The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

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posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 03:42 AM
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I believe that Jesus was an instrument to remind us of all the good that we as the human race are capable of. An example of how one should live thier lives to get the most positive experience out of this life.

I think alot of his teachings were appropriate for that time frame and much of the symbolism that he used was intentional for the developmental stage of the people then.

Basically, be good and do what your heart tells you is good for the right reasons and you will have a positive life experience, do things that you know are wrong (in your heart) and you will suffer through those bad choices and ultimately have negative life experiences as a result.

He and his teachings are an example of the "perfect" way to live so that your soul will get the most out of this part of the journey.





posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 03:42 AM
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Jesus was never born, he never did exist physically....historians have already proved that. There is no other record of Jesus ever existing on earth in any other books, logs, journals, whatever, from the same time period when he existed. That also means that no Jewish historian ever wrote about him being a physical person. He isn't even a real person in the Dead Sea scrolls. Although it's hard to grasp and basically it can't be undone, the majority doesn't know of this. The closest thing you are going to get to Jesus is Joshua and Osiris.

Oh...by the way there was know Moses either and i can tel you about the story on that if you woud like.

Trust me, I have very, very many books on histor around that same time. The only place were i have ever heard his name is in the Bible.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 04:54 AM
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reply to post by SlyFox_79
 


I'll post my thoughts on the thread itself after i wake up, there's a lot to say lol

But wanted to reply to you here, in regards to the name thing... they don't even have his name correct in the first place. The name was actually Yahushua or Yahshua. This Jesus person was never in existance, but I think that Yahshua did. Definitely not in the end all and be all that is claimed about the Messiah, but still, it's a pretty big possibility.

As to the topic and the rest of the thread, i'll get into it later.. way too tired right now lol



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 07:39 AM
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well, it is a question like the one concerning the creation of space: " what would happen if there would be no big bang?". it would be different. and saying that Jesus (as a messiah) did not exist is the same as saying that there were never a big bang as well. it is impossible to prove absolutly any of those. it is a matter of beliving or not. the one is sure. beliving in both has changed the world we living.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by ATC_GOD
I believe that Jesus was an instrument to remind us of all the good that we as the human race are capable of. An example of how one should live thier lives to get the most positive experience out of this life.

I think alot of his teachings were appropriate for that time frame and much of the symbolism that he used was intentional for the developmental stage of the people then.




Nice thought...wish we all lived up to that more, huh?

Interesting you used the term 'developmental stage' I agree wholeheartedly...and am reminded of an older post I did in regard to these stages...please see below
= = = =
Background:

I am a follower of Jesus Christ…for over 35yrs

I am a statistician…by trade

I am a believer in the secular-influenced-Lawrence Kolberg, and his theory of Moral Development…built upon Jean Piaget’s Cognitive Development…both behavior scientists of the mid 1900’s.

To summarize Kolberg…every decision/perspective/rationale and ultimately BEHAVIOR…is a result of the their PRIMARY stages of development…

Here’s an overview…

Stage 1 – Decisions/perspectives….based on REWARD and PUNISHMENT…this is the most basic (immature)…another way to say it…the ‘stick’ (ruler) or the ‘carrot’ (sweats)…or from a religious perspective…..‘heaven’ and ‘hell.’

Stage 2 – Decisions/perspectives…based on EXTERNAL Influences…another way to say it… “RULES.”

And

Stage 3 – Decisions/perspectives…based on INTERNAL Influences…another way to say… “PRINCIPLES.”

Here’s an example to bring it to life…

“A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug for his wife.”

The question to ask…to determine…their (current) stage of development is…

Q - “Should Heinz have broken into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?”

A – Stage 1 – “I don’t steal…because I’m afraid of being ‘caught!’

A – Stage 2 – “I don’t steal…because it’s ‘wrong!’

A – Stage 3 – “I don’t steal…because I respect others and their property!” But LIFE is more important…and I’ll pay the price, but a life will be saved!”

Kolberg’s theory is right on, in my book…

His approach, in my mind, is a reflection of the TRUTH documented in the Holy Bible…

Stage 1 – Reward and Punishment – Torah - “...If you eat from this tree, you will surely die…” Genesis 2:16

Stage 2 – Rules - All those old testament commandments…

Stage 3 – Principles – The new testament writers review when the Lord Jesus was asked, “…which is the greatest commandment?” He responded… “…it’s the principle of love…Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor AS YOURSELF.” Matthew 22:36

“ALL the OT rests on this!” Matthew 22:37

So to bring it home, to answer your poignant questions…I try and surround myself with principle-centered people…people who have worked thru the first two stages but are ‘living’ in the third…

By the way, Kolberg explains, that the transitions from one stage to another…is predominantly achieved through asking…”why?” and that’s what ATS stands for!!!



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by SlyFox_79
Jesus was never born, he never did exist physically....historians have already proved that. There is no other record of Jesus ever existing on earth in any other books, logs, journals, whatever, from the same time period when he existed. That also means that no Jewish historian ever wrote about him being a physical person. He isn't even a real person in the Dead Sea scrolls. Although it's hard to grasp and basically it can't be undone, the majority doesn't know of this. The closest thing you are going to get to Jesus is Joshua and Osiris.

Oh...by the way there was know Moses either and i can tel you about the story on that if you woud like.

Trust me, I have very, very many books on histor around that same time. The only place were i have ever heard his name is in the Bible.


Thanks for the post...please enlighten about your (dis) belief in Jesus...

OT curious!!!!



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 11:14 AM
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I'll toss in my 2 cents' worth, then.


Originally posted by OldThinker
OT asks, “WHAT IF JESUS OF NAZARETH HAD NEVER BEEN BORN? I mean seriously…what would the world we live in look like?”


We can, of course, start with the state of the world up until the time that Christianity became one of the major religions of the world -- 300 AD.

How would slaves fare? Well, it might have ended in many areas of the world before this. Your picture of slavery may be based on the fate of the slaves under US Christian slaveowners before the Civil War, but in Rome and Greece the slaves had a pretty good life. You were protected by law, could actually keep some of the money that you earned, were allowed to own some property, could marry, and could buy your freedom. Slaves were sometimes adopted by the head of the household. They did have some rights to sue the master in court:
en.wikipedia.org...

In those days, slavery was not based on skin color.

They fared even better in ancient Greece, where manumission was encouraged and where the philosophers often argued (400 BC and onward) that all men were born free and slavery was wrong en.wikipedia.org...




How would women fair? Not Good!


Well, in Ancient Egypt they fared better than they did in Ancient Israel:
web.archive.org...://www.library.nwu.edu/class/history/B94/B94women.html


Pagan widows lost all control of their husband's estate when they remarried but the church allowed widows to maintain their husband's estate.

Not entirely true. When a country became a Christian empire, then yes... but before that, Christians lived under the law of whatever land. And as time went on, that principle changed somewhat so that elder male relatives often controlled a widow's properties unless special arrangements were made in the wills.


Also, the pagan double standard of allowing married men to have extramarital sex and mistresses was forbidden.


Three things here:
* Christian men were every bit as prone to stray as "pagans." Read the Canterbury Tales and other old literature and folktales for tons and tons of examples. You might also want to note the striking number of mixed-race Blacks (plantation slaves) in the South from the Civil War and before and reconsider some of the above comments.
* In many "pagan" countries (Rome, for example), there were very strict laws about divorce and marriage (as well as formal marriage ceremonies) and mistresses were not encouraged where there was a formal type of marriage.
* Extramarital sex and cohabitation was common among Christians in areas where preachers visited infrequently (so they couldn't get married easily.)



The gospel spreaders/missionaries saw to it this practice stopped.

Moghul (Islamic) rulers in the 1500's began banning it:
en.wikipedia.org...


Would there be true compassion and mercy?

You might want to delve deeper into ancient literature -- the very ancient manuscript of Ptahotep talks about this as the correct way to behave. Thousands of other examples exist -- in particular, Buddha, who lived some 550 years before Jesus was born.

And the Greeks were famous for teachings on ethics.


It was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanticide.


In some cultures. In others, it was already illegal.


What about Education? Would be way behind! Remember Judeo/Christian tradition certainly put an emphasis on the written word. The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation. Please do a little research here.


Oh dear.

Well, education was probably at its peak in the ancient world in Ancient Greece. If you recall your history, education and the sciences did not flourish under the Christians (remember the Dark Ages) but did well in non-Christian areas. Women never fared well under this system, being forced to follow Paul's instructions on what made a "good wife."

The first women physicians in the US were very cruelly treated by their Christian fellows. Women who got advanced degrees were consdered "unfit" -- and a bias against women scholars still lingers somewhat here in America.


Remember before Madelyn Marie O’hare, children's reading texts emphasized biblical literacy.


It's Madeline Murray O'Hare, and before her, childrens' reading texts did NOT emphasize biblical literacy. I was taught to read back before she appeared on the scene (as was my husband, my parents, etc)... I have some of our old textbooks. No Biblical emphasis. None at all.


This was so prevalent in colonial America, that John Quincy Adams said in the early 1800's that the illiteracy rate was only 4/10th of 1 percent. By comparison, it has been estimated that in America today, 40 million people are functionally illiterate.


JQA (if the quote was accurate) was only counting white male landowners. Women of that time were fairly illiterate (with some exceptions), and so were most apprentices and farmers and slaves. Most of the Native Americans couldn't read or write.


What about the arts? Non-existent!

You mean, like the cave paintings at Lascaux, the rock art around the United States, the songs and stores of the Norse, the lengthy poem cycles of the Irish bards, the sculptures of Greece, Rome, India, China, the elaborate temples and carvings at Ankor Wat, the tombs and statues of the Ancient Egyptians, the elaborate and delicate mosques of the Islamic people? The paintings of the Hindu people? The scrolls and paintings of the Chinese and Japanese?

That's not art?

I would disagree.




What about freedom? Government of the People?

Not Biblically or Christian based. The Greeks had the first Democracy (the US is a Republic which isn't quite as much a "government of the people" as a democracy is -- and the first Republic was Rome, not the US.)

The Constitution is based not on the Bible but on English laws and the constitution of the Iriquois ("pagans".)


Free Enterprise and the "Protestant work ethic?” Nope! We have two chooses…biblical capitalism and evolutionary capitalism.


"Evolutionary capitalism"? Care to define this other than "any capitalism not practiced by people who declare themselves Christian?" Capitalism has always existed throughout the world no matter what the religion.

...and early Christianity practiced a form of communism (communal ownership of things.)



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 11:42 AM
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Well,if Jesus never was born then their might not be so many rich pastors who have made a nice bit of money from this myth and as for the "faithful" well,Im sure they wolud fall prey to other scam artists using reliegion.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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all churches sound like the rev.charles to me.. they dont want to save your soul , just want your money www.liveleak.com... if this message has been a blessing to you dont send any money



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 01:05 PM
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Just wanted to add to my statement:

The original proposition (which I suspect was taken from a number of Christian right wing websites) makes a few assumptions:

* that no other Christian nation other than America ever existed (no mention of the Christian battles in England (and until recently, Ireland), no mention of the Christian concept of the divine right of kings and the abuses of power thereunder, etc), no mention of genocides where priests baptize dying women and children so that they would die Christians, etc.
* that no group of people ever treated its citizens as equals in government and policy making (literally thousands of examples exist, particularly on the tribal level. Chumash Indians on a wide scale were much more democratic.)
* that schools of other religions did not teach literacy (some of them even encouraged reading something other than their scriptures.)
* that deists are Christians (Jefferson censored his personal Bible)

...and finally, not comparing timeframe with timeframe. Yes, women in 21st century America are better treated than women beforetimes. However, if you go back to the 1300's, you'd find that Islamic women had it better and so did many Native American women and Norse women.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by Byrd
 


I was going to do a large write up myself on this topic today (see my earlier reply to someone hehe) but Byrd summed up a lot of what i was going to say already! Darn you Byrd for being so on it!

A couple of addendums I would add would be, in regards to Jesus existing or not, we can all agree that things would be drastically different in the world, for sure.

But what it comes down to is, religion in general, not just christianity, does one thing and one thing only... It either brings out the BEST or the WORST in a person, and their actions can be justified either way, within the scope of their religion.

Christianity, for example, if you follow certain things that Christ spoke in the Bible, can justify doing everything that you can for someone else, regardless of your feelings about them, to help them out, OR completely disregard them if they do not agree with you. You can take that last part a couple of steps further by things that are said elsewhere in the bible, and justify the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Jesus.

As I said, you can justify being the most calm, serene, loving and longsuffering person in the world, or you can justify being the most hateful, bigoted, cruel and evil person in the world, all based on what you find in the bible, and every bit of it would be justified in the eyes of God.

It's all in the perspective you read the scriptures in, and the interpretation you take away from it. Why do you think, if Christianity is truly correct in its ways of thinking, that there are over 34000 DIFFERENT denominations within the Christian church? You can interpret the Bible to say anything at all that you want to say.


As for Jesus, himself, again I understand him as truly being named Yahshua, but irregardless... it is obvious that things were added to what he truly had to say, to benefit those who did the adding.

If you take a look at the basic message he was trying to get across... Love yourself, love your neighbor, and love your God, because you are ALL ONE, that is a beautiful message and I think that a lot of people could benefit from it.

But people have, in time, done what they always have... interfered with the free will of anyone that they could get ahold of. Free will is a precious thing, and no one has a right to ever interfere in yours. I think that Jesus inherently understood that, and taught that, because if you truly love someone unconditionally, you'll never do anything to interfere in their free will.

Just wanted to add those couple things to the discussion. I'm always interested in this subject. I'm an ex-Christian from way back, and Christ and I still hang, I guess you could say lol. I have a much deeper understanding of him, the Creator, and my place in the cosmos, since the day I gave up Christianity.

But that was my free will, and what my free will let me into. Yours may be different, and that is fine for you.. as long as you don't interfere with mine.

And that is, exactly, where most of the problems of religion in general come from. "I have the right answer, and if you don't accept it, i'll do everything I can to force it down your throat. Oh but it's your choice." What?



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


Who has proof there was a "Jesus".



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
I'll toss in my 2 cents' worth, then.


Originally posted by OldThinker
OT asks, “WHAT IF JESUS OF NAZARETH HAD NEVER BEEN BORN? I mean seriously…what would the world we live in look like?”



What about the arts? Non-existent!


You mean, like the cave paintings at Lascaux, the rock art around the United States, the songs and stores of the Norse, the lengthy poem cycles of the Irish bards, the sculptures of Greece, Rome, India, China, the elaborate temples and carvings at Ankor Wat, the tombs and statues of the Ancient Egyptians, the elaborate and delicate mosques of the Islamic people? The paintings of the Hindu people? The scrolls and paintings of the Chinese and Japanese?

That's not art?

I would disagree.



Byrd, thank you for the time you spent here...great point above here...maybe I used a bit too much hyperbole, with this one...

= = =

Another area that I believe Christianity has contributed to..is SCIENCE...

The following is a list for you all to consider....folks who loved Jesus and had a great impact on society...

ANTISEPTIC SURGERY
JOSEPH LISTER (1827-1912)

BACTERIOLOGY
LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)

CALCULUS
ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)

CELESTIAL MECHANICS
JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)

CHEMISTRY
ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)

COMPARATIVE ANATOMY
GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)

COMPUTER SCIENCE
CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)

DIMENSIONAL ANALYSIS
LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)

ELECTRONICS
JOHN AMBROSE FLEMING (1849-1945)

ELECTRODYNAMICS
JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)

ELECTRO-MAGNETICS
MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)

ENERGETICS
LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)

ENTOMOLOGY OF LIVING INSECTS
HENRI FABRE (1823-1915)

FIELD THEORY
MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)

FLUID MECHANICS
GEORGE STOKES (1819-1903)

GALACTIC ASTRONOMY
WILLIAM HERSCHEL (1738-1822)

GAS DYNAMICS
ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
GENETICS
GREGOR MENDEL (1822-1884)

GLACIAL GEOLOGY
LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)

GYNECOLOGY
JAMES SIMPSON (1811-1870)

HYDRAULICS
LEONARDO DA VINCI (1452-1519)

HYDROGRAPHY
MATTHEW MAURY (1806-1873)

HYDROSTATICS
BLAISE PASCAL (1623-1662)

ICHTHYOLOGY
LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)

ISOTOPIC CHEMISTRY
WILLIAM RAMSAY (1852-1916)

MODEL ANALYSIS
LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)

NATURAL HISTORY
JOHN RAY (1627-1705)

NON-EUCLIDEAN GEOMETRY
BERNHARD RIEMANN (1826- 1866)

OCEANOGRAPHY
MATTHEW MAURY (1806-1873)

OPTICAL MINERALOGY
DAVID BREWSTER (1781-1868)

PALEONTOLOGY
JOHN WOODWARD (1665-1728)

PATHOLOGY
RUDOLPH VIRCHOW (1821-1902)

PHYSICAL ASTRONOMY
JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)

REVERSIBLE THERMODYNAMICS
JAMES JOULE (1818-1889)

STATISTICAL THERMODYNAMICS
JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)

STRATIGRAPHY
NICHOLAS STENO (1631-1686)

SYSTEMATIC BIOLOGY
CAROLUS LINNAEUS (1707-1778)

THERMODYNAMICS
LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)

THERMOKINETICS
HUMPHREY DAVY (1778-1829)

VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY
GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by xrayspecs
reply to post by badmedia
 


Who has proof there was a "Jesus".



This may not raise to your level of proof...but to me it's logical...
= = = = = =

“Jesus was a liar!!!!!”

That really is a logical option…please read on…

First of all, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know. Life is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be when I was in my 20/30's. I am a Christian, by that I mean I have chosen to believe that I am imperfect and needed His intervention.

I have come to this conclusion primarily upon LOGIC, not faith. Faith is one of those enigma's in today's vocabulary that has lost its meaning or has been interpreted differently by so many. My journey to this conclusion has a few factors that I will share with the forum/thread.



Point 1 ---- Again before I go on I will try and be LOGIC-based and not bring in a bunch of Christian-eze mumbo jumbo.

Remember Back to the Future and the Delorian (sp?) Imagine if you were Micheal J Fox and someone asked you to go to five (only 5) different time zones/geographical areas and meet one person in each time zone/area and ask them, "please write a book about God, I'll be back in 5 years to collect it."

Five years later you went and picked up the five books. Logically speaking what are the chances those five books would agree? What are the chances those five books would build upon one another? What are the chances you could make any semblance out of them...to live by or the like? Snowballs in your know where, right?

Different people! Different cultures! Difference Time frames! Different Premises! Different World view! etc...

Logically speaking you would have five unconnected books with five different perspectives, right?

Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but 66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story.

Doesn't prove it God's Word yet though...just something that might warrant another look.

Point 2 ---- Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God. Doesn't appear here to be different agendas going on. He said it, His followers said He said it, third parties said He said it and even his enemies said He said it (Sanhedrin, Pharisees, etc)

SO...with all that said...we have only two LOGICAL outcomes. No religious double-talk here) Either you BELIEVE or you REJECT. Really no other options right? If you believe, then to you HE IS LORD. If you REJECT there are really only two options for you.

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

That's the only three logical outcomes...LIAR, LUNATIC of LORD. There is no room for him being a good guy and all, no room for him being a prophet as every other religion on the face of the earth calls him.

Because prophets don't lie and they are not usually in psych wards.

Point 3 ---- Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the Romans excused, at least one of them would have squealed just before their execution right? I would have...

but NO-All these ordinary folks were willing to die for what they saw…



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by Jomina
reply to post by Byrd
 


....And that is, exactly, where most of the problems of religion in general come from. "I have the right answer, and if you don't accept it, i'll do everything I can to force it down your throat. Oh but it's your choice." What?



I agree that is a problem...but not a universal one...most sincere religious people tilt to love, not dogma...

Although...Would you agree that TRUTH is a stubborn thing? 2 and 2 can't be 5 no matter how sincere you add!

So is the teacher pushy to demand 4?



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by fatdad
all churches sound like the rev.charles to me.. they dont want to save your soul , just want your money www.liveleak.com... if this message has been a blessing to you dont send any money


All???? really? got any stats on that? What's the variance? The standard deviation?


btw, your post is both off topic and stated in a childish manner...

You may try again!!

OT



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


well my friend, here' the question you REALLY need to ask....


What IF he was born and all this is true!!! Kinda like the song states..

What IF he was real.. you HAVE TO ASKED yourself this only question..

WHAT if he really did come down to save us from ourselves, the world, devil himself...what IF, everything in the Holy Bible is true, that he WILL return to earth as He left to vanquish all the souls that refuse to release their own will and follow his divine will??

What if.. .......................just ................what ...........if ..........he is real?

slobs .. for there is not one that is good .. not even one.

Joan Osbourne

If God Was One of Us (Lyrics by Joan)


If God had a name, what would it be
And would you call it to his face
If you were faced with him in all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question

And yeah yeah God is great yeah yeah God is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

If God had a face what would it look like
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like heaven and in Jesus and the saints and all the prophets

And yeah yeah god is great yeah yeah god is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
He's trying to make his way home
Back up to heaven all alone
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the pope maybe in Rome

And yeah yeah God is great yeah yeah God is good
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if god was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
Just trying to make his way home
Like a holy rolling stone
Back up to heaven all alone
Just trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the pope maybe in Rome

(end)

*looks at OldThinker with a warm smile* God misses you OldThinker............he wants your conversation, no matter what it maybe like.. release your anger.. it's not God fault....He will be there by your side if you let Him ..



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by Good Wolf
...And BTW I'm a little offended that you claim that America was formed christian. America was the most secular nation in the world. State was separate from Church as it always should be. The founding fathers knew that to have freedom of religion, there needed to be freedom from religion.


America’s early leadership supports my OP…here’s just a few!


"Without Religion this World would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817


The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”


John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! April 18, 1775

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
“July 4th ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” –John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by Komodo
 


?

komodo,

better double check the thread....might want to edit your post...unless I'm missing something...you meant to send that to me?



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by Komodo
 


Pascal's wager is alive and strong in this thread...

however, everyone is moving on the wrong assumption... why are we trying to prove he wasn't born, I think we should be trying to prove he was born.

You can't disprove Russell's Teapot... You can't disprove Jesus's birth...

There is absolutely no evidence of the Jesus of the christian's existing beyond the descriptions written in a book... the earliest account being written approx 100 years after his supposed death...

However, on a side note... Jesus was a very common name in the period in question, much like the common name "Joe" or "Bill"... You may be able to find the name documented many many places, however none actually points to "the christ".






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