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The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

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posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 07:31 PM
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Like the OP, the next question would be what if the Bible itself is not actually the complete account of Abrahim, Moses and Jesus etc and has actually been altered and rearranged in such away to dilute its originally intended understandings?
Or even heaven forbid(excuse the pun, which was unintended.)to corrupt them AKA Illumanati/NWO/Incanabula style???

news.bbc.co.uk...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 3-11-2008 by Epsillion70]




posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by Epsillion70
 

E70

Welcome!

Is it illogical that an omniscient deity could preserve HIS message to man?

Have you noticed it's reliability?

For example...the number of like translations compared to other supposed respected documents....heres the document, when they lived and how many copies.....see the last one compared to the list, ok?

= = = = =

Lucretius, died 55 or 53 B.C., 1100 yrs, 2 copies
Pliny, 61-113 A.D., 850 A.D., 750 yrs, 7 copies
Plato 427-347 B.C., 900 A.D., 1200 yrs, 7 Copies
Demosthenes 4th Cent. , B.C, 800 yrs, 8 copies
Herodotus, 1300 yrs, 8 Copies
Suetonius, 950 A.D.800 yrs, 8 copies
Thucydides, 460-400 B.C., 900 A.D., 1300 yrs, 8 copies
Euripides, 480-406 B.C., 1100 A.D., 1300 yrs, 9copies
Aristophanes, 450-385 B.C., 900 A.D., 1200, 10 copies
Caesar 100-44 B.C., 900 A.D., 1000, 10 copies
Tacitus circa, 100 A.D., 1100 A.D., 1000 yrs, 20 copies
Aristotle, 384-322 B.C., 1100 A.D., 1400, 49 copies
Sophocles, 496-406 B.C., 1000 A.D., 1400 yrs, 193 copies
Homer (Iliad), 900 B.C. 400 B.C., 500 yrs, 643 copies

NewTes.1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.) less than 100 years, 5600 copies



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 07:44 PM
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I see you added to your post...I will look them over...thx!



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 07:51 PM
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Here’s more! What about how OTHERS addressed Jesus?

Some of the viewers called/considered him God (Luke 7.16; 8.39-40)
John the Baptist recognized Jesus' superiority to himself (Matthew 3.13; John 1.26-30,34)
Followers and those whose lives He touched worshipped Him (Matthew 14.33; John 9.35)
He was called the Son of God (Matthew 14.33; 16.16; John 1.26-30,34; John 1.49; 11.27)
He was called "God" directly (John 20.27)
Later Rabbi writings 'remember' some of these exorbitant claims of Jesus.
God calls him "Son" and declares that He is "pleased" with Jesus (Matthew 3.16)
God tells some of the disciples to pay attention to Jesus (Matthew 17.5)
DEMONS knew he was the Son of God (Matthew 8.28-29; 3.11) and the Holy One of God (Matthew 1.23)
His enemies knew he was claiming to be God (Matthew 9.3; 26.63; John 5.18; 10.33)--and accused him of blasphemy.



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by Epsillion70
 


Hey E70!!

Serious question---I don't know---is not a wiki post written by the author theirselves? Or is it a third party posting? Is it a reliable source or biased? Please help me out here, ok?



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 08:13 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Yes the actual birth date and even the name of Jesus Christ or Yeshua Ben Noah or Jacob if you prefer has its doubts of authenticity as his DOB ranges historically;
from Jan 6, Feb 16, April 19-21 etc etc.
Though at the end of the day I don't see this at all as detracting from the actual certainty of the mind and spirit of infinite love that the one called Jesus spoke of in all the gospels including the gnostic ones that I have personally read myself.

As I understand that Jesus main aim was to empart the creative idea of love and oneness in introspective spirituality as opposed to the man made idea of separation through religiosity.
I also believe that Jesus main emphasize was to try to indeed get away from seeing things through the illusory bodies eyes of ego and instead be lead by the spiritual eyes of the Universal Inspiration/ Holy Spirit.




posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by Epsillion70
Like the OP, the next question would be what if the Bible itself is not actually the complete account of Abrahim, Moses and Jesus etc and has actually been altered and rearranged in such away to dilute its originally intended understandings?
Or even heaven forbid(excuse the pun, which was unintended.)to corrupt them AKA Illumanati/NWO/Incanabula style???

news.bbc.co.uk...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 3-11-2008 by Epsillion70]



I read them...suspect, my brother...I guess a comment from the link you provided me...from way below, sums it up quite well!!!


Asking Bart Ehrman for objective comment on Biblical matters is rather like asking Sarah Palin to provide a Presidential job appraisal for Barack Obama. It's long been known that the story of the woman taken in adultery was not in all copies of the Bible so why does anyone think it's an issue? Professor Ehrman is doing precisely what he accuses others of doing, trying to make a point in support of his own opinion.



Good question...keep searching with me, ok?

OT out

PS UPDATE: Redskins 6, Steelers 0....McCain must be excited!!!!



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 08:23 PM
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Here’s some verses that say Jesus was a ‘bad dude’, that means ‘a good man, really strong guy’ in slang!!!

I guess the religious word would be OMNIPOTENT!!!!!!!!!

Would love to see HIM in the UFC!!!!!!


John 1.3: Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Luke 4.38-40: Jesus … rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up at once and began to wait on them. When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.

Mark 4.41: They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"

Luke 4.36: All the people were amazed and said to each other, "What is this teaching? With authority and power he gives orders to evil spirits and they come out!"
Matthew 28.18: Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

John 5.227: "And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."

John 10.17,18: "… I lay down my life… I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again"

John 6.37,39: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away… I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day"



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
!!!!!

Would love to see HIM in the UFC!!!!!!





Somehow I couldn't see JC having the bodily urge to fight another human being for whatever reason because that would be the whole antithesis of what he understood and what he stood for. Which I understand to be is love, joy, happiness, oneness, gentleness and peace.



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 09:01 PM
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reply to post by Epsillion70
 



Hyperbole?

Satire?

A joke?


Did any of these words enter your mind?


Your point is true....GOD IS LOVE! No offense intended, ok?



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by bandaidctrl
 


Reply to your long post...

Not sure if you said you were a polygamist or endorsed it...I've got three words for you!!!

GOD
BLESS
YOU!!!!


Wish you nothing but the best!

I guess that was nine words....




posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 09:06 PM
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my fav title for him is SON OF MAN.
it says alot in just three short words



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 09:11 PM
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I'll post a few more once I get home, I've got to go help set up the polls for tomorrow

GO GO POLL DEPUTIES!!

-JR

edit: typos PEACE!!

[edit on 3-11-2008 by bandaidctrl]
JR, thanks for your service to democracy, hope you have a good day....aspirin may be in your near future



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Son of Man, yes!

Found this further explanation... www.christiananswers.net...

Thanks!



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by Epsillion70
reply to post by OldThinker
 

...
As I understand that Jesus main aim was to empart the creative idea of love and oneness in introspective spirituality as opposed to the man made idea of separation through religiosity.
I also believe that Jesus main emphasize was to try to indeed get away from seeing things through the illusory bodies eyes of ego and instead be lead by the spiritual eyes of the Universal Inspiration/ Holy Spirit.



Sorry I missed this post earlier, been distracted by the Redskins game, sorry!

Yes, a little background...

a physician named Luke, a follower of JC, tells a story of JC having dinner with a regular dude, who wanted to change his life, after a discussion with JC....

Luke goes on to say....that JC said..."For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save what was lost"
HE is about love, acceptance and patience with the BS in our lives...

Thanks for contributing to our thread!

OT honored!



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 10:05 PM
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What if Jesus was never born?

so what..

the earth would continue to turn, the continental plates would continue to move, and the sun would rise and set..

all of the human conventions we think are so important dont really matter, i mean, its not really "monday", humans made up monday; we dont really live in the USA, we made up national borders; and no one is really a "christian", we made that up too; and the "bible" isnt really anything but paper and glue, if i ground it up and put it in a mass spectrometer the spectrum wouldnt read "holy"

if you enjoy the words of the bible and they enrich your life then i am happy for you

if you need others to follow the bible then it suggest an insecurity on your part

to each his own

Ret



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 10:13 PM
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reply to post by retzius
 


r,

really appreciate the well-thought-through, albeit 'physical realm' response...

and your time for posting it, what's your take on the whole religious, christian thing?

OT curious?




posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by retzius
What if Jesus was never born?

so what..

the earth would continue to turn, the continental plates would continue to move, and the sun would rise and set..

all of the human conventions we think are so important dont really matter, i mean, its not really "monday", humans made up monday; we dont really live in the USA, we made up national borders; and no one is really a "christian", we made that up too; and the "bible" isnt really anything but paper and glue, if i ground it up and put it in a mass spectrometer the spectrum wouldnt read "holy"

if you enjoy the words of the bible and they enrich your life then i am happy for you

if you need others to follow the bible then it suggest an insecurity on your part

to each his own

Ret


r,

As I see it…you have 5 points…

You said…

“earth would continue to turn”…

OT says, He mentions the earth here in…

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

Is it possible HE has something to do with it????


You said, “continental plates would continue to move,”


OT says Dr. Nevins observed….”The popular theory of drifting continents and oceans is called "plate tectonics." (Tectonics is the field of geology which studies the processes which deform the earth’s crust.) The general tenets of the popular theory may be stated as follows. The outer lithospheric shell of the earth consists of a mosaic of rigid plates, each in motion relative to adjacent plates. Deformation occurs at the margins of plates by three basic types of motion: horizontal extension, horizontal slipping, and horizontal compression. Sea-floor spreading occurs where two plates are diverging horizontally (e.g., the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and East Pacific Rise) with new material from the earth's mantle being added between them to form a new oceanic crust. Transform faulting occurs where one plate is slipping horizontally past another (e.g., the San Andreas fault of California and the Anatolian fault of northern Turkey). Subduction occurs where two plates are converging with one plate underthrusting the other producing what is supposed to be compressional deformation (e.g., the Peru-Chile Trench and associated Andes Mountains of South America). In conformity with evolutionary-uniformitarian assumption, popular plate tectonic theory supposes that plates move very slowly — about 2 to 18 centimeters per year. At this rate it would take 100 million years to form an ocean basin or mountain range.”

And since you brought us here, he also said…

“The idea that the continents can be fitted together like a jigsaw puzzle to form a single super continent is an old one. Especially interesting is how the eastern "bulge" of South America can fit into the southwestern "concavity" of Africa. Recent investigators have used computers to fit the continents. The "Bullard fit"2 gives one of the best reconstructions of how Africa, South America, Europe, and North America may have once touched. There are, however, areas of overlap of continents and one large area which must be omitted from consideration (Central America). There are a number of ways to fit Africa, India, Australia, and Antarctica (only one can be correct!). Reconstructions have been shown to be geometrically feasible which are preposterous to continental drift (e.g., rotation of eastern Australia fits nicely into eastern North America). Those who appreciate the overall fit of continents call the evidence "compelling," while others who note gaps, overlaps, or emissions remain skeptical. It is difficult to place probability on the accuracy of reconstructions and one's final judgment is largely subjective.”


You also said, “…sun would rise and set…”


OT says, www.bibleandscience.com and many many others on their site have said,


“The Sun Stood Still

In Joshua chapter ten is the famous story of Joshua commanding the sun to stand still. Does this mean that the earth stopped revolving? Scientists say that this would tear the earth apart. The more important question is how the people at Joshua’s time understood this. In Acts 2:20 the moon is turned "into blood." Does this mean the moon turned into real blood? No! It is used figuratively of a lunar eclipse when the moon turns a dull red color, sometimes when the moon is close to the horizon the atmosphere causes the mood to look orange-red in color, or clouds or smoke can darken the moon.

Akkadian Literature
A look at ancient records show that heavenly bodies standing still was common terminology used back then. Let’s look at a few examples in the book The Reports of the Magicians and Astrologers of Nineveh and Babylon in the British Museum by R. Campbell Thompson.

Report 1
Report one says, "When the day is long according to its calculation, there will be a long reign. The day is calculated to last as long as the Sun remains above the horizon." When a month has 30 days, its days are said to have their full or proper length.
Report 33
Report 33 says, "Mars which has stood in Scorpio to go forth turns". This is probably a reference to the retrograde motion of Mars.
Report 37
Reports 37 says, "When the Moon stands in a fixed position, there will be want of rain."
Report 90
Report 90 says, "When the Sun stands within the halo of the Moon, in all lands they will speak truth."
Report 153
Report 153 says, "When the Moon stops in its course, the market will be low."
Report 176
Report 176 says, "When the Sun stands in the place of the Moon, the king of the land will be secure on his throne."
Report 183
Report 183 says, "Jupiter has stood for a month over its reckoned time."
Report 261
Report 261 says, "When it thunders in Sebat, heaven will rain with stones."
In the State Archives of Assyria volume X, report 145 says, "The 30th day became 'long.' In Volume VIII report 310 says, "IF in Adar (XII) the sun stands still in the middle of noontime: the land will experience siege (and) misery." These reports show us that terms like "the sun or moon stood still" were commonly used to describe certain conditions of heavenly bodies that they observed. It does not mean the earth stopped rotating.
Another important point is that one of the most important calculations in ancient times was the full moon in the middle of the month. The first day of a full moon was when the moon set minutes after sunrise, so that the sun and moon were both visible on opposite horizons. If this was on the 14th, it was a good omen; if on the 15th, it was a bad omen? Report 48 says, "on the fourteenth day the Moon was seen with the Sun. There will be an overthrowing of fortresses and downfall of garrisons."

Greek Literature
There is a similar passage to Joshua 10 in the Iliad which says, "Zeus, most glorious, most great, the one of the dark clouds, that dwellest in the heaven, grant that the sun set not, neither darkness come upon us, until I have cast down in headlong ruin the hall of Priam, blacked with smoke, and have burned with consuming fire the portals thereof" (Younger, 215; Book II:412-15).

Joshua 10
Lawson Younger in his book Ancient Conquest Accounts has some very interesting comparisons of Joshua 10 with other ancient Assyrian, Hittite, and Egyptian conquest accounts. Being able to conquer the enemy in a single day is a great victory in ancient times. One implored his god to maintain daylight long enough for their enemies to be defeated. The supernatural aid of the god in battle with hailstones is also told. Compare the Hittite account in Mursili’s Comprehensive Annals, Sargon’s Letter to the God(207-11), and the Gebal Barkal Stela of Thutmose III (217) with Joshua (see below).
Dr. John Walton who teaches at Moody Bible Institute gives two important observation. First, the description in Joshua 10 "places the sun in the east and the moon in the west, thus indicating that the prayer was made in the morning" (1994, 182). Secondly, this day is unique not because of astronomical phenomenon, but because God listened to the voice of man.
In Joshua 10:13 the moon is said to "stand" or "wait." In ancient times the moon is said "to not wait" for the sun when it sets below the horizon before the sun rises. When the moon and sun are seen together then the moon is said "to wait" or "stand" for the sun. When the moon is said "to stand" it means the moon is not on the horizon but further up in the sky (Ibid, 185). Joshua 10 seems to indicate that it was the 15th day of the month which was a bad omen of destruction for Joshua’s enemies.”


And you said, “the bible isn’t really anything but paper and glue, if i ground it up and put it in a mass spectrometer the spectrum wouldnt read "holy"


OT says, “I’m a Master Black Belt in the mathematical discipline of Six Sigma….ever heard of it…?...and I say…please see…

www.josh.org...

www.joshmcdowell.org...

www.joshmcdowell.org...

www.joshmcdowell.org...



No idiot here bro…OT IS up for any challenge!!! Been there, done that…be careful who you take on!!!!!


and lastly you said…”if you need others to follow the bible, then it suggests an insecurity on your part…”


OT says, I’m SORRY YOU FEEL THAT WAY…IF YOU DARE, Please see…


About my family… www.belowtopsecret.com...


About my faith… www.belowtopsecret.com...


Thanks so much for engaging me…


THIS IS NO GAME BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!


If ur a seeker, you will find HIM…


If not, OT CAN NOT HELP U!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry……..


OT out - Phil 1:3



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 11:35 PM
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Caps Lock is cruise control to cool

Ret

j/k



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 01:19 AM
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The question posed at the start of this thread has NOT been properly addressed here.

A few skeptics such as myself are still trying to find a historic account of Jesus. Can we please address that? Can we please not gloss over that with another 4000 words praising Jesus? Pretty please.

OT - I sincerely appreciate your knowledge on the subject. It is nice to see a religious person who actually has some knowledge. But I have to say the length of your posts are not conducive to this debate. You could be more effective by being more efficient. Otherwise it's just a lecture....or a book.

No offense intended, please don't take it that way. I just want to get to the root of the question.

We keep hearing over and over how it either doesn't matter if he existed or not, or how barbarous the world would be without him. No one is even touching the possibility that he didn't exist and we are currently living the scenario of a world where Jesus wasn't born.

Come on now guys: Can someone please show me some historic records of Jesus?



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