Originally posted by Man_Versus_AntiMan
The trouble is I don’t believe principles applied thru idealism work at all. I just don’t trust humanity enough to see it thru, every example
throughout history has ended up worse than the system it was set out to replace. I have zero confidence that anything better will ever come along, and
zero confidence in us as a species.
That is where you are correct in calling me an "idealist." I DO have faith in the species. And, I do have faith that we will eventually figure out
the flaw in the formula and learn to apply it correctly. However, other than that I think I am as realistic as it is possible for a human to be. No
one who knows me personally accuses me of being overly optimistic.
You are correct that so far, every system set up to replace the abusive ones has failed to some degree. However, to say that there has been no
improvement is factually incorrect. We are evolving. Things are better today in the countries that either overthrew the old monarchies, like the US,
or benefited from the reaction of the monarchs in their own country to the overthrow of other monarchs in other countries. Like Britain.
However, I am NOT calling for revolution in the old sense of the word. I do NOT think that there is a need for a bloody fight against the "elite."
We are not yet consolidated on the better way to live that would have to be in place to make such a sacrifice worth the price. However, I do see the
possibility of a better way to live. And, in the meanwhile, I do see a need to check the growth of this disease of "I need MORE" that threatens to
overwhelm humanity as a whole. They cannot do it without us. We dont need to slaughter them, we need to stop going along with the game as laid out
by their rules. We need to stop agreeing that MORE is the answer.
Originally posted by Man_Versus_AntiMan
But at the moment life is good for a lot of us, not great, but we live in the free-est societies in the world, we have enough to eat, we earn enough
to get by, we are relatively unmolestered by government interference. And that’s fine by me.
There are around 800,000,000 people in the world who live on the brink of starvation. Just living at subsistence levels. Now. We are also tearing
through our resources at a rate that is breathtaking. Absolutely breathtakingly horrifying if someone cares to actually look at all the figures.
Topsoil. Fish stocks. Forests. Metals. Fossil fuels. And, popular or not, we ARE experiencing climate change. Despite whether it is our doing or
a natural cycle. It is happening. Now.
At the moment us, here, in the first world living pretty well and being relatively unmolested is not good enough. Thats how it was right before the
stock markets crashed. It was pretty good. At least on the surface. People were seeing fair growth and doing ok. Then, the party came to an end.
Could someone have seen it coming? A lot of people did. It wasnt just crazies predicting this, it was people like Ron Paul, and other less well
known finance aficionados. I was first cued in by a mortgage broker who explained to me a year ago why this was going to be a nightmare. The problem
with some of the "crazies" is that they call the game too early and then when it doesnt happen that week, everyone writes them off. It doesnt mean
they are wrong. It means they are seeing further in the future than the average person wants to consider.
What our future holds is not a mystery. It is not unprecedented. It is a simple repeat of the same cycle that arises from people doing exactly what
you suggest next.
Originally posted by Man_Versus_AntiMan
I see nothing wrong with letting the rich guys get on with what they want, because they’ve always done that, and they know the best method of
keeping themselves secure is stability. They arnt going to apply dictatorship, theve had hundreds of years to do that, why rock the boat? Hitler and
Lenin achieved it within a few years, backed by the very people we’re talking about, so why have they never done it here?
They have not had to. They have come up with a better, less dangerous to themselves, way. That does not mean dictatorship is off the table. It
means they have not needed to take the risk inherent of going down that road to get what they want. We have the illusion of democracy. The illusion
of freedom. The illusion of the American dream. So far, that has been enough. However, all dreams eventually come to an end. Economies based on
"fluff" collapse, but the consequences are real. Particularly when you consider that we have more people and less resources than ever before.
Why should we not let the rich people do what they are doing and hope that their own self interest will save us all? Because it never has before.
That greed, that insatiable need for "more" is not evil genius. It is a form of insanity. The insane elite do not make good choices, they make the
choices that get them more until it literally costs them their lives. Over and over again throughout history you will see a pattern of an elite
rising to power, and then bleeding their people and their environment nearly to death. Generally speaking, the people suffer until it becomes
apparent that they will ALL die if it continues and they rise up and remove the elite. Or, an outside party comes in and takes advantage of the
situation by promising a better life under THEIR rule if only the people back them. And it is a better life. Initially. But the madness continues,
and over time, the cycle repeats. The bigger the system, the longer in terms of years it takes the pattern to play out, but it always plays out.
They always overreach, and it always brings about their demise.
We have two choices. We can start to refuse, peacefully, to play the insane game of "endless more" in a finite system, and we can figure out a way
to live cooperatively, which means NOT letting the insane run the world any longer. (And which does not mean it has to be communistic, cooperation is
the human rule not the exception) OR we can just stand idly by and wait for a repeat of the expansion, collapse, revolution cycle. I am not
advocating revolution. Not a physical one any way. I would loathe to see something like that happen. I cannot imagine any sane human wanting to see
the kind of slaughter a revolution in todays first world would entail. I am advocating an
evolution, where we stop the merry go round before
the collapse that follows over-ambitious expansion.
Originally posted by Man_Versus_AntiMan
Its a scenario that could be abused, but probably wont be.
It is a scenario that WILL be abused because in the time when it is abused, the "elite" will have no other choice. They will have let the whole
thing get so bad in their fevered pursuit of more, (just like they did with this economic collapse) that desperate times will call for desperate
measures. Just like they have every other time in the past. The more poverty stricken and desperate your people get, the hungrier, the more fearful,
the more force you must use to ensure they cannot turn against you.
I differ from many conspiracy theorists in that I do not think it has ever been their goal to have to impose dictatorship. Dictatorship has a well
known and ugly end. I think they much preferred this peaceful "illusion of freedom" scenario where we go willingly to be fleeced. I think
dictatorship is a last resort that they are willing to use if they have to, and I think their own insanity will drive us to the point where it is
their only option. I think there are those in power who already see this writing on the wall, and know that the time will come when they have no
choice.