiracy, cover-up. a hidden-agenda or an act of ill-intent implies removing proof and evidence of it entirely.

A criminal who murders someone and wants to go undetected, will do his best to get rid of any evidence for the act.

A control-freak who monitors his employees will do his best to keep this hidden from them.

A government official who sees a leak of knowledge to the public as hazardous, will do everything in his power to conceal and never reveal.

And so, in case of cover-ups, we are left with very scant evidence...if any.
We have to do real detective work...speculate...extrapolate...connect dots... dismiss preconceptions...consider every angle...consider and re-consider...collect and discard information...

The work of the conspiracy-researcher is inhibited by what I´d here like to call The moronic tyranny of the "there´s no proof" crowd. This tyranny prevails in society, and on a smaller scale on this website.

Someone will engage in speculative conspiracy theory, and someone will come in and say

"There´s no evidence. None whatsoever"
or

"There´s no proof"

and even

"There´s no point in making a thread about this, because there´s no proof"

and

"You´re crazy because there´s no proof for this"

This type of pointless comment can be seen here by the minute. While you are reading these words, some moron somewhere is telling a conspiracy-theorist: "There´s no proof of this".





How have hoards of people having been brainwashed into the idea that we should only talk about whats already known?

In predominantly focussing on whats already known we can never hope to find out that which is unknown.

Of course there´s a difference in the quality of various pieces of speculation. But the moronic tyrant who walks around calling himself a "skeptic" or "rational" will make no difference and simply go from place to place and thread to thread spouting nothing other than "There´s no evidence".

He will even do so when there is evidence, not grasping the difference between evidence (indicators of something) and proof (hard facts).

Most people here are smart enough to know there´s not much evidence for conspiracy-speculation. And most are smart enough to know that evidence is not forthcoming because its either a) non-existent or b) covered-up.

So the mantra "there´s no proof" becomes somewhat pointless on a Forum like this.

Next time someone visits your thread with nothing other than the comment "Where´s the evidence?", why not give him this metaphor:

The murderer just threw the body into the river. He turns around and grins: "There´s no evidence"


Disclaimer: This is only my personal opinion


[edit on 31-10-2008 by Skyfloating]




posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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i find myself explaining your argument weekly here on ATS to some member... never fails.

here's some related posts from today, regarding HAARP and weather manipulation, and evidence...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

much of the conversation in that thread is a prime example of "there's no proof"... and that's just one thread...



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Spot on thread...




This tyranny prevails in society, and on a smaller scale on this website.


I can wait on society, as it takes THEM a little longer to catch on; but as for this community - well, I like the skeptics, just not the one's who seem to NOT want to see any undeniable proof...




So the mantra "there´s no proof" becomes somewhat pointless on a Forum like this.


I think it can be motivational for those who do believe...some people will not stop until they find proof on a hi-res image or take a video of the real thing, all because they are told otherwise...these are the foot soldiers and if being told there is NOTHING get's their juices going, so be it....!




posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:39 PM
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If people accept the truth of your observation long held and fiercely guarded belief systems may be put in jeopardy.

Some of these belief systems are considered to be counter-culture and the requirement of proof lets them feel safe. Its a security blanket.


+2 more 
posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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I agree with you, no one should ask for proof or be skeptical at all and we should all blindly accept things and not think critically.

The moon is made out of blue cheese and no one can disagree with me so i just think everything is so much better without thought or testing or truth.

No one should ever ask for proof or point out there is no proof.

That'd be silly.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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Well, i would agree with such approach if a person presenting the theory really did investigate, connected the dots, found body in the river or whatever. This is proof, by the way.
But when "dots" are person's view/opinion on the subject - by openly posting it he should expect to be questioned about it. Like "proof?".
There were, are and will be conspiracies. On all levels. But to start randomly throwing ideas in all directions does not help. Actually it creates noise that does drown all the serious or even semi-serious investigations. Look at all the different 9/11 conspiracy versions that contradict each other. It creates so much noise that the official version only gains in credibility.
Of course i can understand the idea that combination of tens of thousands of no-proof-needed conspiracy theorists and tens of thousands keyboards might generate something that will be similar to real conspiracy, but it is hardly the best way. However i have no proof of that.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by whiskeyswiller
I agree with you, no one should ask for proof or be skeptical at all and we should all blindly accept things and not think critically.

The moon is made out of blue cheese and no one can disagree with me so i just think everything is so much better without thought or testing or truth.

No one should ever ask for proof or point out there is no proof.

That'd be silly.


Now you're just being ridiculous. There still exist other ways to arrive at sensible conclusions outside the existence of Proof.

Logic is a good tool. It unreasonable to think the moon is made of Blue cheese. We've been to the Moon and all that was brought back were rocks. We've also went to Mars, more rocks. Earth, lots of rocks.

So, you assertion is quite clearly most likely not true. Which can be deduced in the absence of hard evidence or proof.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 05:02 PM
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I tend to fall in on the side of the skeptics.

This is not such a bad thing. If you don't have skeptics nothing gets challenged. Challenge is good because it helps to separate the wheat from the chafe when you are theorizing about a possible conspiracy theory.

Now, with that said, it's not enough to just say "There is no proof" You need a better argument to discount an idea. Something along the lines that "If this event occurred as statedthen this type of result would have happened. or this type of evidence would have been left behind.

So, I think that the skeptics need to be encouraged to document their skepticism so that CTs can refine their ideas.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by bruxfain
If people accept the truth of your observation long held and fiercely guarded belief systems may be put in jeopardy.

Some of these belief systems are considered to be counter-culture and the requirement of proof lets them feel safe. Its a security blanket.



we hear your types of argument a lot. skeptics are scared, they don't want to believe, they need a security blanket etc, etc ...

where on earth do you draw such incredible conclusions from? tell me exactly how me (or other skeptics) not thinking pictures or videos of a few dots in the sky, for example, is a big deal, to us being afraid for whatever reason? you speak of logic so where is your logic in this type of reasoning?

i know myself and have heard other skeptics express similar sentiments that - i'd be the first to start cheering and throw out the welcome mat should "real" aliens pop in for coffee. so where are you getting this 'fear' thing from dude?



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 05:08 PM
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What the "give me proof" trolls don't realise most of the time is that a lot of people are just, generously I may add, putting up opinions for consideration. This is, after all, a discussion forum, not a court of law or a science lab. Sorry for those that see yourselves as scientists or judges. But this is not that venue.

Given that fundamental diference, may I suggest that the burden of proof here, on these forums, falls not on the person making the statement, although I would advise they provide evidence and/or cogent arguments, but said burden should be on the reader, should he consider the statement probable or real. It is up to him, in whichever way he can, to prove it to himself. For his own good:

I have said several times on ATS, it's easy to ignore and discard ideas on the internet, however, once you've done the legwork yourself, it is much harder to ignore reality or confabulate about it. You are forced to take your own personal experiences into account with whichever opinion or belief system you have or espouse. And that, imo, is very positive and would help the truth surface much easier at the group mind level.

So don't ask for proof. Look for it. Chances are the person making the statement has done so already... or is hiding the proof of the statement's opposite



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by ll__raine__ll

Originally posted by bruxfain
If people accept the truth of your observation long held and fiercely guarded belief systems may be put in jeopardy.

Some of these belief systems are considered to be counter-culture and the requirement of proof lets them feel safe. Its a security blanket.



we hear your types of argument a lot. skeptics are scared, they don't want to believe, they need a security blanket etc, etc ...

where on earth do you draw such incredible conclusions from? tell me exactly how me (or other skeptics) not thinking pictures or videos of a few dots in the sky, for example, is a big deal, to us being afraid for whatever reason? you speak of logic so where is your logic in this type of reasoning?

i know myself and have heard other skeptics express similar sentiments that - i'd be the first to start cheering and throw out the welcome mat should "real" aliens pop in for coffee. so where are you getting this 'fear' thing from dude?


I was refering to belief systems, not UFO's. Nevertheless, surely there's got to be some limit to the usefulness of skepticism. If not, won't you end up believing in nothing at all, with no ability to determine truth from lies or unable make a decision.

At some point you have to expect that 'evidence' can be intentionally destroyed or hidden. Worse yet evidence can be fabricated. Logic is just a technique to arrive at conclusions in the absence of hard evidence.

I was just agreeing with the basic premise of the thread, I didn't mean to point fingers at specific individuals. Please, feel free to carry on with your skepticism.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 05:41 PM
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adrenchrome: Precisely. They sound like squawking parrots and they fly from thread to thread actually thinking they are making a contribution.

I made this thread so that I´d have something to link to for the next one.

chapter29: Good critical thinking and real skepticism is indeed motivational...forcing us to sharpen our argument.

whiskeyswiller: Im referring to the field of conspiracy-speculation, not to discussion in general. Are you implying Im too stupid to comprehend the importance of proof?

ZeroKnowledge: Imo, Sowing confusion is the diversion tactic used after the "there´s no proof" tactic no longer works...as is the case with 9/11.

bruxfain: I agree its a security-blanket...and its also a sign that the poster in question lacks creativity. We see plenty of people post nothing other than that mantra.

Wildbob: If you think this is a simplicistic "bash the skeptics" thread, look again. There´s more to whats being said.

Zepharian: Yes, I´ve heard and read your pleas. Hoping others will hear them too.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 05:46 PM
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Sorry, but as a skeptic I have no inclination to provide proof this "it isn't".

You have the burden of proving IT IS !

If I wanted to believe without proof then I'd be a clergyman.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by venividivici
Sorry, but as a skeptic I have no inclination to provide proof this "it isn't".

You have the burden of proving IT IS !

If I wanted to believe without proof then I'd be a clergyman.


I dont have any burden whatsoever. I have the joy of engaging in speculation with my fellow conspiracy-researchers without being interrupted every 5 seconds by someone requesting proof.

Dont squash the flowers before they´ve even grown.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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Furthermore, there are many things people share that never can be proved. And its really pointless to keep repeating the same thing belligerently and then resort to personal attacks on the posters, questioning their sanity. Testimony is an example of evidence, though it doesn't equate proof. For nearly everything here, hard proof will not be forthcoming without a large change in the management of the world and disclosure. Offering alternative suggestions is one thing, but attempting to derail threads by bullying the posters is uncalled for.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by bruxfain There still exist other ways to arrive at sensible conclusions outside the existence of Proof.

Logic is a good tool.


Logic said that the sun revolved around the earth. Logic said that you would fall off the ends of the world. Logic says that the moon and the sun are the same size. Logic says we are solid.

A logical deduction is only the same as science when all the facts are in, and it can be reproduced.

If you don't build upon proof, you are building upon sand. By all means, go to the edges, investigate, run it up the flagpole and see who salutes. Try and repeat, try and repeat...

But don't call opinions and wishes and oughta'-be's facts. It ain't the same.

Above all...don't pee in my face and tell me it's rainin' out.

Self edit to remind folks that every discovery and 'eureka!' moment was brought about be folks that asked 'what if?, and went to the edges of the knowledge base to see what they could see. It all begins in speculation and imagination. But repeatable, provable, observable behaviour is what counts at the end of the day. Lotta skeptics could be better mannered, though.


[edit on 31-10-2008 by JohnnyCanuck]



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 06:08 PM
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And may I add mystiq, that for a lot of the subjects here, external proof is very hard or near impossible to obtain, yet personal experimentation will be able to overcome this and give enough insight so as to change the worldview of the skeptic and broaden his horizons.

Specifically, telepathic ufo contact experiences, meditation, transcendence, spiritism and OBE's. External proof for any of these is thin on the ground, but going there yourself will make you an actual experiencer, which is really proof for self.

So I repeat, don't ask for proof, go get it yourself folks. There are a few areas where asking for proof is more understandable, especially when political and economical alegations are thrown or regarding hot topics like 911 which have a very materialistic makeup. But even here, opinions can be enlightening.

And, off on a tangent, we as human beings need to function with flexible belief systems, as reality is so complex and fluid. Everytime I see someone yelling for proof I wonder what that individual actually holds as real, if anything. How can they even function in the flux that is life? How can they even think?!



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 06:09 PM
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reply to post by Zepherian
 



What the "give me proof" trolls don't realise most of the time is that a lot of people are just, generously I may add, putting up opinions for consideration. This is, after all, a discussion forum, not a court of law or a science lab. Sorry for those that see yourselves as scientists or judges. But this is not that venue.
Thank you for that. I think this nails the particular part of the problem that bothers me the most. (besides the plain ol meanness of them) With the lack of proof, one must search oftentimes alone for tidbits. Ideas are generated and people want to DISCUSS them. If you can find others who are also curious and want to search with you, a good thread is born. I wonder how many times a person with a tidbit won't post because of the skeptical bullies who haunt certain threads. I know I have failed to speak my mind because of them, but not because I think they are right, but because I don't feel like arguing or being verbally abused that day. The creativity of ideas, the new frontier, the secrets, are all fun to explore. I don't need proof to enjoy reading those ideas. I have never had the pleasure of a UFO siting, but I like to read the threads of people who say they have. To contemplate "what ifs" is enjoyable for me. I also enjoy and search out facts when I feel I need those too. Every idea doesn't need to be backed up by facts and proof in order for me to contemplate them. (Now I must get my daughter dressed like a fairy for Halloween, even though there is no proof they exist) Happy Hallows ATS!!



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 06:15 PM
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It is a fine line we walk, as seekers of truth.
I understand your frustration but in the business of truth seeking it is like walking a tightrope, if you are honestly seeking TRUTH as opposed to seeking evidence that backs up your already firmly rooted, deeply held, stubborn "beliefs".

The difference between "us" and "them" should be what we do when we ARE confronted with compelling "evidence". Will we dismiss it however compelling it is because it challenges our world view and insults our "intelligence" or will we allow room for the evidence in our tiny brains for contemplation at a later time?

I have room in my head for wild speculation but will not let the "wild speculation file" in my head mix with the "compelling evidence file"
which sits right next to it.

There should be room for both wild speculation and compelling evidence on ats, but, we should be clear about which is which and call it such.

As far as proof, ha!!
You cannot even prove that YOU exist much less that there is an advaced alien race trying to take over our planet or anything else we so freely entertain here on ATS so don't worry. I gave up on the word "PROOF" a long time ago.

[edit on 31-10-2008 by cbass]



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 06:47 PM
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SkyFloating Thank you!
S+F

Though I have a bit of a scientific slant myself, from studying when younger, and have fallen into this trap sometimes myself where I feel the evidence if overwhelming.

However I have noticed this has become more of an issue on ATS and thread after thread seems to being derailed and killed without any intelligent discussion of the opposing views.

What has really got my goat recently for want of a better description is the trolling done by some Skeptics on threads, when they have not even evaluated or looked at the OP or sources information first.

Just blatantly politician like, telling their belief long enough and loud enough to ridicule the information forwarded originally with no "Proof" of their own, just their words and beliefs on it, without considering the opposing view or information.

Recently on a few threads and 2 today I have come across this situation and I feel it really takes away from any chance of people coming to a real understanding of the topic.

Infact I just posted on a thread today:New Planet X Video

a position something similar to your OP,

Also just now seconds before finding this thread I posted an opposition to that sort of Skeptical View: Shambala Inner Earth City Protected by Tibetan Monks


And a week or so ago also How To Create PSI Balls

Trying to convey that it is impossible for us really, in reality to "prove" anything except from our own subjective experience of this world, and the limitations of our awareness within this Body.

I am finding more and more the people who SHOUT THAT THERE IS NO PROOF to this, actually have no sources or solid arguments to support their stance, no supporting evidence, or explanation to their view to contrast against the OP and other posters than such a statement.

Even when such Proof is called for if it is then given to the Skeptic often they will ignore it and move on, or again just use layer upon layer of conventional understanding of an issue, without actually looking at the new evidence or proof proposed by the Op or other posters.

The lack of evidence is not proof of the lack of existence of evidence eh?


The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance" [1]) or argument by lack of imagination, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false or is false only because it has not been proven true.


The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed not to be true, or alternatively that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead.

Wiki On It

I feel this well known form of Greek debating and modern politics is becoming the norm unfortunately on ATS.

As anyone who has ever witnessed a good barrister, or in the US attorney in court, ridicule factual events by mocking and wagging their finger at the proposer it can be very effective, though does not get to the truth in any way.

It is an ancient and formidable weapon in the debaters and especially Skeptics arsenal, and can be seen used daily in social interactions from our formative years where we all adhere to the "norm" no matter how bizarre strange or untrue due to the mockery of the group, and we only have to switch on Fox or Sky or watch Palin in front of one of her crowds to see it in action.

ATS is above not only secret, but that type of interaction.

As one of the things that drew me to ATS was the motto "Deny Ignorance" these sorts of tactics can sometimes only create more layers of ignorance upon already non accepted truths.

Of course sometimes they are right, but if one truth is supressed we are encouraging Ignorance.

Thank you so much for this thread


Kind Regards,

Elf

Edit for link & spelling

[edit on 31-10-2008 by MischeviousElf]





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