Must Read: Hidden in Bailout Bill

reply to post by alphabetaone


Stumason is correct. The american financial system is dangerously reckless. They lend much more than they have aka leverage. Someone earlier in the thread said they can leverage UP TO 9 TIMES "their" holdings so if a large # of depositors show up demanding cash...well I think you can pretty much guess at what will ensue!

America is based on ultra-capitalism which means most of the legislation is tailored to corporate greed. They get to do anything they want and if they fail the taxpayers bail them out, at least partially. So we have socialism if it fits the elite agenda and conservatism everywhere else. Forget about taking care of the people. They don't count other than dropping a ballot every 4 years.

So much for land of the free and home of the brave. Its more like land of the slaved and home for the greedy!

[edit on 4-10-2008 by EarthCitizen07]

Someone likely pointed this out, but this is obviously a move to a cashless society.

Why else would this insane bill have been written this way?

I am ILL.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


I didn't say he wasnt right, I just don't like his attitude, nor do I much like yours.

The USA isn't teaming with a populace of greedy warmongers, any more than Iran, or Iraq, or UK or Israel is.

I don't like you or ANYONE denigrating the USA based on this preconceived notion simply because it fits your little posting status to do so. We've funneled far more money into ALL of your economies as it is, and NOW, not only do we have to bear the burden of paying for the small ELITES F__K up, but we also have to shoulder the burden of you whining outsiders who "want our money back.....boo friggin hoo hoo"


AB1

We're already pretty much cashless, I think... All I know is that if I need to buy a pack of gum, I am not whipping out the credit card.

A cashless society would help the government and hurt us because we have to pay premiums and more money to buy something with a credit card than with cash.

Yeah, there are debit cards around, but I think the majority of us use credit.

Actually, this won't be a problem here in America, because Congress on Friday just made sure that we have no money left anyway. We'll have to pay it all in taxes, so it becomes the government's problem if the banks have no cash. We can just tell the government "I gave at the bank".
There is another advantage of being slaves to the government. You can't LAYOFF slaves.

How many of you realize that every time you swipe that card, the banks get ten percent off the top of the transaction. Yep, that is right, ten percent. What a huge rip off. Corporations make sure you know how much is going to taxes, but not to the card companies.

What I wonder is if these same rules now apply to credit unions?

My opinion is that all semblance of representative government dissappeared this week. The next best thing in my opinion would be to start locating alternative forms of currency to utilize. It is time to de-couple from the fed res system. I don't care who is on the hook for the the massive debt built up over the last three repub admins, but I sure don't feel any responsibility for it.

Originally posted by TruthWithin
reply to post by burdman30ott6

 

Banks don't have all of the money that depositors have put in because they have lent most of it out PLUS the leverage ration they are permitted (usually 9 times whatever real liquidity they have). This all works fine until EVERYONE withdraws their money only to find out there is not enough to cover it.

This, folks, is an absolute, 'politically correct' LIE. The banks loan NONE of the deposits out. It ALL goes in the vault, and they loan out their counterfeit money up to 9 times what is in the vault. They did this after the First Great Depression, to pretend like Congress was actually doing something to control their masters. In fact, they cant' loan out any more than that, because they cant' drum up the 'business'. If they could loan out twice as much, then the law would have said they only had to keep 5% in the vault, so they could counterfeit 18 times the total deposits. They made a law to prevent them from loaning any more than they already could conceivably do. They did nothing but 'legalize' the theft through inflation of TRILLIONS of dollars. I absolutely demand that we execute any idiot who declares bankrupty from counterfeiting. They are not hurt in any way, they simply stash a bunch in personal assets, and let the company go. Corporations are immoral and allow bad people to do crimes and not suffer any personal responsibility. Abolish corporations! Draw, hang, and quarter bankers!

reply to post by zorgon

Awesome video.

reply to post by alphabetaone


Which is it, do you want me to stay out of US economics, when the US economy is ciritical to the survival of many other economies round the world, or am I allowed to chime in now?

Seriously, you seem to have a right chip on your shoulder. Rushing to the defence of the USA at the drop of a pin, slating other countries in the process and then finishing with a final flurry of "We give you all your money anyway, you owe us, you whingers!".. How childish is that? Hit a nerve did we?

Bottom line is, this whole mess started in America, but it's affecting my life and those closest to me, so I think I have EVERY DAMN RIGHT to express my opinion on this topic, whether you like it or not.

Don't you dare presume you can tell me otherwise.

i caint wait to finish my courses in master hacker. what happens when banks recieve the wrong info, or the system goes down all over. how does it get retrieved back on how much you had in the bank. believe nothing. the govt has problems with this thing on a daily basis. now you want to trust your hard earned money you saved in your life to a computer that can go down. if a major dissaster occurrs, earthquake, floods, ect to a major electronic bank transferres, lets say power outages, wheres the money now. oops, i had a life savings but the power was cut and i lost it all. just a scenario, but their are others out there to easily mess with this electronic system. i no trust others with my money. the govt has taught me that by this bailout.

reply to post by stumason


Stu, you're absolutely right I do have a chip on my shoulder.

It seems all of a sudden, everyone NOT from the USA is screaming and moaning wanting this, and wanting that because of the AMERICAN economy. Well, where were all these dissenters when WE were giving HUGE amounts of money to YOU, for all your petty little projects that truly amounted to nothing.

You can chime in all you want, but fighting with the people who are experiencing it far worse than you guys are isnt the answer...calling us ALL greedy and slobberish is an extreme over exaggeration, and for all the years I fought for the USA, I certainly will not put up with hearing it. Your country, my country, NO country is perfect lest they cast the first stone.

I don't/didn't/would never let whats happening NOW, happen to anyone in ANY country if I had my druthers about it...but who the hell is listening huh? NO ONE.... everyone wants their little ipods and 60" tv's and 10,000 square foot homes with no children, and their Mercs, and no its NOT just the USA....it's human nature. In fact, it's just NATURE...feed a wild animal and they will act like they're your best friend forever and come back for more and yet more, until the food runs out, isnt that just so?

People overseas and the middle east and asia were getting FAT AS HELL off these illiquid assets just as much as the investment bankers here in the US. NO ONE was complaining THEN! They should have done their homework just as much as WE (those who claim to have no clue to what it was all about) should have. Then maybe no one would be screaming at anyone else.

I know I've personally been saying this here, and to my neighbors and my co-workers for a LONG long time. No one wanted to listen then: "OMG our economy is so strong we're making a ton of money, what are you nuts?!" ... Yea, I guess I must have been, to assume that people have this inherent ability to see past the short-term long enough to realize what's going on around them.

So yes, I have a HUGE chip on my shoulder, I wont argue an iota with you there. Likewise I will NOT let you trash the USA because it's this DAMN COUNTRY I love, its the PEOPLE I love, and it most ASSUREDLY IS NOT the politicians that I love nor the political machinations that have brought us to this point.


AB1

reply to post by alphabetaone


When did I "trash" the USA? When did I call anyone greedy or slobberish? I just said it as it was.

This problem began and is firmly rooted in the USA. We do not have the same problems here, rather our systems have been infected by Toxic US investments which have fallen in value. Granted, our boys in the City got greedy too, but the origin of this mess is America.

The bankers lent people money who, if we're brutally honest shouldn't have been, on the basis that the property market would continue to rise indefinately.

100/110/120 % mortages, 5-7 times someones salary, whichever way you cut it, the lending was out of control.

Once the property prices hit a critical point, people stopped buying them, the prices began to fall, interests rates went up and people could no longer afford those huge homes with the huge mortages attached.

Suddenly, the banks were left holding unpaid mortgages on homes that are worth considerably less than what they were bought for. The defaults caused further problems in the system, which further restricted available credit and liquidity, magnifying the problem further.

All this accumulated and cascaded through the system until we're talking astronomical amounts of money that was lent on assets only worth 1/2 (or worse) of what they were bought for.

This is where you get the banks collapsing. With the collapse of one Bank, other institutions that were otherwise solid, suddenly looked shaky as they had lent the bust Banks money and now wouldn't be paid back. Onwards and upwards this went through the system.

This is how the mess got transferred from the USA to the rest of the world. Our housing market is not collapsing, but prices have fallen due to a drop in demand caused directly by the difficulty in getting a mortgage, as no one is lending now like they used to, because those very banks have been exposed to the US sub-prime mess, not because the banks or EU economies are inherantly unsound, but because of investments bought in America.

So, you can moan and bitch about people picking on the USA, or how much you love your country and don't like people bad mouthing it, but sometimes the truth hurts.

Deal with it, you're a grown man, stop acting like a baby and face up to the fact that this time, it is actually America's fault.

That's not "trashing" or "bad mouthing" the USA, it is facing up to reality.

reply to post by stumason


Stop acting like a baby? Stu, you're the one crying about it not me. I know how this happened, and who caused it. I'm alright and not suffering, not rich YET not dead, I have no reason to cry. And yes, you certainly did defame the US for "causing the worlds problems".

Again, like I've said many times over, I've been saying this all along and the majority thought it was nuts....until now.

reply to post by alphabetaone


I quote:

defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image.

Emphasis mine.

Now, again, where exactly did I "defame" the US? Where did I "cry" about it?

I merely stated fact in my original post which you seem to have taken great offence to.

You then chimed in with your "must defend the honour of America" bull crap and told me to butt out of the conversation as you didn't like what I was saying, despite it being the truth and seemingly trying to stifle any opinion which you interprate as being an attack on your country.

So, seeing as you are in agreement with me over the cause of this crisis, what exactly are you arguing with me for? Simply put, you just don't like the idea of people criticising the USA, whether rightly so or not.

Henceforth, you are the one crying about it and acting like a baby when your "great Nation" received some criticism.

Like I said, grow up. You're probably significantly older than I am, at any rate, so I would have thought you'd have the capacity to be able to handle a bit of "bad press". At no point did I attack America as a country, merely pointed out your economic woes have caused us all hardship.

If you want to disagree with me that is fine, I like a good debate, but attacking me personally, having a quip at the Queen on a subject that is unrelated and which you clearly didn't understand, and then telling me to butt out of the topic just because someone dared to criticise certain actions of the US financial system, is not cricket.

EDIT: For clarity, here is my original post which got your knickers in a twist:

Originally posted by stumason
Seems in the US that your banks can loan out huge sums of money compared to the amount of deposits they hold.

I was watching the news here in the UK and they covered this for UK banks. Most lend out slightly more than they have in deposits, but its like only 10-20% more.

A couple of banks actually hold more deposits than the loans given out, like HSBC, which seems to have a couple of Billion more in deposits than in total loans out. I was really surprised at this as listening to you guys in the US would make it sound like they all loan out £100 for every pound you put in. Doesn't seem to be the case here.

It seems to me that this whole financial mess comes entirely out of the US, due to the way you lot bank and giving loans to hill-billy's who couldn't afford them.

The only reason why UK and EU banks seem to be in trouble is because they either decided to get involved in the US market themselves and got burnt, or have hit trouble in raising new cash because the US economic problems have infected the world money markets.

None have seemed to fail because of foreclosure rates or problems here in the UK/EU, but merely as a result of being infected by the "toxic" situation in the US.

Take France, for example. They're banks are rock solid, because they are naturally cautious and largely stayed out of the whole Real Estate game in the USA. All the EU banks that are in trouble have direct links to US operations, the ones that are solid are the ones that stayed out and played the sensible game.

[edit on 5/10/08 by stumason]

reply to post by stumason


I think you should simply re-read your own post Stu, and judge for yourself where you may be blatently stereotyping a particular group and basically calling them less than human for acting upon something which they most likely had NO CLUE about what it entailed.

THAT is defaming a particular group. I could care less about your Queen or her finances.

So, again, re-read your own post and say all that again...although I can assure you, I wont be reading because you obviously, cannot see the forest through the trees my friend.


AB1

reply to post by The 5th Element


Funny you mention the bank didnt have enough cash, I had the same thing happen to me on a friday and they said the would have to "order" the money and it could be there next week,so I drove to my nearest city, DC, and went to 3 diffrent banks to cash this check and 2 couldnt cash it either, the 3rd one had me wait until the end of the day to see if they had enough money to cash the check. Thankfully they did but they were scraping up to get it all. Makes me wonder as well what is going on. Scary.

reply to post by alphabetaone


You got upset at "hill billys", didn't you? Awwww...

That was the only "bad" thing I said, but it isn't untruthful. The banks gave out loans to any and all, including hill billy's and now they're not being paid back.

I never even implied, let alone actually said, that they were "less than human" as you put it. Seems to me that you're reading an awful lot into one sentence and trying to put words in my mouth.

Go back and read it and if you still have a problem with anything I've said, quote it and point out WHY you think I am wrong, rather than just continuing with the baseless accusations.

I've asked you several times in this exchange to point out where I apparently said things you're claiming I did, but you don't respond and just accuse me more without actually engaging in any sort of meaningful debate.

I'm still open to debate if you can either respond to my questions or counter my arguments, but so far you have woefully failed to do either. You're still sticking to your "Defend America's Honour" guns, no matter what.

Is there anything in this bill to allow them to regulate the precious metal markets? Because right now Kitco reports Silver is about $11.15 at spot, but they can't supply anything under 1,000oz bars and can't say when they will be in stock again. Meanwhile on eBay Silver Maples and silver dollars are going for around $20. Kitco will buy back Maples at $1.35 over spot which seems less than generous given you can make about $7 more selling it on the open market.
I'm wondering if we may see ownership of gold and or silver limited again. Government often do that when their currency is less desirable.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Another move to the New World Order cashless society.
A MAJOR step was taken today by those that really run things.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Fear is what this NWO thrives on, and it is fear that supports their agenda of world domination. What needs to be accomplished by them is supported by the sacre tactics used to get this type of legislation passed in the first place.

It was the same used in 1913 to railroad Congress into the Federal Reserve Act. It was the same that helped pass the Brady Bill for gun control, and it is the same that passed the Patriot Act. We are being manipulated by the media as well.

Real change will only take place when Americans begin to see they really have more choices than those spun though the media by the two party (really one fascist, the other communist) system, and make those choices.

Don't live in fear, rather take action based on your love for freedom and your fellow citizens.

Fix America

[edit on 5-10-2008 by PhilltFred]