Often times there is plenty of proof for certain conspiracy theories, what people really lack is an authority figure telling them it is true. Not many people do self-motivated research, they only accept what's common among the herd.

Originally posted by whiskeyswiller
I agree with you, no one should ask for proof or be skeptical at all and we should all blindly accept things and not think critically.

The moon is made out of blue cheese and no one can disagree with me so i just think everything is so much better without thought or testing or truth.

No one should ever ask for proof or point out there is no proof.

That'd be silly.

This is absurd. Of course you are free to engage in fierce dialogue, willingly subject yourself to the arbitration of science and fraud, and personally examine and scrutinize the information or basic notion provided (by any particular forum poster)... but to predicate that "such a notion is lacking in any substantial proof makes the entire thread invalid" becomes simply a petty accusation, which especially to a community such as this is a major detriment to our cause.

Originally posted by Viral
Not many people do self-motivated research, they only accept what's common among the herd.

Originally posted by Ign0rant
division is brought about by idiots who blindly believe in themselves and the reality the live in.

The common thread here seems to be that people will seek out what they want to believe. Those who's beliefs are build on the foundation of "there's no proof" will never find proof they can't in some way discredit, without opening themselves to change.

I do think we all have a tenancies to do such, since we can't each analyze everything, the scope of human experience is just too large. But this is not completely natural human behaviour. There's room in reasonable theory for more nefarious actions and agendas; we see their works.

It comes down to creating systems of belief that have contradiction built-in to them. By manipulating the dichotomies how people express their beliefs -- be it UFOs, politics, or 9/11 truth -- control of context is established.

This is no more a tyranny than our inability to perceive allows it to be. Mankind has conquered many such falsities and challenges in the past, and this is no different. For every inevitable evolutionary pressure, there is a chaotic counter-pressure of intermediate regulatory forces; nature in action and motion.

The truth of a thousand years is greater than the ignorance and confusion of a day, any day.

Tough call Sky, and I hear and understand your point

and agree all possibilities need to be discussed and entertained.

At the same time

allowing that always and never at least demanding evidence leads to derailments of the quest for truth

My biggest personal beef would be with the "summerian annunaki lovers" and "federation of light" or other "cults of personality that have followings"
You can have few conversations regarding Aliens or abductions that try and get to the point of what is going on (which could be a really serious situation)

Without these "religions" which imho are invented and offer hardly any evidence that can be verified in any way

A person can come on, be talking about a ufo experience, an abduction which thousands of people claim to suffer, and by page 2, the good aliens are from reticule 9, and they have a philosophy of...blah, blah

and it can be so hard... because it's not offered as... an address of anything, it's a philosophy and religion that, assumes, star gates and travel and g-ds and interstellar wars and this whole... dang urrrgrgghhhh

History... with no evidence mostly, aside from some stuff from people I honestly think are simply profiting on the alien craze...and ends up boiling down in some of these "Complete Guides to the Galaxy" That I get offered in...the middle of NOT talking about that subject...

Honestly I think much in here is flat out disinfo agents and profiteers trying to steer belief to their products and merchandise and websites or the followers in a cult of personality that, derail, any topic that doesn't include their... "Guide to the Galaxy"

and it ruins genuine discussion

So I ask...

How can a Forum... cope with that and retain keeping a thread actually on course when you wish to discuss something

and do so without resorting to

hey "show me some proof other than your mom talks to rectulians in her Booze Coma every night pal"

and I think the forum is Packed with agenda driven folks and those that follow a handful of websites and theories.. looking to:

KEYWORD

Their ideas... Repeatedly and obnoxiously

By representatives of some... purpose driven philosophy that, your old enough to know was invented by PERSON X who sells books and is probably fulla bulla

So in simplicity, how do you seek TRUTH, here or in RL

When dogma and belief systems even when they truly make no sense would shut your voice down, every time (not supposing I am right about...anything) Just saying, I'm looking and have ideas that, do not derive from, some other guys work

and

I'm not in here key wording the terms of my websites to drive visitors either

It's a Life thing... could be said about religion, but people are more polite about that which is almost frightening in and of itself

As Example

I know a guy in RL, who loves Jesus...

I discuss Bowling,

and he responds Bowling isn't important because Jesus...

and he does it over and over again, Bowling is proof of Jesus, Bowling distracts from Jesus, Bowling IS Jesus, Jesus is In Bowling...

Until eventually you just want to scream SHUT UP... Show Me proof Jesus is in my G-d damned Bowling ball!!!!!

and then lol...

the response

You don't believe in Jesus .... (shocked expression)

and

it's all derailed... your looking like a troll and ... also have insulted Jesus believers around you some how

and all you wanted to do

was talk about BOWLING

Do you follow what I'm saying?

And I just want to be clear I agree with what your saying

But the cult of personality in some areas can get very frustration

and the moments do come

when, your in, a Thread about something that has nothing to do with any of the mainstream theories

PUSHED

By Coast to Coast and the 11 Regulars they have in order to SELL GOLD

and out of the Blue one of thme comes and... will not Relent

About

A: the StarGate
B: the Annunaki
C: Planet X
D: the Federation of Light
E: Service to others
F: Insert mainstream Fiction of choice____________

and I am NOT saying there is not truth to found within anything

But the desire to scream "go away get a life not every thread is about your G-d Damned Fictional Federation"

Just kind of boils up a bit

and, the show me The Proof Line

gets handed out

Because...

It feels like, the guys who knock on your door on Sunday morning and explain how you go to HELL if you don't believe what they do...


So not a defense, of anyone... EVER, shutting off or insulting or dicrediting the offer of a Theory

Just saying, sometimes it's merely a defense against... what amounts to a MOB of believers that harass the topic matter as a whole be it, one at a time, or en mass in a thread and on the Internet as a whole

And

Allow me to add, I have the Utmost respect for those who's ideas and books pioneered, talking about these subjects as mainstream

and

I agree, the tendency to use...show proof, gets out of control

I am only trying to say, that in time, some of these theories have become religion and been debunked repeatedly and effectively

and the cult of personality on some subjects, not just my pet peeves...

Can get very tiresome and people should....

Try to post more original content even if it is lousy at first and develop new ideas and offer them or genuine research rather than

the same handful that a few stars in these fields pioneered, mainly on coast to coast and force feed them as Dogma and Fact

Good One Skyfloating. Well Said, and well needed.

It is for the reasons outlines in your OP that I know longer create threads on ATS.

I reply to posts, but there are better forums to invest my thread-making efforts in.... Sadly.

There are too many 'repeaters' on ATS for me to feel comfortable devoting the time and effort towards making a thread - and then defending it from the attackers; which we shouldn't have to do.

There's nothing wrong with wanting proof, but people do become a bit ridiculous about it sometimes. Some skeptics will just say "There's no proof. You're wrong. End of discussion. Move along!" or something similar. It's as if they don't even wish to have a discussion. Of course there's no proof, but it's like an alien hypothesis is blasphemy to some. I don't know what's so bad about considering possibilities, even if some people may think they aren't likely.

"Nothing to see here. Move Along"

That's the one that gets on my nerves the most. They never bother to actually read the thread. Just look at the title and see that it's something they don't like, come in to post that one line and leave thinking they debunked the entire thread.

I'm also annoyed when someone creates a thread, write their topic out, post links, images or videos to back up their claims and someone will always say "Could you tell me where you found this information?". It shows they didn't bother to actually read the topic and that they're trying to purposely irritate the thread creator when they're obviously ignoring what they've posted. They try to play stupid

Skeptics can assist by helping the conspiracy-theorist shore up weaknesses and eliminate disconnects. That is what an open-minded skeptic can offer in the way of real assist, it is the closed-minded, "I won't believe it until it crushes me" skeptic who offers no value to the debate at all.

skeptics and conspiracy theorists.. are a different sort of breed... they will probably never understand each other.. kind of like the difference between believing O.J. was guilty or innocent.. Ill never understand the people who believe he is innocent.. and Ill never understand the thinking of people who believe that the earth is hollow.. or that abductions are happening... or that the new world order is about to take over the world... and reptilians rule everthing.. etc..etc..etc..

This is a very important subject indeed, for Sky!

I am saying this for ages.
This moronic actitude of the "No proofs", can kill a place like ATS, and in a certain point of view, it have killed. IMHO going to a topic and ask for proofs, in a place where we try to debate about the major misterys of the world, is a huge proof of the extremly Low QI, or show a secret destructive agenda (Trolls, agents, etc), of the person asking this!
This week i even have sew in a topic something that schocked me:
In a certain topic, the OP explains something about a UFO video, and he says this one is of major importance because all the subject was analized by some scientists, inclusive from nasa... so he shows the videos, and ask the people to see a certain TV show where all that important information can be seen...so far so good...
Untill a so called "Skeptic" cames, full of he's proud, and talking like he was a SS nazi agent ordering this & that, saying that he dosen't have to see no show at all, because he have not the proper interest to see it, and with no proofs at all to explain to him why he must see it, he will don't do it!!
So trying to summarying, for him, the video was Trash because no proofs of enything was showed, and he refused to see the TV show where the proofs and scientific facts could be seen... In his opinion, the OP was the one that should explain all the facts about the subject, instead to ask for people to see a TV show!! With out this, for him, that topic must be closed by ATS...
I even don't have words to classify this kind of "Skeptic"

This kind of Behaviour will in the end transform ATS in a place where people wil have fear to share what ever from the bizarre and the Secretism, and ATS will be a kind of place where people just will talk and debate about...normal news, like politics, terrorism, religion, etc.
Because all the debateble subjects, that do not have solid proofs to be real, will be just trashed and BS.

At the least for me, The spirit of ATS, the original one, was killed when some one chosed to forbiden reptilian topics in the ET forums...and allowing them to exist only in the skunk works!!
It's this kind of "SS Nazi" policies, that can kill a site, and just give more strengh to trools and "skeptics" that just follow the "no proofs" rule of action in every topic, like flys.
Reptilian subject, is a theory, are a mistery for many, and there are hundreds of books about it. So it never should be censored. It is a "conspiracy" like all the others! If people was tired to see stupid Utube films about shapeshifting, but in the end, showing nothing at all, (and i am included, because i have seen so many that was just trash), other options and rules must be taken, but never exile like the inquisition, all the theme!!
The same goes for other themes that are seeing like pure venom by many, like the hollow hearth theory.
IMO this is totaly against the site moto "Deny ignorance"!!

Sky...i think you also can add to this subject the "Nothing new" way of action!!
Thats another one that almoust all the skeptics use!..."Nothing new, it was debated already by many....so it was debunked, case closed, nothing to see here!"
Well... a subject can be extremly debated by years, (Like Atlantis as a exemple), but as far as i know, untill today, no real proofs of it's existence, geography, etc, exists! So... nothing new, in a new debate about Atlantis?...possible, but that dosen't turn right away the topic a Trash of BS!
(Sorry for my bad English Grammar mates)






[edit on 1/11/08 by Umbra Sideralis]

I was keep reading till page 2 and then i stopped.There are two people saying that they're just here for the fun of it (allthough i believe that there are more generally in ATS) and others being like "relax,it's a conspiracy forum" and a very simple question popped in my head.

Is ATS just a site to share stories about imaginery things,like a novel forum,to just read each other's fiction stories and have fun?

This isn't a sarcastic question nor a trick question.It's a straight and honest question so if someone's willing to answer to it likewise i'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

sky THANKS for the post

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Conducting an act of conspiracy, cover-up. a hidden-agenda or an act of ill-intent implies removing proof and evidence of it entirely.

A criminal who murders someone and wants to go undetected, will do his best to get rid of any evidence for the act.

A control-freak who monitors his employees will do his best to keep this hidden from them.

A government official who sees a leak of knowledge to the public as hazardous, will do everything in his power to conceal and never reveal.

And so, in case of cover-ups, we are left with very scant evidence...if any.
We have to do real detective work...speculate...extrapolate...connect dots... dismiss preconceptions...consider every angle...consider and re-consider...collect and discard information...

The work of the conspiracy-researcher is inhibited by what I´d here like to call The moronic tyranny of the "there´s no proof" crowd. This tyranny prevails in society, and on a smaller scale on this website.

Someone will engage in speculative conspiracy theory, and someone will come in and say

"There´s no evidence. None whatsoever"
or

"There´s no proof"

and even

"There´s no point in making a thread about this, because there´s no proof"

and

"You´re crazy because there´s no proof for this"

This type of pointless comment can be seen here by the minute. While you are reading these words, some moron somewhere is telling a conspiracy-theorist: "There´s no proof of this".





How have hoards of people having been brainwashed into the idea that we should only talk about whats already known?



[edit on 31-10-2008 by Skyfloating]

to answer your last question is to understand the "net/gravity" of any successful psychological warfare. you design these beliefs knowing a "decent" people's tendency's is to want to give other's/ especially those with power over them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to there intentions and character. This is positively reinforced (and works with people's tendency) to want to believe there leaders have there intrests at heart, otherwise they be left with the option of feeling paranoid (negative reinforcement from trying to change mind (unless they can reason and balance happiness w/ uncomfortable truths) which would require a WILL and EFFORT

another "net" of negative reinforcement (when trying to be open minded) is sociological threats and fears of being labeled "crazy".


you put into words what i have been thinking about the "show me proof" or it's gonna be "debunked" willing to put there head in the sand crowd. way back when i used to be ONE of them.


while the "skeptics" may cry fowl what you are really doing is helping people to realize the more they know and the more wisdom they have, the less they realizet they truly "KNOW". I think you also shed light on the way our minds try to simplify things for us to process and choose words (some poorly) that we fit together to be "rules" for our brain when forming opinion's about things. many of us , feel safer believing we know, and these opinions these beliefs formulate create piece of mind for all of us.

I think what we should take away is that the people shouting there's no proof, they just WISH to eliminate the possibility from THEIR mind that there is an alternative possible explanation for something, and saying this is what it takes for them to willingly pretend is it not an option in there mind, and this gives them piece of mind. And then they try to strengthen there belief by convincing and finding other that are like minded. Because

we know that when dealing with cover-ups there is LOTS OF UNCERTAINTY and LOTS of possibility's and not knowing bothers people, especially when some options clash with there view of how the world and it's Leaders intentions may be. *The simplist thing to do, is for them to figure out what they are willing to believe to make/rationalize the option they are not comfortable enough out of the realm of possibility for them. For many it beats the lack of comfort from realizing they don't know. This may sound like a difficult balancing act unless you understand most of us also realize that so long as we believe something strongly enough (talking about opinion's here) it can be our reality and true to us. regardless. It just depends on our BELEIFS INDIVIDUALLY and what we are willing to beleive based on them. And this little convenience will be defended to the death * until we have the desire to find a suitable option



[edit on 1-11-2008 by cpdaman]

Excellent thread! Hope enough members see this before they post on ATS.
It seems people "judge a book by its cover" even before they see the cover sometimes!

Flag and star!

*should bump it onto first page for longer*

My advice to anyone on ATS...
keep an open mind. Take everything with a grain of salt.
Last but not least, be skeptical of skeptics.