Photographic and Scanned Evidence of Precognition

I have been asked in a few threads to provide proof of my claim, that I have changed a dream, and those changes happened here in this reality as a direct result of altering a dream before it comes true. I feel that I should create a thread for debate, and so I can direct people to this thread should the questions keep arising, and I am sure they will.

Some dreams can come true. We call these dreams precognitive dreams. Others call them visions, and I am sure with our vast diversity of culture and language, there are many other names and explanation of this phenomena. What is *more* important in this claim, then the claim itself is you, the reader may have had dreams, that have come true.

Since I am making the claim, I will affirm that I have no ego attached to the experience, it is something that I have had since I was 15, and I am now 36. I have proven this extensively to friends and family over the years. I have no doubts in my mind, that this phenomena is real, and a real part of many peoples lives.

Where is am stepping forward in the understanding of precognition, is the merger of another aspect of dreaming, called Lucid Dreaming, or Conscious Dreaming, whereby I am fully aware that I am in a dream, and I am dreaming said dream, with full cognitive, logical, rational and creative faculties present.

During a series of Lucid Precognitive Dreams, I have made changes to the dream itself, the cause and effect follow this personal premise:

"If I can impress a mark on a dream, like a footprint, in theory it could help map these dream layers and help me target the precognitive layer more effectively."

To map the layers of dreams, one has to realize dreams are multifaceted and layered. They are, and one particular band/layer/frequency I will name the Precognitive Layer for the purpose of labeling and discussing this band of dreaming. Also to help you the reader, locate this layer for yourself, in your own personal exploration of dreams, which I also encourage.

Now with some explanation of theory, lets present some of my personal evidence regarding this mapping of the dreamstate, and the effect it had on my reality.

Case 1: Kevin's Triangle.

In the dream, I was fully aware I was dreaming. It was during the start of my mapping phase. I recognized Kevin from where I was working at that time, I felt it was likely that this current dream was precognitive since the setting matched my current reality focus. I pointed at Kevin in the dream from a distance over 6 feet, and a triangle appeared on his forehead in the dream.

For the reader, I will affirm that this claim states in fact, I caused a triangle to form on Kevin's forehead in a Dream. My body was asleep, my awareness and consciousness was focused in the dream state. And I will wake up in this reality after the dream is finished, and remember clearly dreaming said dream.

Now in reality, approximately 3 weeks later, I was at work and in this reality, the sensations that come with having lucidity in a dream started to emerge in the pattern of time/space and I naturally followed the same motion of pointing my hand at Kevin, and inducing the triangle on his forehead.

From a distance over 6 feet, the "dream" had now come true and the triangle also formed in this reality. Here is a scan of two photographs of Kevin's forehead clearly showing a triangular mark. I will include a witness statement from Kevin from that time, so you can read his interpretation of the experience.

What these photos represent to me, is a picture of a dream that has come true. It is photographic evidence of precognition in my opinion.

I have written on paper for the purpose of just proving I have these images in my possession. The first image is unmodified. The images that follow are modified with contrast/brightness only, to help focus the mark. The greyscale and emboss also help show the marking. I outlined the marks in one sample to simply show it's shape boundary. The mark itself is not photoshopped, I have an original Polaroid I can scan ample times, same with a regular photo. The marks are clearly on the photo. This is not photo manipulation. If need be I can even hold them up on web cam and focus in on the markings.


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Here is a link to kevin's account of the experience: Kevin's Account

The second piece of Evidence is even better then Kevin's triangle for me personally. And I will explain. This is a scan today of my left hand. When I went through this mapping phase and experienced this cause and effect that changes to a precognitive dream can occur here. Not only can they occur here, but they can occur in a way that appears phenomenological. I also realize that I am human, and quite easily able to forget, lose interest or dismiss this to even myself, and I needed personal prove that would constantly remind me. Like a string on my finger to speak metaphorically.

In a dream, I deliberately targeted my left hand and induced a triangle. Like the previous mentioned dream, I was lucid dreaming within the precognitive band of the dream spectrum. I saw my hand, focused my intent to leave a triangular mark as part of the mapping phase of my research.

Later on in reality, I would be at home near my computer and I would stand up as I felt the sense of lucidity and dream awareness (deja vu relates quite well) and I focused on my hand and induced the mark as the "Dream came true."

This mark is permanent to this day, as is Kevin's. I can scan my hand indefinitely to show the mark. Here we have two samples of evidence to back my claim that *we* can change dreams, before they come true.



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Finally, here is a newspaper article where I cause redness to appear on the arm of the skeptical reporter.



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*Note I am 36 now, the article is 10 years old, as are these events.

reply to post by YouAreDreaming


I know what you're talking about. I also know there is no use trying to tell others. The earth is effectively round. Some people don't know that yet. So there's no use telling time, space, and all those nonintuitive descriptions of the world are round as well.
Silence and observation suffice.

So what you're saying is that there is an element of you that is outside of cause and effect that can directly control and manipulate cause and effect. Thus you are controlling interaction. So you're either A.) A supreme Being that is non-physical, or B.) Self deluded, egotistical, deceptive, manipulative, and wanting to feel extra-special with your power from beyond.

Those are the only two logical conclusions, and really they're 1 split into 2.

I'm a bit more humble, see. I am the interaction, and for every action there is a reaction, and for every reaction there is an action, for every action is a reaction and every reaction is an action.

I guarantee with 100% certainty that if you or anyone you know that apparently has these powers, flew out to me and tried it on me that you couldn't get away with anything. The triangle in the palms, that's just silly now, c'mon. We all have those.

I think the world needs to open a lot more psych wards that are scientifically grounded so that we can deal with all these new age Jesus' that can perform physical alterations through their thoughts alone. That starving kid in Africa is still dying.

I think this really, out of all the rubbish hoax scam spam on here should be voted the number 1 load of junk on the whole of ATS.
They should make a rubbish rating system.To flag as stupid or good.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


This is a result of some theory based on precognition. I am posting it because I know from doing it, that this demonstrates some of the potential that I am observing with precognitive dreaming.

How ever you want to spin it, is fine with me. Hopefully others with precognitive dreams can further this knowledge.

As far as wanting to feel special or powerful, talk to the next guy, I'm not interested. My interest is in the phenomena itself, sharing my experiences with it, is to hopefully attract others with knowledge or information about it.

People are starving because of there are people preventing them from getting food and water, it's a forced man made condition of neglect, control and abuse. Something humanity is in dire need of evolving past imo.

reply to post by Interestinggg


What makes me happy about your comment is as [HOAX] as you would like to believe this is, it is not remotely close to a hoax or a fraud.

Yes, you can say I am trying to play land of make believe and fill ATS with spammy rubbish, and I am fine with that. Believe it's a hoax and a fraud, enjoy that belief. I know what I did, I know it's real. And that's totally cool with me.

I understand that you truly believe in what has happened to you to be something that is able to be controlled.

I have also had dreams that have come true, not the entire dream, but parts of it.

I don't look into it. There are an infinite amount of synchronicity and coincidence throughout existence.

If one dream is true then all dreams must be true. This isn't how it works. When two things coincide with one another at one moment and you draw a resemblance between them, it's just because it happened. If I dream about something and something in that dream comes true or I notice it in my awake state it doesn't mean that I have precognitive abilities. However, If I could foretell the future 100% of the time, then I'd accept myself as precognitive.

We are a part of something much bigger than this small individual body and this small individual mind and it is actually in control of us, not us in control of it or anything of it, it is far beyond our petty illusions of self control of our self and others and other things. It's just a Being; no point, no purpose, no reason... except for what we attempt to give it. It simply happens because of itself, it's own forces, actions and reactions, that which render one eternally perpetual interaction.

Like I said: the starving child in Africa is still dying, and it matters not whether I can see him die before he does.

[edit on 18-10-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
...you're either A.) A supreme Being that is non-physical, or B.) Self deluded, egotistical, deceptive, manipulative, and wanting to feel extra-special with your power from beyond.

Well i think most of us would agree that Deja vu is a real enough phenomena and have experienced it ourselves, whether its precognition or not.

Maybe what YouAreDreaming is experiencing works along the same principles of deja vu, only for some reason he believes instead of being a passive viewer hes the one pulling the strings, and has to imagine up triangles as validation.

Hmm...

reply to post by YouAreDreaming


I dont think theres any basis in the 2 cases for beleving such a thing. They dont seem to be extrordinary events or scenarios occuring.

What were the first cases that started you believing you could control events? The thing that proved it to you?

reply to post by YouAreDreaming


So you're saying that through your dreams you can change the future. I would like to know to what level are you able to do this?

The triangles are not too convincing. As previous posters have said, the places you made the marks are areas where triangles form naturally. The forearm or chest would be a far better canvas.

I am intrigued, but I'm not convinced.

@LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal - There is a slight flaw to your logic, somehow to do something once, someone must be able to do it 100% of the time, is pure fantasy. Take for example basket ball and Magic Johnson, now retired. Ask him to stand at the free throw line and throw 100 balls into the basket 100% of the time, every time. If he fails once, he is not a basket ball player, according to your logic.

Hopefully this analogy helps correct your view to something a little less black and white. If you even dream 1% of the time, and in that 1% of your dreaming in time, maybe 1 in 1000 of those dreams you remember come true... it may not make you a pro-basket ball player, but the fact of the matter, you did manage to hit the basket.

Where I may differ, again differ is being different, not being special, not being magical, not being full of ego, from other people. Is that my primary focus of interest is dreams, and precognitive dreams. I enjoy them immensely, and aspire to be as knowledgeable as I can on this subject, and share this knowledge, and expand this knowledge with other like-minded people. Yourself included.

I know I might come across as bold, braizen and full of self-worth, but honestly, I want to understand the nature of dreams, especially when they do come true.

As for this little problem of starving children. Just because we dream, doesn't mean our dreams are feeding the hungry. Dreams are an information highway full and rich with experiences.

When you see a starving child, I also see this, and it moves my heart and I do want them to have food. However, what I also see is an experience that a being is having, who from the moment before it was a starving child in Africa, was a very evolved, enlightened god-like entity, coming to Earth to have a very real human experience.

When the child dies, this being that the child was before it was the child, returns to a state of realization that it has now had this experience of being that child. Deciding to like, or dislike the experience, the being might then decide it wants to go back to this reality, as a person who feeds the hungry.

There is a greater reality we come from, you go there when you dream, we are there right now as this reality is a sub-reality, or branch/node of this super-reality.

As much as I don't like it, violence, control, starvation, death... I understand it both physically, that as a biological human, and like any machine that has moving parts... it eventually breaks down, and stops working.

One of the reasons for death, is rebirth. Clearly you can see how from death, new life arises. Life is an exchange, plants give their life, so that we may live. We are like vampires, that feed off of the life of this world. We eat life, so we can live. That food chain system itself is ghastly, but inherent in the design of this world.

Another reason for death, is population control. Now not the kind that people claim the NWO has in mind for humanity, rather... imagine a race of immortal spiders that cannot be destroyed in any way/shape/form. These spiders still need to eat, and still need to give birth to more immortal spiders. As time passes, the spiders start to multiply eating everything else, eventually... the planet is just a mess with immortal spiders numbering in the quadrillions and still multiplying.

Death, is a mechanism that prevents a reproductive system, from overwhelming itself with too many competing parts.

Another important purpose which we may not realize, because its an intrinsic spiritual one... is death is also the release of a consciousness from a system of experience, by which the consciousness returns to a reflective state.

As you need to understand, even if you don't believe it, or have any knowledge of it.. rather memory of it. You, me and all of us "here" experiencing life, existed before this lifetime. And we will exist after it. And we need to return to who and what we were before we entered the realm of human experience, because inherently, we are not human at all. We are just experiencing what it is, to be human.

If you need me to state why I know, or how I know... I will share what I know about that based on my experiences, and memories of it.



[edit on 19-10-2008 by YouAreDreaming]

Originally posted by Man_Versus_AntiMan
reply to post by YouAreDreaming

 

What were the first cases that started you believing you could control events? The thing that proved it to you?

Thanks MvAM,

I will try to share this in such a way that it provides the experiences which led to the train of thought, which eventually lead to the action.

Let's first look at the root of the problem. Like all of us here, it started with dreams. One day, one of these dreams came true. Just poof, there it is, staring me in the face. Now, I think I am a logical person. At that time, the notion that a dream could come true was not even something I knew about, or believed it. Yet, there it was, staring me in the face. In fact, I was a skeptic. I didn't believe in psychics, I didn't believe in religion... I was very attracted to physics, mathematics, geometry, computers... all this other hooey stuff was for silly people. But something was presenting information through dreams, which foretold of the future. But not just any future, as the future would be how I see reality, through my eyes, and how my mind interprets the reality through my physical senses. It would be a first-person view of the future.

Spread out a time table, span multiple dreams, multiple days passing, and now many dreams started to surface that would come true. At one point, I had to ask myself... Why? How? As the experience was shattering what I believed reality was from a physical standpoint. What I knew about physics, chemistry, biology... science as a whole was now in question... something clearly was outside my known sciences.

Here we have a person who has dreams come true thinking what on Earth could possibly allow such a phenomena to occur. Was it just me? Is other people having dreams come true? Lots of questions start to emerge. Where in science and research do we have? Are there white papers on the topic? Why isn't this mainstream news? Where can I find answers?

Talking to parents about it (I was a teenager when it happened) = Me being crazy. Talking to friends about it = Me being crazy. Talking to teachers about it = Me being crazy. Most of the people I talked about it too, at that time, never heard of such an experience, let alone had such an experience. I was a bit baffled.

However, a few people surfaced, one was a friend, the other was a teacher and another was a christian. All three claimed to have also had dreams come true. And my friend, thankfully was far more interested in dreams and the sort then I was at the time. So he gave me ample reading material to get caught up. This was "Far Journeys" by Robert A. Monroe. Seth Dreams and the Projection of Consciousness" by Jane Roberts. And a variety of other books. These two books hit home more then any.

My friend gave me a sense of purpose in that he agreed dreams come true and pointed out we could be conscious in our dreams, and go out-of-body. All of which, I would later experience in full.

Here I was, having dreams come true, and now I had some information that seemed to be knowledgeable about it. In that knowledge came a new tool, called conscious dreaming, or lucid dreaming. I did have these experiences before, but didn't know what they were called. Lucid dreaming was a very fun part of dreaming, and it would also serve as the vehicle by which I would observe a dream, before it came true, in a totally awake, lucid and conscious state.

It was in my first lucid precognitive dream, which would have been in July, 1990... that I would have further insights into the possibility that the precognitive dream could be changed.

Other lucid precognitive dreams would occur, and finally one dream, I just reached out and tagged it. I felt it was time to start mapping the dream layer and really putting a handle on all this non-sense, and make sense of it.

One day, the tag, or footprint came true. These photos and scans are as I state them to be, completely the result of changing a precognitive dream. Despite the claim that all foreheads have triangles on them, and all hands have triangles on them. Then clearly in the exact spot on my left hand, where I traced out the outline for reference, and in the forehead of the person, where I also trace out the outline... we should all have the same triangles there right?

Clearly the answer is no, and before it is asked... yes... we would need a before and after photo for the real skeptics to jump all over and still dismiss in any way they could. And do you think I would be any less convinced of the experience, or what I know about it?

The point is... this evidence is just a glimpse into my dreams, and in effect, what I have learned from dreaming.

Asking me to prove I am dreaming, or have dreamed itself is an near impossibility.

How do I take a dream, make it evidence so that others can look at it and go, wow... it's a dream he had. None of us can prove we dream to each other, yet we do. And because we all have them, we agree that they do happen right? Dreams in themselves are like faith. We have faith that others have dreams, but no way we can prove it other then the fact we have dreams also.

The fact of the matter, despite skepticism which is welcomed and understood completely. The pictures and the scans are the evidence of precognitive mapping, and the changes I induced on a dream, using thought (dream control). The science is near non-existent, the world I live in, quite ignorant in regards to dreams. However, dreams are the very grass roots of our reality, at least from my current perspective.

I present my evidence, and my knowledge of the experience in hopes that others with similar experiences can benefit from it, and perhaps help expand my knowledge base.

Can people have dreams that come true? Yes.

Can people change these dreams before the come true? Yes.

Is that a belief? No.

Is it true? Yes.

Is it a widely known fact? Not even close.

I encourage you to take note, forget my evidence, forget about me... who cares what I say. What is more important is you are right in the thick of it also, it is happening to you. You are dreaming, you are a dreamer. Get more acquainted with that part of yourself, and start exploring, pioneering and rebuilding these relationships. See it for yourself... get lucid, get dreaming.

Originally posted by Sendran
reply to post by YouAreDreaming

 

So you're saying that through your dreams you can change the future. I would like to know to what level are you able to do this?

The triangles are not too convincing. As previous posters have said, the places you made the marks are areas where triangles form naturally. The forearm or chest would be a far better canvas.

I am intrigued, but I'm not convinced.

The location was opportunity, not the best canvas. The window of opportunity for me currently can be as little as a minute, so I need to take instant action when I realize I am dreaming, and further more, if my intent is to change it.

It's more like a quick draw of the gun and shoot, not a lot of time to get picky on target location.

As for what level? Newbie.

These two pictures are some samples from my life relating to this experience. It hasn't all been triangles on foreheads. As a matter of fact, I was so taken back that I was successful, that the only other permanent triangle I made was in my hand. And I have no desire to brand people this way.

Think about it from his perspective. He doesn't know what I know, has no clue what I am about to do, and one fateful day, he is in line of sight of a theory that I have had, which is now about to prove itself to me. This affected his life, his parents saw it and thought he hit his head and bruised it. He had to explain to his parents, devote Christians no less, that some guy he worked with stuck a triangle on his forehead. It has a bigger implication then just validating precognition to myself.

This isn't a hoax, it's very real.

Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
@LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal - There is a slight flaw to your logic, somehow to do something once, someone must be able to do it 100% of the time, is pure fantasy.

There's no flaw to my logic but there is a flaw to how you're interpreting it. I said if you are to take something that happens ONE time and use it as absolute proof that a so called phenomena exists, then you must be able to replicate those stats and data 100% of the time for that phenomena to be an absolute truth.

When I dream and something comes true in my awake state it's either because of A.) I've been the place before in my awake state, thus I dreamed about it, because all dreams can only consist of an imaginative amalgamation of the 5 senses that we experience in the awake state. If I dream about becoming a millionaire and then pursue that dream and fulfill it, it doesn't mean that I am precognitive, it means that I achieved a goal that was a 50/50 possibility of strictly fail or succeed in a world full of countless others with most likely the same dream, and not enough career positions for all of us to fulfill that same dream.

Take for example basket ball and Magic Johnson, now retired. Ask him to stand at the free throw line and throw 100 balls into the basket 100% of the time, every time. If he fails once, he is not a basket ball player, according to your logic.

No, according to my logic he can not make free throws 100% of the time. According to MY logic he WAS a basketball player. Not only can I observe this in old video of him, but I was alive and saw him play when he did.

MY logic is not flawed, yours is, and you are not using MY logic, so please refrain from saying so.

MY logic says that I can imagine whatever I want to become in this world, limited by the things in this world that it is possible to become at this moment in our history. MY logic says that you have provided no proof whatsoever of precognitive abilities. MY logic says that someone who is truly precognitive will be able to fulfill their visions 100% of the time. Otherwise you're just like the rest of us. Sometimes you fail and sometimes you succeed to fulfill your intents, dreams and desires. We're all competing in this world with one another and against one another, it is impossible for every single one of us to have everything that we imagine and dream of because the society and system that we have created is not that way. It's a society and system that says "this is the way that the world is, deal with it, you can't everything that you want and you can't make the world the way that you want it to be because you're not in control of it, everyone is and everything on it is."

Hopefully this analogy helps correct your view to something a little less black and white. If you even dream 1% of the time, and in that 1% of your dreaming in time, maybe 1 in 1000 of those dreams you remember come true... it may not make you a pro-basket ball player, but the fact of the matter, you did manage to hit the basket.

You have it all wrong here. You see, life is the basketball game and the player is you dreaming, and the dream is the free throw shot. We're all basketball players and we all take shots, we all want to win so we all want to make those shots. Making a basket is making a dream come true in real life. It doesn't always happen and it can't always happen. Also, we all dream and we all take shots at something at one time or another.

I make every shot because I no longer try to control my awake state, rather I allow and accept everything to be as it is and that's also how I dream. I can't miss because everything always is at is it.

Where I may differ, again differ is being different, not being special, not being magical, not being full of ego, from other people.

The illusion is difference, we're all really the same. No one's in control of anything and we're all effecting one another. You can say we're all different, but then again you're really just saying that we're all the same thing: different. Every single one of us is reliant on and directly effected by every single nanometer and piece of our environment and universe. There are like physical strings attached to every single one of us. We are merely the happen. Every action you think you're taking is really only a reaction of past actions and there was no beginning to this cycle. Even before you were born the events were interacting to perfectly lead up to your birth, the insemination of sperm into your mother's egg, the sperm and egg results of nutrition taken in through foods and drinks by your Mother and Father, the nutrition of the food and drinks and the food and drinks theirselves originating from trees/farms and/or manufacturing plants where soil nurtured their growth, or machines made of steel taken from iron ores deep within the Earth functioned on a conveyor belt of mass production... etc. etc. And so it continues to this day as the story of our lives.

Is that my primary focus of interest is dreams, and precognitive dreams. I enjoy them immensely, and aspire to be as knowledgeable as I can on this subject, and share this knowledge, and expand this knowledge with other like-minded people. Yourself included.

I'm here to expand my knowledge in general, and also teach what I know.

I know I might come across as bold, brazen and full of self-worth, but honestly, I want to understand the nature of dreams, especially when they do come true.

You can be full of whatever you want, I don't mind. To each his or her own, just be truthful and respectful of others while standing strong with truth. Respecting other people should never thwart one's efforts to be truthful, however, when and where convenient sometimes it is nicer to keep quiet on an issue amongst a group of people that would most likely never understand your input or haven't been understanding your input.

As for this little problem of starving children. Just because we dream, doesn't mean our dreams are feeding the hungry. Dreams are an information highway full and rich with experiences.

I'm saying to change the dream if you know how it works. Sleeping dreams aren't the only dreams, we also dream in our awake state. If someone has so much power, the why is the world the way that it is? Because good people do nothing but doubt theirselves, we sit here and discuss what we already know, wasting time and energy that could be spent right now on fulfilling the dream of a better world.

When you see a starving child, I also see this, and it moves my heart and I do want them to have food. However, what I also see is an experience that a being is having, who from the moment before it was a starving child in Africa, was a very evolved, enlightened god-like entity, coming to Earth to have a very real human experience.

Oh, so you believe that we all have individual souls? If so I can direct to a thread that I wrote explaining why and how this is impossible with crisp and flawless scientific logic. What we truly are and why we are in the form we are in, I do not know, but I do know one thing, we don't each have individual eternal "souls", instead we all share one eternal "soul" because there's only enough time and space for one eternity, and time and space are one and the same. You can not have eternal time without eternal space and vice versa. Time is the experience of space and space the experience of time.

When the child dies, this being that the child was before it was the child, returns to a state of realization that it has now had this experience of being that child. Deciding to like, or dislike the experience, the being might then decide it wants to go back to this reality, as a person who feeds the hungry.

See, you almost have it right. Only that the Being is everything, it's here and now experiencing itself. You see the starving child, you are the existence Being, you are that starving child, yet still you do nothing but talk about it as if the two of you are separated, as if he is an entity of his own and you an entity of your own, when in actuality you are the same Eternal Being.

There is a greater reality we come from, you go there when you dream, we are there right now as this reality is a sub-reality, or branch/node of this super-reality.

No. A dream is a sleeping state that induces a form of wild imagination through chemical substances released in your brain that cause chemical reactions to take place. It's like a 8 hour miniature acid trip. There's not a division of realities, just an ignorance of the one true reality, but in that one true reality those that are ignorant of it still exist in it. HERE and NOW and eternally that way.

As much as I don't like it, violence, control, starvation, death... I understand it both physically, that as a biological human, and like any machine that has moving parts... it eventually breaks down, and stops working.

Yes, we will all die, but we do not all have to suffer. That is because of greed, selfishness, disrespect and lack of empathy and sympathy for the cause of suffering. We do nothing to stop it but sit around and attempt to creat fantasy realities and false definitions of existence so that after we die we can attain this. After you die you're going into the ground, most all of us are, and we're rotting so that our energy make up can be trans-mutated and disseminated in and through the environment around us. I'm nothing more than eventual tree food and star fuel and I have been in the past, so why do I have to suffer? Because people don't care.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
One of the reasons for death, is rebirth. Clearly you can see how from death, new life arises. Life is an exchange, plants give their life, so that we may live. We are like vampires, that feed off of the life of this world. We eat life, so we can live. That food chain system itself is ghastly, but inherent in the design of this world.

I wouldn't say that death is needed for rebirth, only that life and death define each other through their contrast. If we get into a nuclear war and destroy the planet so that no more living organisms as we know them can survive, then what rebirth for the planet came of that death? None, only ultimate death for the planet. I do acknowledge that the energy of the Earth will eventually be destroyed and reborn anyway, but our awareness of what is really going on with things plays a part in coming into the true reality. The more aware we become of where we are and what we don't know and do know, the more we realize that most of us are doing everything wrong.

Another reason for death, is population control. Now not the kind that people claim the NWO has in mind for humanity, rather... imagine a race of immortal spiders that cannot be destroyed in any way/shape/form. These spiders still need to eat, and still need to give birth to more immortal spiders. As time passes, the spiders start to multiply eating everything else, eventually... the planet is just a mess with immortal spiders numbering in the quadrillions and still multiplying.

That makes sense, but we're not spiders and we're far more capable of things that spiders are not. Space travel for one (by default technology, industry, etc.)

Death, is a mechanism that prevents a reproductive system, from overwhelming itself with too many competing parts.

To an extent I agree with this, but love, logic, technology and science trump this. Death will always exist, but life can exist more abundantly and peacefully if we learn to be responsible and persevere 100% of the time with the four above things mentioned in the first sentence.

Another important purpose which we may not realize, because it's an intrinsic spiritual one... is death is also the release of a consciousness from a system of experience, by which the consciousness returns to a reflective state.

I don't agree with any of this nor can it be proven. What is the definition of spiritual? If it's an invisible force that can not be detected then you might as well just tell me you're manipulating me through unreachable and untestable lies with no foundation in physical reality to begin with. The consciousness is always in a reflective state. Everything is a reflection, everything is a flection, and everything is interflecting.

As you need to understand, even if you don't believe it, or have any knowledge of it.. rather memory of it. You, me and all of us "here" experiencing life, existed before this lifetime. And we will exist after it.

No, I don't need to understand this. Yes, energy is eternal and the Being is energy, thus the being is eternal, but out eternal individuality is the illusion and it does not exist. When I die, I am dead. The Eternal Existence (energy) however, will continue to exist, and of it my parts will be recycled, but I do not retain individuality nor form. My body is broken down, separated and biodegraded into other substances that are eventually used in the future.

And we need to return to who and what we were before we entered the realm of human experience, because inherently, we are not human at all. We are just experiencing what it is, to be human.

Well, exactly. We're all the Eternal Being, but every single one of us as individuals has never had this experience before and will never have it again, but the Eternal Being always will experience and we are a part of it and we all share it.

If you need me to state why I know, or how I know... I will share what I know about that based on my experiences, and memories of it.

No need to. I'm sure that my knowledge surpasses yours, but thank you for the kind offer. I really do appreciate it.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal, thanks for the extensive reply. I want to reply back but ran out of time, going to spend some time with my daughter and take her out for a bit.

I like where we both are going, in our exchange of ideas and beliefs. We will continue when I return and have time to do so later on this evening.

Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
Can people have dreams that come true? Yes.

Can people change these dreams before the come true? Yes.

Is that a belief? No.

Is it true? Yes

As i said i think everyone experiences Deja Vu to some level. I have particularly clear dreams which i do remember after the fact; glimpses of a conversation, fragments of sentances and gestures all from my pov.

When these then happen in a waking state i just stop and observe, knowing that ive seen this few seconds happen before. I dont know if this is precognition, or some perculiar trick of the memory. It certainly doesnt feel like the latter at the time, it feels like precognition, but then if my brain was tricking me, i would think that.

Nothing youve said suggests to me you are experiencing anything other than strong Deja Vu, the fact that you perform actions in your dreams doesnt mean youve shaped the future, any more than the events i see in my Deja Vu means ive shaped those.

I dont see the triangles in your pictures any more than when i see them on my own body.

More importantly, if you accept the precognition explanation of deja vu, i dont see how you could distinguish between an event you created, from an event that was going to happen anyway.

Can people have dreams that come true?

In terms of deja vu, either, A) Yes, people can glimpse fragments of future events in their dreams... or B) No, it is only an illusion caused by some unknown memory error that tricks the brain into believeing an event has occured previously.

Can people change these dreams before the come true?

A) If you can control your dream, and then that event occurs, it is still just deja vu, your consious intervention had no affect on the events, it was just part of the event that was due to happen.
B) It is a trick of the memory as B above, but instead of you interpreting it as something you have seen before, you interpret it as an event you have created.

I think its feasable you do experience these things, but im not sure you are interpreting them correctly.


[edit on 19-10-2008 by Man_Versus_AntiMan]

I have plenty of Lucid Dreams, maybe next time I will try the same thing. To be honest though, you say you have been having these dreams for 20 years, yet the best evidence you come up with is a barely reconisable triangle on your own hand, and your friend's head?

Why not point at the Statue of Liberty and project 'ATS' on to it? If that comes true, then that would be hard evidence!

Or if that's not possible point at someone elses head, and project a word or number. Just don't make it 666 or they probably won't be too happy with you.

reply to post by YouAreDreaming


I'm enjoying it as well. I look forward to continuing our textual exchanges of knowledge.

If you can change the future through your dreams, by even the tiniest amount, I'd rather you didn't. You have no idea of what might come of your actions. My future is mine, I don't want it altered by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, in fact, I don't want it altered at all.

Obviously, this is dependant on the validity of your claims, but if you can do what you say you can do, then please don't.

How about this.. It's very hard to tell between someone that is just bs'ing their doings and someone that really can do something amazing. How about when you have a dream of something that is going to happen(something that would be displayed to the public via some media..tv, radio etc) you just type it out for us here. Personally even if you are off once and nail it twice it would be enough for me. Im not saying that I think your crazy, I am in no position to do so.. I would just like to know. Thanks

BTW, this thread is a great read!