The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

reply to post by noobfun


You said..."the people that helped advance science listed were christians

but didnt advance science becasue they were christians

they didnt get thier understanding of science from the bible or the words of jesus"




= = = = =

I don't know bro....????

George Washington Carver [c. 1864-1943]
agricultural chemist, inventor of over 300 products
"Without my Savior, I am nothing."
"I love to think of nature as an unlimited broadcasting station,
through which God speaks to us every hour, if we will only tune in."
"God is going to reveal to us things he never revealed before if we put our hands in his. No books ever go into my laboratory, a thing I am to do and the way of doing it are revealed me."

Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by OldThinker

Another area that I believe Christianity has contributed to..is SCIENCE...

The following is a list for you all to consider....folks who loved Jesus and had a great impact on society...

OT you seem to be using a fasle premise for much of this
...... same with your science premise quoted

the people that helped advance science listed were christians

but didnt advance science becasue they were christians

they didnt get thier understanding of science from the bible or the words of jesus

[edit on 1/11/08 by noobfun]

I don't know bro...con't.....seems like there may be a link here?

Source: www.eadshome.com...

Johannes Kepler [1571-1630]
Astronomy/Laws of Planetary Motion
"I had the intention of becoming a theologian...but now I see how God is, by my endeavors, also glorified in astronomy, for 'the heavens declare the glory of God.'"
"I am a Christian...I believe... only and alone in the service of Jesus Christ...In Him is all refuge, all solace."
"Let my name perish if only the name of God the Father is thereby elevated."
"[God] is the kind Creator who brought forth nature out of nothing."

Blaise Pascal [1623-1662]
Scientist noted for work in physics, hydrostatics, vacuums; inventor of mechanical calculator
"Jesus Christ, I have separated myself from Him:
I have fled from Him, denied Him, crucified Him.
Let me never be separated from Him.
We keep hold of Him only by the ways taught in the Gospel.
Renunciation, total and sweet.
Total submission to Jesus Christ..."
[from a manuscript dated Monday November 23, 1654 and found in his own handwriting in his coat at his death]
"Knowing God without knowing our own wretchedness engenders pride. Knowing our own wretchedness without knowing God engenders despair." [Pascal - Pensees no 527]
*Also famous for "Pascal's Wager"--a powerful defense of the Christian faith

Robert Boyle [1627-1691]
Founder of Modern Chemistry/Gas Dynamics
Governor of Missionary organization for propagating the gospel in New England
Personally financed the translation of the Bible into Irish, Turkish, and Arabic
Author of "The Christian Virtuoso" reflecting on the study of nature for Christians
Author of Christian devotional book, "Occasional Reflections"
His will after his death financed the "Boyle Lectures" which were lectures in defense of Christianity
"From a knowledge of His work, we shall know Him"
"Christ's passion, His death, His resurrection and ascension, and all of those wonderful works which He did during His stay upon earth, in order to confirm mankind in the belief of His being God as well as man."

Sir Isaac Newton [1642-1727]
Mathematician, Physicist
Inventor of calculus
Law of universal gravitation
Newton's three laws of motion:
1) Law of inertia 2) Force=mass*acceleration 3) Principle of action and reaction
Published "Newton's Prophecies of Daniel"
after his study and translation of the Book of Daniel [in the Bible]
"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition."

"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history."

" This thing [a scale model of our solar system] is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you, as an atheist, profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?"

Sir William Herschel [1738-1822]
Astronomist. Discovered Uranus, several nebulae, and binary stars.
First to accurately describe the Milky Way Galaxy
“All human discoveries seem to be made only for the purpose of confirming more and more
the Truths contained in the Sacred Scriptures.”
"The undevout astronomer must be mad."

Samuel Morse [1791-1872]
Inventor of the telegraph [Morse's sketch of the railway telegraph above]
"Education without religion is in danger of substituting wild theories for the simple commonsense rules of Christianity."
First message sent by the electric telegraph:
"What hath God wrought"
[This is found in the Bible; Numbers 23:23]
[The message was sent from the Supreme Court Room in the Capitol to the railway depot at Baltimore; May 24, 1844]
[In one letter, Samuel Morse wrote "What hath GOD wrought" by capitalizing and underlining "GOD" twice!]

Michael Faraday [1791-1867]
Inventor of the electric generator and the transformer
Discovered Benzene--used to make plastics, nylon and dyes
Produced the first test tubes
Described Field Theory
*Hailed by Albert Einstein as the foundation for his own scientific discoveries*
Elder in his church for over 20 years
"Speculations? I have none. I am resting on certainties. 'I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.'"
"A Christian finds his guide in the Word of God, and commits the keeping of his soul into the hands of God. He looks for no assurance beyond what the Word can give him, and if his mind is troubled by the cares and fears which assail him, he can go nowhere but in prayer to the throne of
grace and to Scripture."
"Since peace is alone in the gift of God; and as it is He who gives it, why should we be afraid? His unspeakable gift in His beloved Son is the ground of no doubtful hope." --[1861 letter]
"The Bible, and it alone, with nothing added to it nor taken away from it by man, is the sole and sufficient guide for each individual, at all times and in all circumstances…For faith in the divinity and work of Christ is the gift of God, and the evidence of this faith is obedience to the commandment of Christ."

Matthew Maury [1806-1873]
The "Father" of oceanography
Aided in the laying of the first trans-Atlantic cable
Maury believed Psalm 8:8, which speaks of the "paths of the seas" , and he discovered "oceanic currents"
Maury described atmospheric circulation and showed that it was already described in Ecclesiastes 1:6
Maury showed Job 28:25 to be true with respect to the weight of the winds.

"The Bible is true and science is true, and therefore each, if truly read, but proves the truth of the other."

James Prescott Joule [1818-1889]
Described the First Law of Thermodynamics: The Law of Conservation of Energy
[American Biochemist Isaac Asimov said that the First Law of Thermodynamics is
"one of the most important generalizations in the history of science"]
Kinetic Theory of Gases
"Joule-Thomson" effect--the basis of refrigeration
A unit of energy [work] in physics is now called a "joule"
"It is evident that an acquaintance with natural laws means no less than
an acquaintance with the mind of God therein expressed."
"Order is manifestly maintained in the universe...governed by the sovereign will of God"
"After the knowledge of, and obedience to, the will of God, the next aim must be to know something of His attributes of wisdom, power, and goodness as evidenced by His handiwork."

James Clerk Maxwell [1831-1879]
Statistical Thermodynamics, Field equations of electricity, magnetism, light

" No theory of evolution can be formed to account for the similarity of molecules,
for evolution necessarily implies continuous change."

"Almighty God, Who has created man in Thine own image, and made him a living soul that he might seek after Thee,
and have dominion over Thy creatures, teach us to study the works of Thy hands, that we may subdue the earth to our use, and strengthen the reason for Thy service; so to receive Thy blessed Word, that we may believe on Him Who Thou has sent, to give us the knowledge of salvation and the remission of our sins. All of which we ask in the name of the same Jesus Christ, our Lord." [prayer written by Maxwell and found amongst his notes]

Maxwell was an elder in the church he helped establish near his home.

Louis Pasteur [1822-1895]
Father of Microbiology, developed "pasteurization"
"The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator."
"Science brings men nearer to God."

Jean-Henri Fabre [1823-1915]
Entomology, Biology
Author of 8-volume series "Souvenirs Entomologiques"
detailing the behavior and life history of many species
"Without Him, I understand nothing; without Him, all is darkness…Every period has its manias.
I regard Atheism as a mania. It is the malady of the age.
You could take my skin from me more easily than my faith in God."

Sir Joseph Lister [1827-1912]
Father of antiseptic surgery, first to wire fractures, developed dissolving sutures
"I am a believer in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity"


Lord Kelvin [William Thomson] [1824-1907]
Physicist, Laws of Thermodynamics, Absolute temperature scale, inventor
"With regard to the origin of life, science...positively affirms creative power."
"Overwhelmingly strong proofs of intelligent and benevolent design lie around us...
the atheistic idea is so non-sensical that I cannot put it into words."

George Washington Carver [c. 1864-1943]
agricultural chemist, inventor of over 300 products
"Without my Savior, I am nothing."
"I love to think of nature as an unlimited broadcasting station,
through which God speaks to us every hour, if we will only tune in."
"God is going to reveal to us things he never revealed before if we put our hands in his. No books ever go into my laboratory, a thing I am to do and the way of doing it are revealed me."


Wernher Von Braun [1912-1977]; first Director of NASA, pioneer of space exploration
"Scientific concepts exist only in the minds of men.
Behind these concepts lies the reality which is being revealed to us, but only by the grace of God."

Originally posted by moonrat
If JC was never born, there would undoubtably be another headcase that would just 'slide' into the peoples need for a divine influence in the form of a human.

Charlatans, quacks , hoaxers and the peddelers of snake oil will always prey on vunerable people who can't or are too scared to think for themselves. They always have and they always will.

Religion is brainwashing. That's it. That is all it is. The sooner you realise this FACT the sooner you will be able to live your life in a fullfilling way.

Moonrat, I agree with the superintendence of your post, but not it's unadorned explanation...

please continue...

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.....etc

hmmm?

wonder why 'LAW' is capitalized?

hmmm?

wonder what TRUTHS are self-evident?

hmmm? 'created', huh?

FREAKIN' STONE COLD ATHESISTS-THAT WHOLE LOT OF UM'!!!

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Another capitalized word? Think its a conspriracy?

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof......

= = = =

Man, these guys were brilliant!!! So balanced, huh>>>?

OT wonders where all that wisdom came from?

Could it be James 3:17

Nah...what's it say?

However, the wisdom that comes from above is first of all pure, then peace-loving, gentle, willing to yield, full of compassion and good deeds, and without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy


edit cut and paste


[edit on 1-11-2008 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker


No, deists are by definition, the least devout of the theist 'kinds', so it's an oxymoron to say "devout deist", they are the extremes of the spectrum.


And I couldn't disagree with Barton more. History is choca with examples of church and state being mixed. It's always a bad thing eventually. Note my signature.

The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment.

[Wiki

I don't know why the religious would want to jimmy with sate matters in a religious context anyway. Not only do they have nothing to do with each other, it's just going to upset people who simply don't agree.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the PTB took "one nation under god" out of the pledge and "in god we trust" of money and revert to the way it was supposed to be. Change "In God we trust" to "Redeemable in Gold"!!!

good wolf,

what makes you think that you are not, at this very moment, believing what the papacy wants you to believe? you realize they are the ones that instigated the enlightenment and it was their professors and their clergymen who decided all ancient history was a farce? (originally, this was done under the guise that only the papal version of history was correct, but eventually lead to eliminating ALL OF ANCIENT HISTORY AS CREDIBLE. i want you to think about that. ) and they did this without the benefit of archaeology! it hadn't even been created as a science yet! when it was discovered their snow job of ancient history was incorrect, it was too late to fix it! every history book, book of philosophy and science text now reflects the outcome of that position, even though it was in serious error from the outset.

reply to post by undo


I'm sure your going to offer a side of evidence with that helping of conjecture.

reply to post by Good Wolf


surely. ever heard of higher german criticism? it started the enlightenment.
a roman catholic scholar by the name of friedrich wolf (ha!) concluded that the ancient greeks couldn't write, so therefore the ancient grecian histories were bunk. he did this as an act of higher criticism, whose task it was to prove the papal authority and it's chosen biblical texts as the ultimate historical record. turned out he was wrong, but it took 40 years before it was discovered and by then, all of ancient history had been tossed out as too incredible to believe. since the ancient texts and the scholars who had previously written about their content were no longer supported by other ancient texts, the snowball of destruction created wiped the writings of our ancestors from the historical record, labelled as obvious fabrications. this was the beginning of the enlightenment period. didn't effect the papacy at all. they are still the most powerful organization on the planet, bar none.

reply to post by OldThinker



awww the quote games a dangerous game to play sometimes it bites you on the ass

This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. The great masses of a nation are not composed of philosophers. For the masses of the people, especially faith is absolutely the only basis of a moral outlook on life.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.

- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

that first quote looks pretty similar to some of yours

but then we see him killing jews for god, and its divine will that placed him so he could kill them



when you wake up on a morning and decide if you want toast or cereal, lets say you chose toast .. did you chose it becasue you felt like toast or becasue your a christian?

you walk out and you have a flat so you change it, did you do that becasue a flat could lead to more damage adn be even dangerous or becasue your a christian?

when you chose the shirt your wearing did you chose it becasue your a christian?(if your shirt says i love god on the front this question wont work and you need help shopping lol)

people fix things becasue they need fixing, they create new things to solve a problem

sceince is just a big problem solving exercise

you can be a scientist and a christian but you cant be a scientist mearly becasue your a christian

if they wernt christians they would have more then likley done what they originally did, they just would have made other quotes not involving god



ghandi wanted equality for all people and he wasnt white

martin luther king wanted equality for all man and he wasnt white

....must be a link ... see your linking process is flawed unless you can find a bunch of none christian scientist/inventors saying its all thanks to the christian god

other wise its just people making statements about thier beliefs and nothing to do with the things they have achieved

hitler didn't just kill jews for god, he killed christians for god, too, and a certain type of pagan for god (gypsies, cause he couldn't stand the idea of a well ordered society in which people managed to survive without work that upheld the society).

in short, hitler was not just anti-jewish. he was also anti-christian and anti-gypsy and anti-drifter and anti-handicapped and ...well he was an elitist, really. (he pretty much left catholic christians alone though, in agreement with the papacy). at least, that's what i've read and seen in various photographs.

reply to post by undo



if only it were that simple

the nazi party was an anti communistic as it was anti semstic

and spent a great deal off effort getting rid of communistis in germany before it started moving on the jews

he considered anyone with out a country of thier own a burden on society so jews and romany gypsies got treated equally as badly

but in equal numbers to the jews that died in camps were russians and poles, the russians were impure as they had bastardised them selves with thier asian country members in his eyes and were a bunch of communists which gave them a double whammy religeon was ignored where they were concerned. except the cossaks they were considered pure blood and not suprisingly fought with the nazi's

same with poles (not sure how they got to be impure) they were treated with equal varaciety as the average russian, most of these poles were catholic and orthadox christian



hitler killed christians is a lie, its put about by people trying to distance thier faith from the nazi attrocities or to vilify catholics and the vaticans support with the Concordat

Mass meeting of the German Christian Movement
13 Nov.1933
A radical wing of German Lutheranism and the main Protestant branch supporting Nazi ideology, the German Christian Movement reconciled Christian doctrine with German nationalism and antisemitism.

Deutsche Christen (German Christians)

SA storm troopers with placards of the "German Christians," Berlin, July 1933.

On July 14, 1933, Hitler's government approves a new charter for the Protestant church. With massive intervention by the NSDAP, the church elections scheduled only a short time later result in a resounding victory for the "German Christians." Hitler himself appeals to all Protestant Christians in a radio speech on the eve of the election to vote for the "German Christians." With its slogan "church must remain church,"

Deutsche Christen (German Christians)

The Deutsche Christen (DC) became the voice of Nazi ideology within the Evangelical Church (the Religious Right of their day) and approved by Hitler. They proposed a church "Aryan paragraph" to prevent "non-Aryans" from becoming ministers or religious teachers. Most church leaders solidly supported the "Judenmission." Only a very few number of Christians opposed Nazism such as the "Confessing Christians" (a Church movement not recognized by the Protestant orthodoxy) headed by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. The support of Nazism by the majority of German Christians and German Christian leaders shows the danger of mixing religion with government.

bold/underline is mine

nobeliefs.com...



[edit on 1/11/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 1/11/08 by noobfun]

oh i believe there were christian nazis in all branches of christianity (afterall, germany was a christian country and luther wasn't especially fond of jewish people either (but he doesn't represent all of protestanism and he certainly didn't have the clout and historical power of the papacy -- you do realize, the have the accumulated wealth of every country they conquered in the name of god?). the catholics were given the most leeway and if you don't think so, just look it up.

fascists and communists are two sides of the same coin. around here it's called divide and conquer or order out of chaos. i think they use it, publically, to garner support to go to war in which they kill off each others least desirables, thusly you see only some are conscripted for war, only some are sent to the front lines. you can't seriously look at history for very long without noticiing little nuances like that.

reply to post by undo
i dont need to look it up

leeway ... no not really

almost 100% of all christian branches inside germany gave 100% support towards the nazi ideal

a bigger fuss was made of catholic events but that was his personal christian belief of choice in the same way Bush might attend an big evangelical event but not attend a large event of some other christian denomination

but as for the front line, no differance was made between branches of christianity they were all christian soldiers killing the ungodly blight of jews and cleasning the world from the lesser races

no christians were persecuted for bieng christian, if there was grounds on race for persicution faith didnt make a single differance

if you were a lesser race religeon didnt matter you were a lesser race so off you went to a place of death

the papalcy has it power and wealth because of its own actions nothing to do with the nazi's

they did it by gathering power and wealth from its inseption the same as evangelic(and practically every other branch of christianity) churches do today, the papalcy did it old school bible in one hand sword in the other, its just the more modern branches have replaced the sword with the microphone (as to has the papalcy now)

reply to post by noobfun

almost 100% of all christian branches inside germany gave 100% support towards the nazi ideal

that's because any church that didn't was wiped as jew lovers (probably called them jews and stuck them in the same concentration camps). believe me, there are alot of christians who are the exact opposite of hitler when it comes to the subject of jewish people. many are so supportive of them, that they will defend israel and its actions to the death if necessary. that's some serious support.

and i know what i'm talking about as far as support of jews and israel is concerned. apostle paul said, (paraphrasing) "just because god appears to be angry with his natural born people, don't assume that means you should do the same nor revel in their current degraded position. if he was willing to cut off the jews, how much sooner will he cut you off, being gentiles and not natural born members of israel!" and he wasn't kidding, either.

reply to post by undo

the support for jews and israel has come almost 100% exclusivley after the holocaust

most of europe and america had heard more then just rumours of how jews were bieng treated in germany and we ignored it or just wrote it off, no action was taken until germany made military moves to conquer europe and we all suddenly faced a military threat

im not saying all christians were nazi's there was always exceptions to the rule some priests of all branches of christianity helped jews escape

but most christian institutions accepted and promoted nazi'ism not under fear but by choice to say otherwise is simple appologetic hand wringing to distance them selves from the horrors that happened

you can quote paul all you like, christianity almost from its inseption has held anti-semetic views which have been played out time and time again throughout european history with forced conversion the massacer at worm and a hundred other instances of death and persecution

Originally posted by noobfun


no christians were persecuted for bieng christian, if there was grounds on race for persicution faith didnt make a single differance

if you were a lesser race religeon didnt matter you were a lesser race so off you went to a place of death

No Christians of Germany dissented or were persecuted?

The Protestant, german; Confessing Church

Jehovah's Witnesses and nazi persecution
German churches and the Nazi State

THE PROTESTANT CHURCH

In a further attempt to synchronize religious thought with state policy, the Nazis sought, unsuccessfully, to establish a unified national church. Hitler appointed a Reich Bishop, Ludwig Mueller, who led a "German Christian" movement within the church. Mueller sought to synthesize Nazi ideology and Protestant tradition and to agitate for a "people's church" based on "good Aryan blood." This movement had gained 600,000 adherents by the mid-1930s. The Nazi government also attempted to supplant Christian worship with secular Nazi party celebrations which adopted many symbols of religious ritual but instead glorified the party and the Fuehrer. Efforts were also made to dilute clerical influence on religious instruction in the public schools, as well as to curb the activities and influence the curricula of religious schools.

In 1933, a small group of Protestant clergy formed the Pastors' Emergency League. Founded by Martin Niemöller, the league took a stand against Nazi domination of the church.

reply to post by Clearskies


-_- yes well done thanks for proving my point

they were persecuted for bieng a minority of decenters not for bieng christian in regards to the the Confessing Church who at least tried to make a stand

like i said no christians were persecuted purley on the basis they were christian

i also said that minorties within the church helped save jews

Jehovah's Witnesses endured intense persecution*snip*Because they refused to serve in the military or give allegiance to the Nazi government

hmmm not becasue they were christian then

so the vastly numerically superior lutheran evangelical church and the catholic church towed the line and went along with nazi policies of the final solution for jews

besides clearskies isnt your usual argument hitler was an athiest?

sorry OT looks like i maganed to derail the topic with a quote from hitler

lets get back on topic and the point still stands made above

many of the things people do in life they do becasue they wnat to do or need to fix

they do them becasue of what ever the fact they are also christians doesnt men they did them only becasue they ar christians