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Obama (Barry Soetoro)Has Duel Citizenship?

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posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Your right but your wrong also. she can never become a U.S. Citizen again. But Obama Could become a naturalized Citizen when he turned 18. If he moved back to the U.S. took the oath of allegence before the attorny general or an immigration judge. which we know he moved back to the U.s. Before the age of 18. because his mother sent him back to Hawaii when he was 10.


No. I'm not wrong. You said that with Ms. Dunham renouncing her US citizenship, she would "by default" do the same for Obama. That is what is wrong, not what I explained based on that.

As for Obama becoming naturalized, well that would be convenient, wouldn't it? If he is a naturalized citizen, how hard is it to find out?

Would US Immigration keep silent amidst these allegations if Obama were anything but a citizen of the US? Doesn't US Immigration and Customs have laws to enforce? Cases to investigate? It doesn't need Berg to file a lawsuit in order to launch its own investigations -- ESPECIALLY for someone questionable running for POTUS!

The more questions one asks, the more ridiculous this case turns out to be.


Obama didn't need a passport to enter Indonesia. remember Lolo returned to Indonesia before Obama and his mother moved to Indonesia. By the time Obama arrived in Indonesia Lolo had already claimed him as his son making him a citizen, and had enrolled him in school there.


What country allows entry without a passport? Even babies need passports. That's what's so outrageous about the Kenya birth angle. Baby Obama's birth would have had to be registered in Kenya in order for the baby to get a Kenyan passport to enter the United States. If there was a US consulate for Nairobi at the time, maybe Ms. Dunham could have obtained a US passport for baby Obama; I don't know for sure. But whichever the case, Ms Dunham would not have been allowed to enter the US without a Kenyan or US passport for the new baby.

And there is no rational reason why any Hawaiian hospital would commit fraud on her behalf by registering a birth that really didn't happen there. It's such an inane idea.

And young Obama wouldn't have been able to leave the US for Indonesia without a US passport either.

Like I respectfully said already, you have more homework to do.


Its wasn't that hard to get a social security card back then. remember Obama already had a certificate of live birth with the name barrack Obama on it.


Yes, but it would have been invalidated by a new Indonesian birth certificate. Proof of birth would have been required; no doubt the original birth certificate would have been confiscated by Indonesian officials and invalidated. Or, a new Hawaiian birth certificate bearing the name "Barry Soetoro" would have been issued, and the old one invalidated by Hawaiian officials. Either way the original would have been invalidated.


But that Certificate was abtained by fraud. Obama's mother went to Kenya to visit Barrack Sr. when she tried to return to the U.S. the airline told her they wouldn't allow her to fly because she was to far along in her pregnancy. (airlines don't like it when moms give birth on their planes) so after he was born she brought Obama to Hawaii and filed a late registration for a certificate of live birth.


Like I said, it's a far stretch to implicate a hospital with registering a birth that did not take place there. What would the hospital gain for doing such a thing. Or more ludicrous, do you really think that the Hawaiian Dept. of Health actually took part in fraud on baby Obama's behalf?


If Obama wasn't born in Kenya then why does his grandmother, half brother and sister say they were in the hospital room in Kenya when he was born? Why would they "lie" and say he was born in Kenya if he was Born in Hawaii?


Those comments have not been verified or sourced. Apparently they first appeared on a blog. Not even Berg has a clue where those comments originated. But for some reason he uses them anyway in his complaint. Not exactly smart, and definitely has the chance of garnering sanctions by a judge on the grounds that they are frivolous.


If Obama was born in Hawaii then why can't he and his sister keep which hospital he was born in straight. he says one hospital in his book. in an interview she says another. then a few years later when she is interviewed again she says it was the hospital that Obama Says in his book.


Have you forgotten that people make mistakes? His half-sister Maya is originally from Indonesia. She's forgiven for not knowing her Hawaiian hospitals well.


YOU want to elect this guy to be POTUS seriously? he is not a U.S. Citizen, he has pulled the wool over some many peoples eyes. be has committed fraud. his mother is guilty of fraud as well.


You sound like Berg. Unproven premises backed by necessarily false conclusions. Whatever, if you cannot have a decent discussion about FACTS.


Oh well your entitled to your vote just as i'm entitled to mine. And at least i can research a candidates eligibility to run or not.


Yet another personal attack. How predictable. Didn't matter that I began by showing you respect, did it? Typical behavior of some ATS members. Whatever.

But the record shows that I have put PLENTY research in. FYI, not that it would matter to you, but this thread is a spin-off of another. Again, whatever. I defer to the judge, yet call Berg's claims ludicrous.




posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 02:19 AM
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reply to post by redhatty
 


i agree with you. these 2 have created one hell of a mess.

the Constitution tried defining natural born but the Congress has changed the meaning of natural born everytime the amend immigration law.

We'll get to see what the SCOTUS decides on Obama. If the Judge rules in favor of Obama Berg will appeal to the SCOTUS skipping the Federal appeals court because of the timming of the decission.

If The judge rules Obama is not eligible he will appeal to the SCOTUS.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 02:21 AM
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reply to post by redhatty
 


The Constitution presents a choice.


No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States

en.wikipedia.org...:_Qualifications_for_office

The 14th Amendment also comes into play with military installations located in foreign nations and foreign territories. It allows jurisdiction to come into play. Where a US military installation fall outside of the jurisdiction of the United States and within the jurisdiction of foreign powers.

Nonetheless, as you said, "natural born citizen" is not defined under US CODE. I've looked, it doesn't exist. But there is plenty definition of nationals, citizens, and naturalized citizens.

John McCain appears to be a citizen under law. That is, a statutory citizen. For all intents an purposes, he's a citizen. Just not defined as natural-born, and neither is he naturalized. Though he might be. He hasn't had to prove it in court. Something I've been saying for days now. All of McCain's lawsuits that challenged his eligibility were dismissed on the grounds that the plaintiffs could not show an INJURY IN FACT. And in each of those cases McCain's defense filed Motions to Defense on the grounds that the plaintiff failed to show standing. Obviously those Motions were granted to the defense, and the plaintiffs were denied relief.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 02:42 AM
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Originally posted by Areal51
reply to post by redhatty
 


The Constitution presents a choice.


No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States



I think, and I may be wrong, but I think that the "choice" only applied to those living at the time the Constitution was adopted. Makes logical sense since there were many in government who were born in England.

Otherwise, we still have the potential for a crisis in regards to "natural-born"

I for one, am not looking forward to the SCOTUS deciding who our president is yet again



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 03:08 AM
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reply to post by Areal51
 



No. I'm not wrong. You said that with Ms. Dunham renouncing her US citizenship, she would "by default" do the same for Obama. That is what is wrong, not what I explained based on that.


Yes you are wrong. You really need to go read some U.S. Code. Since he was a minor child when his mother renounced her Citizenship he would be allowed on his 18th Birthday to apply for u.s. citizenship.



As for Obama becoming naturalized, well that would be convenient, wouldn't it? If he is a naturalized citizen, how hard is it to find out?

Yes it would be convenient. that would automatically make him ineligible to run For POTUS and put an end to this BS.


Would US Immigration keep silent amidst these allegations if Obama were anything but a citizen of the US? Doesn't US Immigration and Customs have laws to enforce? Cases to investigate?


And how often do you see a customs official investigating a case away from the border or a point of entry (ie international airport?) how many people enter the U.S. with tourist and student visas and don't leave? do you see the INS busting down their doors to deport them?


What country allows entry without a passport? Even babies need passports. That's what's so outrageous about the Kenya birth angle. Baby Obama's birth would have had to be registered in Kenya in order for the baby to get a Kenyan passport to enter the United States. If there was a US consulate for Nairobi at the time, maybe Ms. Dunham could have obtained a US passport for baby Obama; I don't know for sure. But whichever the case, Ms Dunham would not have been allowed to enter the US without a Kenyan or US passport for the new baby.

And there is no rational reason why any Hawaiian hospital would commit fraud on her behalf by registering a birth that really didn't happen there. It's such an inane idea.

And young Obama wouldn't have been able to leave the US for Indonesia without a US passport either.


Back then not every country required a passport to enter a country.
there is a Kenyan Birth Certificate! The Name on the certificate is Barrack H. Obama Jr. And No babies did not need a passport until recently. Again look at the laws that we're in effect at the time not now. again you have to go to a library because those laws are not online.

who said the hospital committed the fraud i said his mother. the parent can file the late registration of birth.

i was never asked to see my passport by U.S. Customs when i left the U.S. you do not need to show your passport to leave the U.S.

Lolo was already in Indonesia he already had the documents waiting for when obama and his mother came to Indonesia.


but it would have been invalidated by a new Indonesian birth certificate. Proof of birth would have been required; no doubt the original birth certificate would have been confiscated by Indonesian officials and invalidated. Or, a new Hawaiian birth certificate bearing the name "Barry Soetoro" would have been issued, and the old one invalidated by Hawaiian officials. Either way the original would have been invalidated.


wrong again. an Indonesian birth certificate. with the name Barry Soetoro would have been issued. Since Lolo Acknolweged him as his son he would not need to show a Hawaiian birth certificate according to Indonesian law! All lolo had to do was fill out a gov't form in Indonesia with Barry Soetoro as the name, Barracks' Birthdate, and say where he was born.


Like I said, it's a far stretch to implicate a hospital with registering a birth that did not take place there. What would the hospital gain for doing such a thing. Or more ludicrous, do you really think that the Hawaiian Dept. of Health actually took part in fraud on baby Obama's behalf?


again i never said the hospital commited the fraud. and unless there is a report of fraud a state does not investigate a birth.


Have you forgotten that people make mistakes? His half-sister Maya is originally from Indonesia. She's forgiven for not knowing her Hawaiian hospitals well.


wrong yet again. she also has a certificate of live birthfrom Hawaii! and these interviews were done in the last few years so she's had awhile to get the story straight.


Yet another personal attack. How predictable. Didn't matter that I began by showing you respect, did it? Typical behavior of some ATS members. Whatever.

But the record shows that I have put PLENTY research in. FYI, not that it would matter to you, but this thread is a spin-off of another. Again, whatever. I defer to the judge, yet call Berg's claims ludicrous.


Personal attack???? i guess calling you out on your obvious lack of research and telling you, you have your vote and i have mine you can spin that as a personal attack. whats funny is anytime someone calls out an obama supporter its a personal attack even if what the person states is facts not personal attacks.

And if the suit was frivolous then why hasn't the Judge ruled on the motion to dismiss. Could it be Berg does have standing and the Judge is researching the laws that were on the books in 1961?

i don't know why i bother debating the facts with obama supporters. they can't see the forest for the trees.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
the "choice" only applied to those living at the time the Constitution was adopted. at the time of the adoption of the constitution there wasn't any natural born citizens of the United States.

[edit on 10/22/2008 by Mercenary2007]



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 06:48 AM
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Question: What in the world are you guys going to talk about after November 4? I'm not so much interested in the politics as the psychology of it now. Is this going to be another 8 years of embittered right-wingers shaking their fists at fate and fervently thumbing their Bibles for a prophesy that a big-eared tyrant would meet his demise? Clinton redoux?
Maybe with national healthcare there will be enough psychiatric benefits for all you guys to get back on your meds.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 10:57 AM
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Just want to point out, since no one else has:

How sad is it that it has come to this. Even if there is some technicality that his mother renounced her citizenship and Obama didn't reapply, which he may or may not have known about... it's a technicality.

It has nothing to do with his credentials. It has nothing to do with him being an outside threat (one of the main reasons this rule was put into place). It's completely irrelevant.

It's desperate. It's turned into trying to win on a technicality.

[edit on 22-10-2008 by Sublime620]



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by Sublime620
Just want to point out, since no one else has:

How sad is it that it has come to this. Even if there is some technicality that his mother denounced her citizenship and Obama didn't reapply, which he may or may not have known about... it's a technicality.

It has nothing to do with his credentials. It has nothing to do with him being an outside thread (one of the main reasons this rule was put into place). It's completely irrelevant.

It's desperate. It's turned into trying to win on a technicality.

[edit on 22-10-2008 by Sublime620]


Was not Obama one of the top students at Harvard Law School? And did he not teach Constitutuional law?



Even if there is some technicality that his mother denounced her citizenship and Obama didn't reapply, which he may or may not have known about... it's a technicality.


I have little doubt that Obama would not have known.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by Mercenary2007
 

 


First off, leave your partisan BS out of it. It's clear that you are anti-Obama, and that you assume anybody who is vetting the case and doesn't agree with you is pro-Obama. It's just some boring BS that stinks to hell that you should leave out of the discussion.



Originally posted by Mercenary2007Yes you are wrong. You really need to go read some U.S. Code. Since he was a minor child when his mother renounced her Citizenship he would be allowed on his 18th Birthday to apply for u.s. citizenship.


You said, "Obama didn't have to he renounced his citizenship by default he did when his mother did." That is what you said, and it is untrue. Under US Code, there is no such thing as a "default renunciation of citizenship". And that is what I addressed; the fact that renounced citizenships are irrevocable, AND that a parent could not renounce the citizenship of a minor.

You did say, "The laws at the time say that citizenship follows the custodial parent." But that conclusion didn't mean anything since your premise was false!

You then turned it into an argument about naturalized citizenship, when in fact that's not the point that you originally made. I did not address naturalization. I know that Obama could have become naturalized. Not least because I knew that his mother could not have renounced his US citizenship, as you said. And I've expressed that and supported it by referencing the appropriate law, long before you came on board kicking and screaming.


And how often do you see a customs official investigating a case away from the border or a point of entry (ie international airport?) how many people enter the U.S. with tourist and student visas and don't leave? do you see the INS busting down their doors to deport them?


As far as I know, on the matter of Obama's immigration status, nobody has contacted US Attorney General, Michael B. Mukasey. Nobody has contacted ICE. Nobody has contacted Secretary of Homeland Security, Michael B. Chertoff. Nobody has contacted Illinois State Attorney General, Lisa Madigan.

Do not all or some of the named individuals have jurisdiction over at least the matter of Obama's immigration status?

If Obama is guilty of the crimes that Berg alleges, why is Berg not demanding that Obama be arrested? Or taken into custody? Or questioned by the appropriate authorities? Wouldn't that simply preempt Berg's frivolous lawsuit and lay the matter to rest once and for all?

Is the primary issue Obama's immigration status or is it the fact that he is running for POTUS? To my mind, dealing with his immigration status would take care of the POTUS eligibility issue.

Berg casually mentions the Dept. of Justice, but has Berg contacted the Dept of Justice on matters at the heart of his claims? I haven't heard evidence of it. And knowing Berg, he would have trumpeted it the masses, if he had.


Back then not every country required a passport to enter a country.
there is a Kenyan Birth Certificate! The Name on the certificate is Barrack H. Obama Jr. And No babies did not need a passport until recently. Again look at the laws that we're in effect at the time not now. again you have to go to a library because those laws are not online.


How are you sure? You happen to work in a law library? Regardless of that, how are you sure about the process that Obama's mother encountered when she returned to the United States? If she were asked to show proof that the baby was hers, how did she do it?

Also, I have not seen a Kenyan birth certificate in Obama's name. There is a Canadian birth certificate hoax online that says Obama was born on August 23, 1961; it's supposedly tied to Kenya's status as British colony at the time of Obama's birth. Also, curiously, Berg cites it in his lawsuit.
Anyway, I've seen a blank Kenyan birth certificate in an anti-Obama video. But I have not seen a copy of the real deal. Please, share with us -- if you can.


who said the hospital committed the fraud i said his mother. the parent can file the late registration of birth.

i was never asked to see my passport by U.S. Customs when i left the U.S. you do not need to show your passport to leave the U.S.

Lolo was already in Indonesia he already had the documents waiting for when obama and his mother came to Indonesia.


Name those who would have had to be complicit in the fraud that you accuse Ms. Dunham of perpetrating? She couldn't have committed it all by herself without official references. No hospital? No doctor? No midwife? No witnesses? Obama's grandfather was in the military, do you think he would have lied on behalf of his daughter, thereby risking his pension? They knew at the time baby Obama was going to run for president, and that naturalized citizenship just wouldn't do?

Your experience at the border is your own. There are other people who have had different experiences. Custom officials can demand passports from travelers entering or leaving the US. If asked, what would Ms. Dunham have used in order for her child to gain entrance into the United States?


wrong again. an Indonesian birth certificate. with the name Barry Soetoro would have been issued. Since Lolo Acknolweged him as his son he would not need to show a Hawaiian birth certificate according to Indonesian law! All lolo had to do was fill out a gov't form in Indonesia with Barry Soetoro as the name, Barracks' Birthdate, and say where he was born.


So, according to Indonesian law, an Indonesian citizen can claim any child without proof that the child is who the citizen says the child is?

How do you know what you assert? Please cite the official Indonesian laws and procedures that you speak of.

How are you certain that Indonesian laws were observed by Lolo Soetoro? A school document is one thing, and highly circumstantial. What supports the school registration? How do we know that school officials observed Indonesian laws? Are there any other documents that would be of a binding nature like an Indonesian passport, birth certificate, Oath of Allegiance, or official acknowledgment that supports the school registration form?

Why is there a line crossing out the entire page of the school registration form?

Why did Ms. Dunham return Obama to the United States in 1971?


wrong yet again. she also has a certificate of live birthfrom Hawaii! and these interviews were done in the last few years so she's had awhile to get the story straight.


Unless Wikipedia is wrong, you're wrong. See the following:


Born Maya Kassandra Soetoro
August 15, 1970 (1970-08-15) (age 38)
Jakarta, Indonesia
en.wikipedia.org...


i guess calling you out on your obvious lack of research and telling you, you have your vote and i have mine you can spin that as a personal attack. whats funny is anytime someone calls out an obama supporter its a personal attack even if what the person states is facts not personal attacks.

And if the suit was frivolous then why hasn't the Judge ruled on the motion to dismiss. Could it be Berg does have standing and the Judge is researching the laws that were on the books in 1961?

i don't know why i bother debating the facts with obama supporters. they can't see the forest for the trees.


Not. Yet more boring condescension. Whatever.

If you know the mind of a judge, Berg should have had you take his case. What goes through the mind of a district court judge? Do tell.

Back up your assertions! Provide fact and not Berg rehash.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by Sublime620
 
You are right on the money!!! He was a child. This sounds like the press doing their 'nit picking" and "gotcha!"




posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by Sublime620
 


My thinking over the past couple of days has been exactly that. That Berg is pursuing a technicality. The evidence he uses is supportive of that claim. He uses everything he has found on the Internet in his claim. Unsubstantiated rumors. A hoaxed birth certificate. And other things that simply support the story that he wants to tell, and be granted relief on.

Anyway, my thinking is that the judge doesn't want to issue a ruling one way or the either that might influence the election. So he's letting the clock run out.

We all have to await his decision. But precedent favors the case getting dismissed on Berg not meeting standing.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by MissysWorld
 


Right, because you knew what your mom was doing when you were 4 months old. If he was born in Hawaii, and her mom did something that took his citizenship away when he was less than 5, it is more than probable he had no idea.

I don't know what happened, and neither do you. All I know is that people are now trying to attack him on a technicality. You're not worried that he's some foreign spy coming in to ruin the fabric of our democracy. You're just worried that your candidate is going to lose.

That's what this entire thread is about.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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Obama was born in america and he is perfectly within legal grounds to become president of these United states. His certificate of birth is authentic, his been under FBI/CIA scope for the two years that his been running just like everybody and considering that we live under a republican government at the moment, where you have McCain Palin campaign workers constantly searching through the mans records, Im pritty darn sure it has been concluded that the man is an american born citizen.

To further expose this subject rightwingers and those alike who prefer bring it up there is a constant shifting over this story of Obamas citizenship status:

-First off the story from members here and out was that Obama was born in Kenya.

-Second this story shifted to the fact that even though he was born in Hawaii, under Kenyan consitution as somebody claimed, he had automatic kenyan citizenship, so that would be duel citizenship. Yet this was found to be false from the Kenyan constitution.

-Thirdly another story come out that he was actually born in Hawaii but then later gained citizenship in Indonesia and gave up his american citizenship.

Of all these changes to the story, the evidence cited always comes from either rightwing anti-Obama blogs, rightwing slanted wesbites that are notorious for propaganda, or from individuals that are well known to spread rumors in favour of the right, like Corsi. Oh yes and ofcourse references are made to this courtcase where the plaintiff claims this and that and people eagerly take him by his word.

I find it laughable everytime one of these rightwingers come onto CNN or CBS or whatnot and make demands of Obama to present his birth certificate, I mean these folks obviously dont hold any grounds as saying its fake but theres a real need to keep this rumor of barack Obama alive, regardless of howmany holes it may have. Its two weeks to election day and I can assure you all that not too long after that day people will move away from the BS and simply wont care. After all "it was just a smear meant to get as much voters away from the D".

Anway to conclude my little rant here... hidden away within other posts that will probably get more attention... this is a conspiracy site, and we are discussing this rumor here is a conspiracy site... which makes this argument from those anti-Obamanians less so...

Done.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by Areal51
 



First off, leave your partisan BS out of it. It's clear that you are anti-Obama, and that you assume anybody who is vetting the case and doesn't agree with you is pro-Obama. It's just some boring BS that stinks to hell that you should leave out of the discussion.


Well ain't that the kettle calling the pot black. Your assuming i'm a republican and support McCain. maybe you would be interested to know i'm not a repub. i have no political affiliation! The Simple fact is questions have been raised about the mans eligiblity to run for office. and until they are answered no one will know if they are true or false.

the last time i left the U.S. was in 2004. at no time did i have to show a passport to leave the country. and when i returned because i am a U.S. Citizen all i had to show was my State issued Drivers license.

I have Kids and also took them with me. i did not have to show anything for them, not even a birth certificate. it wasn't until recently they changed the rules and required every one U.S. Citizens include to show a passport to re enter the U.S. AGAIN YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LAWS ON THE BOOKS AT THE TIME NOT THE LAWS OF TODAY. but if you would have done any research of your own you would know that! All your info comes from Pro Obama Blogs and his website. thats ok if you don't want to admit it we all know the real truth.

Your just pissed that someone don't by into Mr. Obama BS and you revert to name calling and spin. First you accused me of personal attacks and now its partisan BS. what are you 4?


Maya Soetoro-Ng
Born 1970
Honolulu, Hawaii
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ericl (Talk | contribs) at 21:22, 18 March 2008. It may differ significantly from the current revision.


original WIKI

Seems her birth place had been editted! so can you explain why she has a certificate of live birth in HAWAII?

a good reason why in cases like these you shouldn't use WIKI because anyone can edit the info.


If you know the mind of a judge, Berg should have had you take his case. What goes through the mind of a district court judge? Do tell.


this just goes to show how little you know about the role of a judge. Yes he gets briefs from both side stating their sides and the list case law and law codes to support their positions BUt the Judge must also Look at the laws for himself to determine which side is right!


Anyway, my thinking is that the judge doesn't want to issue a ruling one way or the either that might influence the election. So he's letting the clock run out.

Again showing your lack of understanding in how the courts work. There is no clock to run out. if the Judge doesn't rule before the election he can rule after the election. the only way this Suit will go away is if Berg withdrawls the suit, the judge rules in favor of Obama to dismiss or he hears the case and rules for or against the suit.

Since you say you have done all this research have you looked at the indonesian laws? i'm guessing you haven't. go do your homework my friend.



You said, "Obama didn't have to he renounced his citizenship by default he did when his mother did." That is what you said, and it is untrue. Under US Code, there is no such thing as a "default renunciation of citizenship". And that is what I addressed; the fact that renounced citizenships are irrevocable, AND that a parent could not renounce the citizenship of a minor.

You did say, "The laws at the time say that citizenship follows the custodial parent." But that conclusion didn't mean anything since your premise was false!


again your looking at the U.S. that is in effect today not the code that was in effect in 1961. quit trying to spin my answers to use them against me! the law on the books in 1961 says Citizenship follows the custodial parent. and if the custodial parent renounces her citizenship and became a citizen of Indonesia then Obama became a citizen of indonesia. also with Lolo acknlowdeging Obama as his son also made Obama a citizen of indonesia!

Since you won't even look at the laws that were in effect in 1961, the very same laws a judge would have to use to determine Obama's eligiblity it is pointless to have a discussion with you.

reply to post by southern_Guardian
 



His certificate of birth is authentic, his been under FBI/CIA scope for the two years that his been running just like everybody

I hope you have a creditable source to back that up! since there is no vetting process until after the election for a presidental nominee!

i sure hope you aren't basing this off of factchecker.org since they are biased in this instance!

And again Berg is a democrat so you obviously don't know what your taking about
_______________________________________________________________________

The very simple fact of the matter is. Mr. Obama is running for the highest office of the land. He is a public figure and answers to the people of the United States. If the People have a question about his elegibilty to run for office he should answer those questions and prove to us that he is eligible!

UNtil it is proven one way or the other that he is eligible to be POTUS there will be an * next to his name just like there will be one next to Bushes for how he took office.

[edit on 10/22/2008 by Mercenary2007]



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 10:19 PM
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Mercenary..I have read all your posts and checked the facts, and have one thing to say..
You know the laws, you have done a wonderful job researching the "FACTS".
For those of you who may not know what "Facts" mean.
It means the TRUTH..
The truth my friends, in the end, will always win..
That being said, I have much respect for you Mercenary, for finding all the facts to this complicated issue, and presenting them as you have..
If this topic gave grades, you would without a doubt receive an A+



posted on Oct, 23 2008 @ 12:45 AM
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The location of his birth is in controversy as witnesses have reported that Obama's mother (Ann Dunham hereinafter "Dunham") left Hawaii and went to Kenya, Africa in search of the baby's biological father, Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., only to discover that Obama, Sr. was married and had many children in Kenya from this marriage. And, a birth certificate for this illegitimate conception placed on the internet campaign sites for Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. has been investigated by third and deemed a forgery.


Further, it is alleged that Defendant's Mother (Dunham) placed demands upon Obama, Sr. to divorce his then current Kenyan wife and marry Dunham prior to the immediate arrival of the son that she and Obama, Sr. had conceived. If there was a "marriage' between Obama, Sr. and Dunham it was polygamous as Obama, Sr. was already married in Kenya, Africa. Thus, Defendant was born illegitimately location unknown.

Shortly thereafter, it is alleged that Dunham left Kenya, travelled back to Hawaii and registered her newborn son, Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. as born in Hawaii. This island state had recently been admitted into the United States, but it allowed after the fact late registration birth certifications unlike any continental US state.

When her son(the Defendant) was five years of age, Dunham married LaID Soetoro, a citizen of Jakarta, Indonesia, a practicing Muslim whom
she meet at the University in Hawaii, and the Defendant along with his mother moved to Jakarta, Indonesia in late 1967, Upon their arrival, Defendant was legally declared as the step-son of his mother's new husband (Soetoro) and, more importantly, a citizen of Indonesia.

Barry Soetoro (formerly Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.) enrolled on January 1, 1968 in the Franciscan Assisi Primary School in Jakarta, Indonesia with serial number 203 and he sat in class 1B with the school records indicating that both he and his mother had declared Barry Soetoro (Defendant) as a citizen of Indonesia. These records are factual and a matter of public record.

And, more importantly, both Defendant and his mother listed himself as a citizen of Indonesia, not the United States when given the opportunity to do so, in lieu of making a legal and public renunciation formerly declaring her son, the Defendant, as a citizen of Indonesia.

.....

Mrs. Soetoro, her son Barry, and her daughter, Maya resided as a legal
residents of and self-declared citizens of Jakarta, Indonesia from late
1967 for + or -7-10 years while Mrs. Soetoro remained legally married
to Barry's step-father, Lolo 5oetoro. The parties divorced 12 years later
in 1980. When Barry and Mrs. Soetoro re-entered the US they did so
under old US passports to live in Hawaii for a brief period of time.
Dunham later returned to Indonesia where she remained her entire life
or travelled and worked in foreign countries, not in the United States.


Thanks Missy I just want to know the truth And as a citizen of the united states and a registered voter I am entitled to the truth!

Something the Obama Fans either haven't seen or the just simply over look is the filing i quoted parts of above, Which was NOT filed by Mr. Berg. it was filed by a "Jane DOE" witness. Name editted by the court clerk i assume. it seems "Jane Doe" has put the research in. Maybe the Obama fans will like to read it.

Source

this isn't from Berg's site but from federal court docket system.



posted on Oct, 23 2008 @ 12:47 AM
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Originally posted by Mercenary2007
reply to post by Areal51
 



the last time i left the U.S. was in 2004. at no time did i have to show a passport to leave the country. and when i returned because i am a U.S. Citizen all i had to show was my State issued Drivers license.

I have Kids and also took them with me. i did not have to show anything for them, not even a birth certificate. it wasn't until recently they changed the rules and required every one U.S. Citizens include to show a passport to re enter the U.S. AGAIN YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LAWS ON THE BOOKS AT THE TIME NOT THE LAWS OF TODAY. but if you would have done any research of your own you would know that! All your info comes from Pro Obama Blogs and his website. thats ok if you don't want to admit it we all know the real truth.



That was true for trips to Mexico, Canada, Aruba, and I believe Jamaica, but everything else did require you to show a passport upon arriving in the US. The rules just recently changed and there are now no exceptions.


Each time I returned from Africa, Japan or Ireland I was required to show my passport and this was even before 2001.



posted on Oct, 23 2008 @ 12:50 AM
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reply to post by round_eyed_dog
 


I can second that. Every mission trip that I took during the mid nineties required passport upon entry.



posted on Oct, 23 2008 @ 03:27 AM
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Originally posted by Mercenary2007
Well ain't that the kettle calling the pot black. Your assuming i'm a republican and support McCain. maybe you would be interested to know i'm not a repub. i have no political affiliation! The Simple fact is questions have been raised about the mans eligiblity to run for office. and until they are answered no one will know if they are true or false.


What a laugh. Your words: "i don't know why i bother debating the facts with obama supporters. they can't see the forest for the trees. " And: "Have any of you Obama supporters even tried to look into the guys past? and making an informed decession [sic], or do you just go to Obama's website and take his word for it. " And: "another thing that gets me about Obama supporters. if the shoe was on the other foot and it was a repub refusing to prove he was eligible to be President you'd be screaming bloody murder."

Clearly you're condescendingly anti-Obama. And I couldn't care less. Your partisan stance doesn't necessarily make you pro-McCain, which is something I never said or implied. I just said that your partisan BS stinks. And it does.


the last time i left the U.S. was in 2004. at no time did i have to show a passport to leave the country. and when i returned because i am a U.S. Citizen all i had to show was my State issued Drivers license.

I have Kids and also took them with me...


As I said, that is your own experience. It has nothing to do with anyone else's. I could have mentioned my trip to in '91 when I was asked for my passport by a customs agent before boarding a flight to Germany. And, by coincidence, I was asked to show when I returned. Out of five members in my traveling party, I was the only person asked. Maybe customs was doing random checks because the nation was at war in the Persian Gulf, I don't know. Point is, I was asked departing and returning to the United States. But it doesn't prove anything other than that I was asked.

Ms Dunham could have been for documents regarding the baby when she returned to the US from Kenya, we don't know. But if she had been asked, I'd like to know how she proved that the baby was hers absent any identification regarding the baby.



Maya Soetoro-Ng
Born 1970
Honolulu, Hawaii
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ericl (Talk | contribs) at 21:22, 18 March 2008. It may differ significantly from the current revision.


original WIKI

Seems her birth place had been editted! so can you explain why she has a certificate of live birth in HAWAII?

a good reason why in cases like these you shouldn't use WIKI because anyone can edit the info.


So, you admonish about using Wikipedia - - by using Wikipedia?


But whatever your stance on Wikipedia. I'm going to use it again along with something else to substantiate the place of Maya's birth.


After her divorce, Dunham married Lolo Soetoro, and the family moved to Soetoro's home country of Indonesia in 1967, where Obama attended local schools in Jakarta until he was ten years old. He then returned to Honolulu to live with his maternal grandparents while attending Punahou School from the fifth grade in 1971 until his graduation from high school in 1979. Obama's mother returned to Hawaii in 1972 for several years and then back to Indonesia to complete fieldwork for her doctoral dissertation.
en.wikipedia.org...

On July 18, 1995, Barack Obama's book "Dreams From My Father" was published. In the book Obama describes the family situation in Indonesia, the tension growing between his mother and stepfather, Lolo. And how that tension was mediated by the birth of Maya.


Sometimes I would overhear him and my mother arguing in their bedroom, usually about her refusal to attend his company dinner parties, where American businessmen from Texas and Louisiana would slap Lolo’s back and boast about the palms they had greased to obtain the new offshore drilling rights, while their wives complained to my mother about the quality of Indonesian help. He would ask her how it would look for him to go alone, and remind her that these were her own people, and my mother’s voice would rise to almost a shout.
They are not my people.
Such arguments were rare, though; my mother and Lolo would remain cordial through the birth of my sister, Maya, through the separation and eventual divorce...
Page 47

Then Obama describes his arrival in Hawaii, a trip that he took from Indonesia alone, to live with his grandparents. He also describes going through customs and having a memory of his departure from Indonesia, leaving Lolo and Maya behind:


I looked to the front of the line, where a Chinese family seemed to be having some problems with the customs officials. They had been a lively bunch during the flight from Hong Kong, the father taking off his shoes and padding up and down the aisles, the children clambering over seats, the mother and grandmother hoarding pillows and blankets and chattering endlessly to one another. Now the family was standing absolutely still, trying to will themselves invisible, their eyes silently following the hands that riffled through their passports and luggage with a menacing calm. The father reminded me of Lolo somehow, and I looked down at the wooden mask I was carrying in my hand. It was a gift from the Indonesian copilot, a friend of my mother’s who had led me away as she and Lolo and my new sister, Maya, stood by at the gate.
Page 50

Then Obama his reminiscing about when his mother first explained his returning to Hawaii:


The new arrangement hadn’t sounded so bad when my mother first explained it to me. It was time for me to attend an American school, she had said; I’d run through all the lessons of my correspondence course. She said that she and Maya would be joining me in Hawaii very soon-a year, tops-and that she’d try to make it there for Christmas.
Page 51

Then Obama briefly describes living in Hawaii with his mother and sister:


She had separated from Lolo and returned to Hawaii to pursue a master’s degree in anthropology shortly after my own arrival. For three years I lived with her and Maya in a small apartment a block away from Punahou, my mother’s student grants supporting the three of us.
Page 62

That's four excerpts from "Dreams From My Father" that establishes Obama living in Indonesia with his mother and stepfather at the time of his sister Maya's birth. It supports the Wikipedia entry that says Obama returned to Honolulu, HI in 1971. And it supports his mother arriving in Hawaii a year later in 1972; only it adds that Maya came along with her. And tells of the three of them living together in Hawaii.

Because of that, I go with the Wikipedia entry that sources Maya's birth from "Dreams From My Father, and states:


Maya Soetoro-Ng
Born 1970
Jakarta, Indonesia
Residence Honolulu, Hawaii
Occupation Schoolteacher
Parents Lolo Soetoro and Ann Dunham
en.wikipedia.org...

(Continued)



posted on Oct, 23 2008 @ 03:28 AM
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(Continued)

Cite the "certificate of live birth in HAWAII", if you can. I have not seen anything online that supports your claim or the Wikipedia entry that you cited. Maybe you have an inside connection?


this just goes to show how little you know about the role of a judge. Yes he gets briefs from both side stating their sides and the list case law and law codes to support their positions BUt the Judge must also Look at the laws for himself to determine which side is right!


I asked you to explain what goes on inside the mind of a district court judge. I didn't ask you state the obvious. Anybody on board could tell another that a judge looks at the laws for himself to determine which best applies. I asked to explain what goes through a district court judge's mind. That is, what I asked. And you offer something that could apply to anybody, laymen or law professionals, could do. I'm pretty sure that a district court judge considers things differently than a circuit court judge, or a supreme court justice. But don't bother trying to explain. It's clear from your answer that you don't know a damn thing, and could hardly tell me what I'm getting at by asking you that question.


Again showing your lack of understanding in how the courts work. There is no clock to run out. if the Judge doesn't rule before the election he can rule after the election. the only way this Suit will go away is if Berg withdrawls the suit, the judge rules in favor of Obama to dismiss or he hears the case and rules for or against the suit.


I was talking about the "proverbial" clock, smarty pants. The proverbial clock that relates to the amount of time between then and the general election. Basically saying that if the judge doesn't want his decision to adversely effect events that might cause damage to other parties, he could sit on the suit for as long as he desired.

You're calling me stupid? And here you were thinking that I was referring to the case! To some statutory limit as to how long civil cases can be left open and unheard. Civil cases can take years to be heard, and then years to be tried. Depending on the case. And it's all at the discretion of the judge.

Clearly it is you who does not have a light bulb on upstairs.



Since you say you have done all this research have you looked at the indonesian laws? i'm guessing you haven't. go do your homework my friend.


You brought up Indonesian laws that Lolo Soetoro had to follow. So it was your duty to cite credible sources that support what you asserted. I didn't think you could. And I didn't think that you would.

You just want to bluff and huff Berg rehash. Boring.


again your looking at the U.S. that is in effect today not the code that was in effect in 1961. quit trying to spin my answers to use them against me! the law on the books in 1961 says Citizenship follows the custodial parent. and if the custodial parent renounces her citizenship and became a citizen of Indonesia then Obama became a citizen of indonesia. also with Lolo acknlowdeging Obama as his son also made Obama a citizen of indonesia!

Since you won't even look at the laws that were in effect in 1961, the very same laws a judge would have to use to determine Obama's eligiblity it is pointless to have a discussion with you.


There are were no US laws in 1961 that specifically stated that when a parent renounces citizenship, by default citizenship for a child is also renounced. That is what you said. It is untrue. It has never existed.

Again, CITE the sources for your claims. Especially in this case, if such an abomination has ever existed on this issue.

Saying that a child assumes the citizenship status of a custodial parent is a significant substantive difference. It does not mean the same as citizenship being renounced. And clearly it could not have been true in 1961 or otherwise, BECAUSE Obama was able to renew or reapply for US citizenship of some sort at the time he turned eighteen years old.

You were wrong. Just admit it.
 

Cite the source of the Kenyan birth certificate that bears the name Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. You brought it up. Cite the source.

Cite the source of Maya Soetoro-Ng's Hawaiian birth certificate. You brought it up. Cite it.

Cite the sources of 1961 Indonesian law in relation to the assertions you made that were based on them.

Support with evidence that Lolo Soetoro and Indonesian school officials observed Indonesian laws at the time in question.

Support the school registration form.

You assert what Berg assumes. Put up or shut up.

[edit on 23-10-2008 by Areal51]



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