The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

Originally posted by Clearskies

Moses said it first;

so what your saying is moses agree's

every jew that doesnt become a christian will be cast out.....

i dont think you grasp what anti-sematism actually means, its nothing to do with it. its one group of jews berating and threatening another group of jews

jews V's jesus's jews

That's true.
You are either saved or you're not.
Not just jewish people or jungle heathens.

and as jews dont accept jesus he is condeming all jews right yes i know its true

and for the record whats a 'jungle heathen'? the middle east is desert not jungle

I didn't say Christians who don't believe in Jesus' teachings were going to hell, just that they are not TRUE Christians, NOT LIVING UP to Jesus' commands.
The thief on the cross, probably didn't know WHAT his theology was, apart from Jesus being the awaited Messiah.

so if your not a real christian you get to go to heaven too then?

reply to post by OldThinker


I wouldn't matter if he was born or not because either way there are dozens of other religions who actually parallel and pre-date Christianity.

Oh and to say that women wouldn't fare well is an extreme overstatement.
Have you taken a serious look at most pagan religions? They thrive off of BALANCE, male and female, ying and yang, in fact throughout history women are actually praised for their fertility and and nurturing nature

in fact isn't christianity the only religion to blame a woman for the fall of man?

Women have always been seen as the givers of life, they were healers and child bearers, they were believed to have even more power over the men. So by saying that without JC we'd all be screwed is an extremely biased statement

Polygamy and security? You read and see all about the women and girls who are AGAINST polygamy, what about the countless of other women who see nothing wrong with it at all? Who are you to say that Christianity is going to save them? What if they simply do not want to be "saved". According to your post every single woman in a polygamous relationship is being held captive by the ugly old man and his cronies living on their compounds and communes and communities. Good ol' JC to the rescue though.

Oh here's a quote from Paul, one of JC's disciples about women in the church,
1 Corinthians 14:34,"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

BTW, as you would know, King David had MULTIPLE mistresses so to say that Christianity was without flaw there is to say that BK everyday is not going to make you fat.

Some quotes from the Bible on polygamy:
Exodus 21:10, "If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money."
(This concerns a man who has a female servant who he gave to his son as a wife, and if the son take another wife, the servant wife is to not be neglected. If she is, she goes free without money)

1 Kings 11:3, "He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines..."
(it does go on to say that his wives turned his heart away from God though, but that's not the argument we're making now is it?)

Here's one on what a man should do in case both his wives bear him sons

Deuteronomy 21:15, "If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:..."
(It goes on to say that the son of the wife who is hated, because being the official firstborn, should be given the right over the son who is from the beloved wife.)

If you go looking a into NT there are MANY verses that deem polygamy to be unfavorable to the eyes of God, but NOT ONCE will you see FLAT OUT prohibition on the general public (it DOES however say that men in power, i.e. priests, kings etc. should only take one wife)

You are looking at extremes, and you yourself admit that people make mistakes (crusades for example) and that is why we need a saviour. Well why does that saviour have to be the ol' JC?

You speak of mistakes though, what makes any one of the examples you posted any different than a mistake?


edit: spelling





[edit on 2-11-2008 by bandaidctrl]

Originally posted by bandaidctrl
reply to post by OldThinker

 

I wouldn't matter if he was born or not because either way there are dozens of other religions who actually parallel and pre-date Christianity.


[edit on 2-11-2008 by bandaidctrl]

Thanks for the post....I've got a lot of catching up to do...and I'll respond more...boy there has been alot of activities and trips to Abilene, since I've been out...


Food for thought though...parallel, huh? How many other religious leaders have an empty tomb? Resurrected and witnessed by a few thousand after the fact?

reply to post by OldThinker


I think you're asking the wrong question OT:

you should be asking who claims that his tomb is empty, that he rose from the dead and that it was witnessed by thousands...

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by OldThinker

 

No, deists are by definition, the least devout of the theist 'kinds', so it's an oxymoron to say "devout deist", they are the extremes of the spectrum.

= = = =

GW, Thanks for the info about deists.

I didn't know...

OT

reply to post by noobfun



Noobfun,

Good point with your breakfast illustration.

I am on Adkins, no carbs

OT

reply to post by nj2day



nj2day,


Stop making my head hurt


I'm on a plane now, flight attendant is yelling at me, I'll get back with ya late today bro

reply to post by OldThinker


hehe

kk, have a nice flight mate

I love being the devils advocate lol its a blast

Originally posted by OldThinker
Food for thought though...parallel, huh? How many other religious leaders have an empty tomb? Resurrected and witnessed by a few thousand after the fact?

To be fair, Christianity doesn't for sure, either. We don't have anywhere near enough evidence that the guy even existed, let alone had an empty tomb. Out side of the Bible (which was not written as a first hand account, hence hearsay) we haven't any evidence of these 'witnesses'.

However, we do have evidence of ancient christian-parallel religions. One significant one was Zoroastrianism which had a heavy influence on the development of the early Hebrew theology. And then there is the heavy borrowing of Egyptian and various other pagan theologies in the bible. Christianity really isn't original or unique in any way.

Hell, if the Egyptian civilisation hadn't fallen, then we'd probably still be worshipping Horus.

[edit on 11/3/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by OldThinker

Thanks for the post....I've got a lot of catching up to do...and I'll respond more...boy there has been alot of activities and trips to Abilene, since I've been out...


Food for thought though...parallel, huh? How many other religious leaders have an empty tomb? Resurrected and witnessed by a few thousand after the fact?

Before I continue with my reply, I'll state that I'm NOT arguing about the whether or not Chritianity is a valid belief system, I'm not arguing about where it originated how it started etc. By saying that many religions often paralleled Christianity, I mean to say that there are MANY similarities between Christianity and other beliefs, i.e. Hinduism, the Aztecs, Druidism, Greco-Roman etc. (All these systems have a saviour who was crucified).

Christianity by far, is a belief all on it's own.

One example would be Dionysus, he descended into the underworld in search of his mother, Semele.

According the ancient Greco-Roman beliefs, if you are not already dead on your way to the underworld, you soon become dead, and only through Hades' permission are you allowed to leave and return to life, which is what Dionysus did, and he brought his mom too!

This was something everyone of his followers knew, and it was a story told across the regions for a good while.


I'll post a few more once I get home, I've got to go help set up the polls for tomorrow

GO GO POLL DEPUTIES!!

-JR

edit: typos PEACE!!

[edit on 3-11-2008 by bandaidctrl]

reply to post by moonrat
Very much so,moonrat people like OT insure that those televangelists and their mega-chruches won't soon run out of marks and cash.

Hey OT, how is the hypothetical state of the world without Jesus "The Great Conspiracy"?



It's not technically even a conspiracy, but just a 'what-if'

what if Jesus was never born?

[edit on 11/3/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by mike dangerously


Mike, these drive-by comments are ignorant, stereotypical, and lazy!!

Don't know where you live, obviously you don't get out much!

Mega-churches account for a very small percentages of churches...

You are welcome to join the converation, but how bout some data, pulling posts out of you arse makes my thread smell!

Originally posted by OldThinker
Noobfun,

Good point with your breakfast illustration.

I am on Adkins, no carbs

OT

and thats why i pushed for a better answer, your a cantacerous old sod at times but your lovable and deffinatley witty

dam near spat my coffee when i read this reply deffinatley wasnt expecting it

thanks OT ^_^

Originally posted by mike dangerously
reply to post by moonrat

 

Very much so,moonrat people like OT insure that those televangelists and their mega-chruches won't soon run out of marks and cash.

Mike, these drive-by comments are ignorant, stereotypical, and lazy!!

Don't know where you live, obviously you don't get out much!

Mega-churches account for a very small percentages of churches...

You are welcome to join the converation, but how bout some data, pulling posts out of you arse makes my thread smell!

reply to post by mike dangerously


your on a looser with that comment mike guess you havnt crossed paths with ot before

his belief is as unshakable as a crazy fundie

but he is deffinatley anything but a crazy fundie

he is from what i have seen a believer in the posative side of christianity only, and as such doesnt drop to the your all gonan burn in hell god hates you mentallity so often shown around here

OT is one of three people i can name on these boards(prolly more i just havnt met them yet) you can discuss reliegon with and it will only decend into bikering and sqaubaling if you make it, even then your the one doing it not OT, thats why he made it to my friends list

Pretty darn good post OT. I, of course, don't believe in intangible things. Plus there is no historic record of Jesus other than the bible. The only other recording of him is from Josephus. The ONLY one...to my understanding. And wasn't Josehpus debunked.

Christianity may have done those good deeds you mention. But what's the full tally when you include all the bad that religion has done? But that's neither here nor there.

What if Jesus was never born? You're living in that scenario right now. His myth carries on in the same vain as any other sun-god myth through history.

The Jesus myth does have longevity, I'll give it that. Got to be partly due his passivity in comparison to the murderous, jealous, vengeful god in the old testament.

[edit on 3-11-2008 by Liberty1]

[edit on 3-11-2008 by Liberty1]

Originally posted by clock1
Constantin the great will make a party with some of his buddies and they will make an edict and than they will attach it to some bestseller, just to boost popularity.

That is very witty. I wish I wrote it.

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by mike dangerously

 

You are welcome to join the converation, but how bout some data, pulling posts out of you arse makes my thread smell!

quoted for truth

Hey everyone, OT will work on my case over the next few days…to continue the dialog.

Here’s a few verses and my thoughts accordingly. This post will, of course, be biblical-centric and I’ll have some extra-biblical thoughts as time goes along. Thank you all for your questions/comments and thoughts…you provide a great challenge…I really wish more believers would spend time on ATS, I think they would be better for it. I was sittin’ in church and looked around the room and asked how many folks in here have really, I mean really ‘grappled’ with the rebuttals presented by the smart ATS skeptics? And how would they fair? This has really be good for me and my concept of faith…thank you!

Here’s a couple of strange dialogs JC had while here…

In Mark, he claims that his words will outlast time itself. Mark 13.31: “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

In John, he claims to be absolutely perfect / sinless. John 8.46: “Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?“

In Matthew, he claims that the eternal destiny of people depend on their response to Him. “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' “ Scary thought: Jesus makes people's eternal destiny contingent upon HIS approval of them! Whooo!

In John he claims to be absolutely perfect / sinless. John 8.46: Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?
Here’s one for you- - - - - -Would a normal human being, with ethical standards as high as Jesus, ever claim to be sinless?

He also said….John 15.5: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing!”Question: How could the phrase 'apart from me you can do nothing' make any sense--if Jesus were not God--omnipotent, omnipresent deity?


What about in John 17.10: All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. – Note: Jesus is praying to God in this verse Unless Jesus is truly God, this statement is out of sink, right?

Hey, I heard if the Washington Redskins win the game before the election, the incumbent party gets in and if they loose the challenger party gets in---anybody watching MNF?

spelling

[edit on 3-11-2008 by OldThinker]

[edit on 3-11-2008 by OldThinker]