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Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Your right but your wrong also. she can never become a U.S. Citizen again. But Obama Could become a naturalized Citizen when he turned 18. If he moved back to the U.S. took the oath of allegence before the attorny general or an immigration judge. which we know he moved back to the U.s. Before the age of 18. because his mother sent him back to Hawaii when he was 10.
Obama didn't need a passport to enter Indonesia. remember Lolo returned to Indonesia before Obama and his mother moved to Indonesia. By the time Obama arrived in Indonesia Lolo had already claimed him as his son making him a citizen, and had enrolled him in school there.
Its wasn't that hard to get a social security card back then. remember Obama already had a certificate of live birth with the name barrack Obama on it.
But that Certificate was abtained by fraud. Obama's mother went to Kenya to visit Barrack Sr. when she tried to return to the U.S. the airline told her they wouldn't allow her to fly because she was to far along in her pregnancy. (airlines don't like it when moms give birth on their planes) so after he was born she brought Obama to Hawaii and filed a late registration for a certificate of live birth.
If Obama wasn't born in Kenya then why does his grandmother, half brother and sister say they were in the hospital room in Kenya when he was born? Why would they "lie" and say he was born in Kenya if he was Born in Hawaii?
If Obama was born in Hawaii then why can't he and his sister keep which hospital he was born in straight. he says one hospital in his book. in an interview she says another. then a few years later when she is interviewed again she says it was the hospital that Obama Says in his book.
YOU want to elect this guy to be POTUS seriously? he is not a U.S. Citizen, he has pulled the wool over some many peoples eyes. be has committed fraud. his mother is guilty of fraud as well.
Oh well your entitled to your vote just as i'm entitled to mine. And at least i can research a candidates eligibility to run or not.
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States
Originally posted by Areal51
reply to post by redhatty
The Constitution presents a choice.
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States
No. I'm not wrong. You said that with Ms. Dunham renouncing her US citizenship, she would "by default" do the same for Obama. That is what is wrong, not what I explained based on that.
As for Obama becoming naturalized, well that would be convenient, wouldn't it? If he is a naturalized citizen, how hard is it to find out?
Would US Immigration keep silent amidst these allegations if Obama were anything but a citizen of the US? Doesn't US Immigration and Customs have laws to enforce? Cases to investigate?
What country allows entry without a passport? Even babies need passports. That's what's so outrageous about the Kenya birth angle. Baby Obama's birth would have had to be registered in Kenya in order for the baby to get a Kenyan passport to enter the United States. If there was a US consulate for Nairobi at the time, maybe Ms. Dunham could have obtained a US passport for baby Obama; I don't know for sure. But whichever the case, Ms Dunham would not have been allowed to enter the US without a Kenyan or US passport for the new baby.
And there is no rational reason why any Hawaiian hospital would commit fraud on her behalf by registering a birth that really didn't happen there. It's such an inane idea.
And young Obama wouldn't have been able to leave the US for Indonesia without a US passport either.
but it would have been invalidated by a new Indonesian birth certificate. Proof of birth would have been required; no doubt the original birth certificate would have been confiscated by Indonesian officials and invalidated. Or, a new Hawaiian birth certificate bearing the name "Barry Soetoro" would have been issued, and the old one invalidated by Hawaiian officials. Either way the original would have been invalidated.
Like I said, it's a far stretch to implicate a hospital with registering a birth that did not take place there. What would the hospital gain for doing such a thing. Or more ludicrous, do you really think that the Hawaiian Dept. of Health actually took part in fraud on baby Obama's behalf?
Have you forgotten that people make mistakes? His half-sister Maya is originally from Indonesia. She's forgiven for not knowing her Hawaiian hospitals well.
Yet another personal attack. How predictable. Didn't matter that I began by showing you respect, did it? Typical behavior of some ATS members. Whatever.
But the record shows that I have put PLENTY research in. FYI, not that it would matter to you, but this thread is a spin-off of another. Again, whatever. I defer to the judge, yet call Berg's claims ludicrous.
Originally posted by Sublime620
Just want to point out, since no one else has:
How sad is it that it has come to this. Even if there is some technicality that his mother denounced her citizenship and Obama didn't reapply, which he may or may not have known about... it's a technicality.
It has nothing to do with his credentials. It has nothing to do with him being an outside thread (one of the main reasons this rule was put into place). It's completely irrelevant.
It's desperate. It's turned into trying to win on a technicality.
[edit on 22-10-2008 by Sublime620]
Even if there is some technicality that his mother denounced her citizenship and Obama didn't reapply, which he may or may not have known about... it's a technicality.
Originally posted by Mercenary2007Yes you are wrong. You really need to go read some U.S. Code. Since he was a minor child when his mother renounced her Citizenship he would be allowed on his 18th Birthday to apply for u.s. citizenship.
And how often do you see a customs official investigating a case away from the border or a point of entry (ie international airport?) how many people enter the U.S. with tourist and student visas and don't leave? do you see the INS busting down their doors to deport them?
Back then not every country required a passport to enter a country.
there is a Kenyan Birth Certificate! The Name on the certificate is Barrack H. Obama Jr. And No babies did not need a passport until recently. Again look at the laws that we're in effect at the time not now. again you have to go to a library because those laws are not online.
who said the hospital committed the fraud i said his mother. the parent can file the late registration of birth.
i was never asked to see my passport by U.S. Customs when i left the U.S. you do not need to show your passport to leave the U.S.
Lolo was already in Indonesia he already had the documents waiting for when obama and his mother came to Indonesia.
wrong again. an Indonesian birth certificate. with the name Barry Soetoro would have been issued. Since Lolo Acknolweged him as his son he would not need to show a Hawaiian birth certificate according to Indonesian law! All lolo had to do was fill out a gov't form in Indonesia with Barry Soetoro as the name, Barracks' Birthdate, and say where he was born.
wrong yet again. she also has a certificate of live birthfrom Hawaii! and these interviews were done in the last few years so she's had awhile to get the story straight.
en.wikipedia.org...
Born Maya Kassandra Soetoro
August 15, 1970 (1970-08-15) (age 38)
Jakarta, Indonesia
i guess calling you out on your obvious lack of research and telling you, you have your vote and i have mine you can spin that as a personal attack. whats funny is anytime someone calls out an obama supporter its a personal attack even if what the person states is facts not personal attacks.
And if the suit was frivolous then why hasn't the Judge ruled on the motion to dismiss. Could it be Berg does have standing and the Judge is researching the laws that were on the books in 1961?
i don't know why i bother debating the facts with obama supporters. they can't see the forest for the trees.
First off, leave your partisan BS out of it. It's clear that you are anti-Obama, and that you assume anybody who is vetting the case and doesn't agree with you is pro-Obama. It's just some boring BS that stinks to hell that you should leave out of the discussion.
Maya Soetoro-Ng
Born 1970
Honolulu, Hawaii
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ericl (Talk | contribs) at 21:22, 18 March 2008. It may differ significantly from the current revision.
If you know the mind of a judge, Berg should have had you take his case. What goes through the mind of a district court judge? Do tell.
Anyway, my thinking is that the judge doesn't want to issue a ruling one way or the either that might influence the election. So he's letting the clock run out.
You said, "Obama didn't have to he renounced his citizenship by default he did when his mother did." That is what you said, and it is untrue. Under US Code, there is no such thing as a "default renunciation of citizenship". And that is what I addressed; the fact that renounced citizenships are irrevocable, AND that a parent could not renounce the citizenship of a minor.
You did say, "The laws at the time say that citizenship follows the custodial parent." But that conclusion didn't mean anything since your premise was false!
His certificate of birth is authentic, his been under FBI/CIA scope for the two years that his been running just like everybody
The location of his birth is in controversy as witnesses have reported that Obama's mother (Ann Dunham hereinafter "Dunham") left Hawaii and went to Kenya, Africa in search of the baby's biological father, Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., only to discover that Obama, Sr. was married and had many children in Kenya from this marriage. And, a birth certificate for this illegitimate conception placed on the internet campaign sites for Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. has been investigated by third and deemed a forgery.
Further, it is alleged that Defendant's Mother (Dunham) placed demands upon Obama, Sr. to divorce his then current Kenyan wife and marry Dunham prior to the immediate arrival of the son that she and Obama, Sr. had conceived. If there was a "marriage' between Obama, Sr. and Dunham it was polygamous as Obama, Sr. was already married in Kenya, Africa. Thus, Defendant was born illegitimately location unknown.
Shortly thereafter, it is alleged that Dunham left Kenya, travelled back to Hawaii and registered her newborn son, Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. as born in Hawaii. This island state had recently been admitted into the United States, but it allowed after the fact late registration birth certifications unlike any continental US state.
When her son(the Defendant) was five years of age, Dunham married LaID Soetoro, a citizen of Jakarta, Indonesia, a practicing Muslim whom
she meet at the University in Hawaii, and the Defendant along with his mother moved to Jakarta, Indonesia in late 1967, Upon their arrival, Defendant was legally declared as the step-son of his mother's new husband (Soetoro) and, more importantly, a citizen of Indonesia.
Barry Soetoro (formerly Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.) enrolled on January 1, 1968 in the Franciscan Assisi Primary School in Jakarta, Indonesia with serial number 203 and he sat in class 1B with the school records indicating that both he and his mother had declared Barry Soetoro (Defendant) as a citizen of Indonesia. These records are factual and a matter of public record.
And, more importantly, both Defendant and his mother listed himself as a citizen of Indonesia, not the United States when given the opportunity to do so, in lieu of making a legal and public renunciation formerly declaring her son, the Defendant, as a citizen of Indonesia.
.....
Mrs. Soetoro, her son Barry, and her daughter, Maya resided as a legal
residents of and self-declared citizens of Jakarta, Indonesia from late
1967 for + or -7-10 years while Mrs. Soetoro remained legally married
to Barry's step-father, Lolo 5oetoro. The parties divorced 12 years later
in 1980. When Barry and Mrs. Soetoro re-entered the US they did so
under old US passports to live in Hawaii for a brief period of time.
Dunham later returned to Indonesia where she remained her entire life
or travelled and worked in foreign countries, not in the United States.
Originally posted by Mercenary2007
reply to post by Areal51
the last time i left the U.S. was in 2004. at no time did i have to show a passport to leave the country. and when i returned because i am a U.S. Citizen all i had to show was my State issued Drivers license.
I have Kids and also took them with me. i did not have to show anything for them, not even a birth certificate. it wasn't until recently they changed the rules and required every one U.S. Citizens include to show a passport to re enter the U.S. AGAIN YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LAWS ON THE BOOKS AT THE TIME NOT THE LAWS OF TODAY. but if you would have done any research of your own you would know that! All your info comes from Pro Obama Blogs and his website. thats ok if you don't want to admit it we all know the real truth.
Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Well ain't that the kettle calling the pot black. Your assuming i'm a republican and support McCain. maybe you would be interested to know i'm not a repub. i have no political affiliation! The Simple fact is questions have been raised about the mans eligiblity to run for office. and until they are answered no one will know if they are true or false.
the last time i left the U.S. was in 2004. at no time did i have to show a passport to leave the country. and when i returned because i am a U.S. Citizen all i had to show was my State issued Drivers license.
I have Kids and also took them with me...
Maya Soetoro-Ng
Born 1970
Honolulu, Hawaii
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ericl (Talk | contribs) at 21:22, 18 March 2008. It may differ significantly from the current revision.
original WIKI
Seems her birth place had been editted! so can you explain why she has a certificate of live birth in HAWAII?
a good reason why in cases like these you shouldn't use WIKI because anyone can edit the info.
en.wikipedia.org...
After her divorce, Dunham married Lolo Soetoro, and the family moved to Soetoro's home country of Indonesia in 1967, where Obama attended local schools in Jakarta until he was ten years old. He then returned to Honolulu to live with his maternal grandparents while attending Punahou School from the fifth grade in 1971 until his graduation from high school in 1979. Obama's mother returned to Hawaii in 1972 for several years and then back to Indonesia to complete fieldwork for her doctoral dissertation.
Page 47
Sometimes I would overhear him and my mother arguing in their bedroom, usually about her refusal to attend his company dinner parties, where American businessmen from Texas and Louisiana would slap Lolo’s back and boast about the palms they had greased to obtain the new offshore drilling rights, while their wives complained to my mother about the quality of Indonesian help. He would ask her how it would look for him to go alone, and remind her that these were her own people, and my mother’s voice would rise to almost a shout.
They are not my people.
Such arguments were rare, though; my mother and Lolo would remain cordial through the birth of my sister, Maya, through the separation and eventual divorce...
Page 50
I looked to the front of the line, where a Chinese family seemed to be having some problems with the customs officials. They had been a lively bunch during the flight from Hong Kong, the father taking off his shoes and padding up and down the aisles, the children clambering over seats, the mother and grandmother hoarding pillows and blankets and chattering endlessly to one another. Now the family was standing absolutely still, trying to will themselves invisible, their eyes silently following the hands that riffled through their passports and luggage with a menacing calm. The father reminded me of Lolo somehow, and I looked down at the wooden mask I was carrying in my hand. It was a gift from the Indonesian copilot, a friend of my mother’s who had led me away as she and Lolo and my new sister, Maya, stood by at the gate.
Page 51
The new arrangement hadn’t sounded so bad when my mother first explained it to me. It was time for me to attend an American school, she had said; I’d run through all the lessons of my correspondence course. She said that she and Maya would be joining me in Hawaii very soon-a year, tops-and that she’d try to make it there for Christmas.
Page 62
She had separated from Lolo and returned to Hawaii to pursue a master’s degree in anthropology shortly after my own arrival. For three years I lived with her and Maya in a small apartment a block away from Punahou, my mother’s student grants supporting the three of us.
en.wikipedia.org...
Maya Soetoro-Ng
Born 1970
Jakarta, Indonesia
Residence Honolulu, Hawaii
Occupation Schoolteacher
Parents Lolo Soetoro and Ann Dunham
this just goes to show how little you know about the role of a judge. Yes he gets briefs from both side stating their sides and the list case law and law codes to support their positions BUt the Judge must also Look at the laws for himself to determine which side is right!
Again showing your lack of understanding in how the courts work. There is no clock to run out. if the Judge doesn't rule before the election he can rule after the election. the only way this Suit will go away is if Berg withdrawls the suit, the judge rules in favor of Obama to dismiss or he hears the case and rules for or against the suit.
Since you say you have done all this research have you looked at the indonesian laws? i'm guessing you haven't. go do your homework my friend.
again your looking at the U.S. that is in effect today not the code that was in effect in 1961. quit trying to spin my answers to use them against me! the law on the books in 1961 says Citizenship follows the custodial parent. and if the custodial parent renounces her citizenship and became a citizen of Indonesia then Obama became a citizen of indonesia. also with Lolo acknlowdeging Obama as his son also made Obama a citizen of indonesia!
Since you won't even look at the laws that were in effect in 1961, the very same laws a judge would have to use to determine Obama's eligiblity it is pointless to have a discussion with you.