The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

THE Great Conspiracy!!!

OT asks, “WHAT IF JESUS OF NAZARETH HAD NEVER BEEN BORN? I mean seriously…what would the world we live in look like?”

Skeptic replies, “oh no, not another OT thread! Bible verses, 3rd party referrals, dead dude quotes from the past…won’t this old guy just go away!?”

“Nope, OT is here to stay…Well let’s get started…ok? A world without Jesus would look like this…”

“But OT could you set the stage for us?”

“Sure! Here are some…ADMISSIONS…!”
1) Yes, Christians make mistakes and are hypocrites, so please no response-links to the crusades, ok? Mistakes are the REASON we ‘need a savior’… www.youtube.com...
2) Yes, Christians are pushy, in asking ‘why do you run from Jesus?’… www.youtube.com...
3) Yes, Christians are arrogant and OT is a peculiar Jesus Freak… www.youtube.com...
“People say OT is strange, does that make me stranger, that my best friend was born in a manger?”
= = = =
“Hmm…..A world with out Jesus?” How would slaves fair? Not Good! Yes, it’s true we Christians allowed slavery in the American past. This was an erroneous belief. Please see (Exodus 21:16 and 1 Timothy 1:10) for the biblical condemnation of slavery. Christianity lifted the roles of those oppressed, by accepting women and slaves as full members. Historians credit the British evangelical William Wilberforce as the catalyst for ending of the international slave trade (which happened before to the Civil War). Did you know that 2/3’s of the members of the American abolition in 1835 were Christians.

How would women fair? Not Good! For many ancient cultures a wife was property of the spouse. Even Aristotle said a women was somewhere between a man and a slave. Read Reasons for God by Tim Keller…"It was extremely common in the Greco-Roman world to throw out new female infants to die from exposure, because of the low status of women in society. The church forbade its members to do so. Greco-Roman society saw no value in an unmarried woman, and therefore it was illegal for a widow to go more than two years without remarrying. But Christianity was the first religion to not force widows to marry. They were supported financially and honored within the community so that they were not under great pressure to remarry if they didn't want to. Pagan widows lost all control of their husband's estate when they remarried but the church allowed widows to maintain their husband's estate. Finally, Christians did not believe in cohabitiation. If a Christian man wanted to live with a woman he had to marry her, and this gave women far greater security. Also, the pagan double standard of allowing married men to have extramarital sex and mistresses was forbidden. In all these ways Christian women enjoyed far greater security and equality than did women in the surrounding culture. Also in India, widows were voluntarily or involuntarily burned on their husbands' funeral pyres. The gospel spreaders/missionaries saw to it this practice stopped.

What about the Gladiator competition? It may still be going on…Telemachus, an early Christian is recognized as the one who stopped this barbaric practice. What about cannibalism? Yep, alive and well is some countries…before Christian Missionaries, helped primitives grow up.

Would there be true compassion and mercy? Probably not! Jesus’ ministry gave an elevated position to the lowly. Notice the Good Samarian… it’s still a part of a vocabulary . While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Christain charities stand out. Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens/thrift shops, etc. Saint Nick, too, was a saint.

How would Children fair? Not Good! Back in the day infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. In Roman culture the killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. It was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanticide. The modern pro-life movement is largely Christian. This pro-life view has been true from the very beginning of Christianity. An early Christian document, the Didache, contained instructions against abortion.

What about Education? Would be way behind! Remember Judeo/Christian tradition certainly put an emphasis on the written word. The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation. Please do a little research here.

Many of the fine Ivy League Schools used to be Bible Colleges…to promote Bible literacy, Christians have been leaders in education. With the advent of the printing press at about the same time as the Protestant Reformation…many of the world's languages were first set to writing by Christian missionaries in order for people to read the Bible.

To require education for the masses in America was first passed by the Puritans. "THE OLD DELUDER SATAN ACT." was a reference to the devil, who Christians believe gets his foothold into people's lives because of their ignorance of Scripture.

Remember before Madelyn Marie O’hare, children's reading texts emphasized biblical literacy. This was so prevalent in colonial America, that John Quincy Adams said in the early 1800's that the illiteracy rate was only 4/10th of 1 percent. By comparison, it has been estimated that in America today, 40 million people are functionally illiterate.

Most of the first 123 colleges in America were Christian institutions. Harvard, for example, was founded on this statement: “Let every student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life.” Who wouldathoughtit?

What about the arts? Non-existent! The Christian faith has influenced literature in such Christian writers such as Dante, Chaucer, Donne, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton, etc. Music? No! There may never have developed the cantata, the concerto, or the symphony. Handel, Vivaldi, and Bach were Christians who worked to honor God with their work. Bach, signed all his work "Solely to the glory of God". Architecture? Boring! No glorious….cathedral!

What about freedom? Government of the People? Nope! For one, America's first constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. Remember the Puritan framers of this document required that each aspect of it be grounded in Scripture…we used to be taught that in public school history! Also 50 of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution were Christians. Also, the truth of the sin nature played a role in the concept of our Constitutional checks and balances system. Also the 10 commandments Helped form the idea of The Rule of Law rather than the authority of man…this traces back to the Old Testament, and the Ten Commandments. And what about the idea that all men are created equal as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence? This is certainly a biblical doctrine. Also, the sovereign authority of God (in the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, all 50 state constitutions, our currency, etc.)--rather than the sovereignty of the state--is certainly biblical. Also, The Declaration of Independence—speaks of, self-evident truths and unalienable rights from the Creator. Remember John Adams emphasized 2 Corinthians 3:17 as the basis for American civil liberty. The slogan on the Liberty Bell is "Proclaim Liberty throughout the land unto all the Inhabitants Thereof" is from Leviticus 15:10.

Free Enterprise and the "Protestant work ethic?” Nope! We have two chooses…biblical capitalism and evolutionary capitalism. The emphasis on biblical capitalism is servanthood--a Jesus teaching, right?. Evolutionary capitalism relies solely on survival of the fittest. Communism, too is an atheistic system that relies on the non-biblical notion that all men are good…thus we have ‘the common good’ ???

Skeptics, please take a LONGER LOOK at life…OT says, be careful what you wish for…this is not a game.

OT

It wouldn't matter to me if he was never born. The things he supposedly said are still right and true. The only people who would be crushed by it being that he was never born or never existed would be those who worship his image instead of what he teaches.

reply to post by badmedia


Excellent point Badmedia!!

Thank you...

The OT was created by Saturn worshiper and the God/Gods were from Saturn.

Jesus was alive, they put portions of his teachings in the NT and created the bible to distort his teachings and show what happens to the people who are aware of the way things really are.

[edit on 29-10-2008 by Shawn B.]

Originally posted by Shawn B.
The OT was created by Saturn worshiper and the God/Gods were from Saturn.

Jesus was alive, they put portions of his teachings in the NT and created the bible to distort his teachings and show what happens to the people who are aware of the way things really are.

[edit on 29-10-2008 by Shawn B.]

ShawnB,

Appreciate the post/thoughts...

How does that relate to all the good things society has garnished from Jesus?

OT curious??

it's kindof funny when people like yourself go door to door. one guy told me i was going to hell. lol i told him i'll bring the bar b cue sauce. my wife handles it a lot better. she's hindu and if someone asks her if she's saved she just says yes, lol. it'll catch her off guard sometimes and she pauses before saying it.

i respect religious people but it always scares me that it's possiblethere are people actually taking it seriously. it seems obvious to me that christians spend their time convincing thmeselves more than anyone else. of course people of different walks of life convince themselves of things that arent' true too. i'm not saying the chrsitans are worse off on the whole mind you.

it all does seem off though, if you REALLY took it seriously don't you think you'd be doing something else??? i'm not trying to flame you but it just stands out so much from my point of view.

Originally posted by Mozzy
it's kindof funny when people like yourself go door to door. one guy told me i was going to hell. lol i told him i'll bring the bar b cue sauce. my wife handles it a lot better. she's hindu and if someone asks her if she's saved she just says yes, lol. it'll catch her off guard sometimes and she pauses before saying it.

i respect religious people but it always scares me that it's possiblethere are people actually taking it seriously. it seems obvious to me that christians spend their time convincing thmeselves more than anyone else. of course people of different walks of life convince themselves of things that arent' true too. i'm not saying the chrsitans are worse off on the whole mind you.

it all does seem off though, if you REALLY took it seriously don't you think you'd be doing something else??? i'm not trying to flame you but it just stands out so much from my point of view.

Anyone tells me I'm going to hell, I'll let them know they are a nut.

I think this is a good time to point out that what the church says and what Jesus said are 2 different things. I don't subscribe to those dogmas the church has created. Bunch of false idol worshipers IMO.

I have a better question.

What would things be like if the universe didn't exist?

Originally posted by OldThinker
ShawnB,

Appreciate the post/thoughts...

How does that relate to all the good things society has garnished from Jesus?

OT curious??

Here's what I think of that.

www.biblegateway.com...

Matthew 7:

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Originally posted by Mozzy

it all does seem off though, if you REALLY took it seriously don't you think you'd be doing something else??? i'm not trying to flame you but it just stands out so much from my point of view.

Mozzy, thank you for your post...

What seems 'off' to you?

OT

reply to post by badmedia


Matt 7...

Great passage!!!

I agree NOT everyone who says, "I believe"...really knows HIM

But in the end He is about Grace/Forgiveness and love....He'll reach to us...if we seek him with our whole heart.

One evil cult less on this world?

(I'm a formal Catholic Christian myself, but only in my passport, when I went to church the last time a decade ago I felt like witnessing a sect)

//EDIT: Just to clarify, in my country people don't jump around and dance and sing, it's more like this:



Scary...

[edit on 29.10.2008 by SiONiX]

Originally posted by gandaalf
I have a better question.

What would things be like if the universe didn't exist?

????

OK....

Is there a (relevant) point here?

OT out!

Originally posted by SiONiX
One evil cult less on this world?

(I'm a formal Catholic Christian myself, but only in my passport, when I went to church the last time a decade ago I felt like witnessing a sect)

SiONiX,

Hi!

I'm having a little trouble following what you are saying here...

Can you please clarify/elaborate a bit?

OT

I think things would be pretty much the same minus WWJD profiteering, seeing as Jesus is not the only dude out there preaching that kind of message. What about Buddha? Didnt Buddha come first anyways? And what about Krishna, didnt he come before buddha, and correct me if Im wrong, but I think Krishna even said he would incarnate in each age where there is lack of spirituality, maybe thats buddha and jesus.
Who knows. All I know, is that every single human has a divine impression of the singular source deep within them which I guess I'll call god for lack of better word, and if they just look within and loose themselves of who they think they are and surrender unto the divine within, they too will be sharing the word and the message of doing unto others with unconditional humble compassion and forgiveness to the world.

"IT lets not the left hand know what the right hand is doing; as above so below"-God

well, it seems like people that preach at you are more often than not trying to convince themselves by making you believe it.

Originally posted by Mozzy
well, it seems like people that preach at you are more often than not trying to convince themselves by making you believe it.

Man, I hear you...

Great point!!!

So many don't INTERNALIZE their beliefs...

Originally posted by psychedeliack
I think things would be pretty much the same minus WWJD profiteering, seeing as Jesus is not the only dude out there preaching that kind of message. What about Buddha? Didnt Buddha come first anyways? And what about Krishna, didnt he come before buddha, and correct me if Im wrong, but I think Krishna even said he would incarnate in each age where there is lack of spirituality, maybe thats buddha and jesus.
Who knows. All I know, is that every single human has a divine impression of the singular source deep within them which I guess I'll call god for lack of better word, and if they just look within and loose themselves of who they think they are and surrender unto the divine within, they too will be sharing the word and the message of doing unto others with unconditional humble compassion and forgiveness to the world.

"IT lets not the left hand know what the right hand is doing; as above so below"-God

psychedeliack,

Great post...in parts.

Do some research on the society's that follow Budha and Krishna...

See how humans are treated....

It's a cause and EFFECT thing...

Your answer is out there...

OT

Constantin the great will make a party with some of his buddies and they will make an edict and than they will attach it to some bestseller, just to boost popularity.

I find your efforts interesting and applaud them, I really do. However since Jesus did presumably exist it is hard to create an in-depth analysis of what a world would be like with out him with out bringing in ones own bias. It is truly a question that will never have a right or wrong answer. I can assume the world would have been better off with out religion from the beginning and you can assume the world would be worse off with out Jesus. Either way the speculation is somewhat useless. The religions based off the bible have caused a lot of good and bad. I find it odd anyone would choose to assume what the world would be like with out Jesus, we only know of the outcome of the religious climate we now live in thanks to his existence; this current religious climate is already tirelessly debated as good or bad or both, with out bringing in “what if” speculations.