Do You Believe Our Military Would Not Defend The American People?

The fact is people were shooting, that means people were being shot at. They didn't confiscate guns to overrun the town. They did it for their safety and the safety of citizens.

reply to post by TheHunted


From Harper's Index;

harpers.org...

Average number of New Orleanians killed by gunfire each month since 2000: 16

Number of the 1,035 confirmed Hurricane Katrina‒related deaths that were caused by gunfire: 8

Sounds like it was even less than business as usual to me. I guess that means that all major American cities are "combat zones" filled with enemy combatants.

Edit to add;

At least two of those fatalities were civilians shot by police. One of whom was mentally handicapped.

www.npr.org...

Morning Edition, August 14, 2008 · A judge has thrown out charges against six New Orleans police officers and a former officer accused in fatal shootings on a bridge in the chaotic aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. The shootings left two men dead and four others wounded.

[edit on 29-9-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

Hello the hunted! Nice to meet you.

Like you said the military has all kinds of people, so of course not everyone thinks the same there. If such an order would happen, some will follow it some will not, simple as that. It all depends how convincing the reason behind the orders are too, and how deep into the state of mind of following orders the soldier is, the no questions asked state of mind.

So a lot will follow orders no matter what and a lot will NOT and would never do such a thing.

Humans....





[edit on 29-9-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by TheHunted


And another issue is the RNC and DNC for instance. Those policeman are just regular people that more than likely haven't been in a warzone like you have. They marched right up to innocent people, arrested them indiscriminately, even those wide eyed college kids that didn't know what was going on, herded them like cattle and threw them in the paddy wagon with no regard for their rights.

Is the United States military capable of going against their people?

Well, that's obvious. Yes.

Do I think that a lot of them will refuse to do so.

Absolutely! There's a lot who haven't forgotten the "domestic" threats.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


Thanks for your input. They have been trying to make soldiers out to be the enemy. Even when they are out risking their lives. Its given there will be some who stick with the government. I believe more would join their families.

Originally posted by TheHunted
The fact is people were shooting, that means people were being shot at. They didn't confiscate guns to overrun the town. They did it for their safety and the safety of citizens.

First, and most importantly, thank you for your service to our country. That goes doubly if you've spent time overseas - a great sacrifice. I have family over there right now, and can only imagine what he's going through.

Truly, I thank you.

On to business here, though. The confiscation of guns from law abiding citizens is never okay. NEVER. How many were raped, looted, killed because their only means of self-defense was stripped from them? If your mother was in NOLA during this event, and she was living alone in a house in a neighborhood with no electricity, how would you feel if she turned up as a statistic because she was disarmed "for her protection?" And if you were literally THERE with her, as a Guardsman, and could not take her with you, would you have taken her gun?

That old woman was someone's mother. She was also an American, and that means until proven guilty, she is innocent of any crime. Her disarmament is as good as attempted murder in a situation like this, and completely unjustified; you say that Guardsmen were being shot at - by whom? Her? Why is keeping the uniformed safe a higher priority than allowing the civilians to keep themselves safe?

Again, thank you for your service to our country, but please do not fall into line when it comes to disarming lawfully armed citizens - there is a higher power than any military officer that makes such an order unlawful. It's called the Constitution, and unless I'm mistaken, the Armed Forces are sworn to uphold it.

reply to post by TheHunted


Dont accuse me of making the soldiers out to be the enemy. I worked along side the military, lived in a barracks, ate in a mess hall for 8 years. Most of my co-workers were a lot older than me and vets from Vietnam.

My foster father was a lifer in the Submarine service. I was raised in Hawaii where the military is everywhere, the whole island is crawling with them.

I have nothing against soldiers. I know just as well as anyone that you are neither saints nor demons. You have the same percentage of morons as the general population does, however just the fact that you serve does not make you an angel, regardless what the recruiters tell you.

You question was not whether we hate soldiers. I dont. But I dont deify you either. I know the military too well to deify it. You question was why some of us do not believe you would defend us against our own government if things went bad. My answer is;

"Because you follow orders blindly without looking at the situation for yourselves."

The whole argument that Katrina was a combat zone was yours. I went out and found evidence did not support your claims, your justifications, for the seizing of weapons from civilians, a right they are Constitutionally guaranteed. Rather than simply arrest the offenders, of whom there appeared to be very few, a decision was made by "the authorities" civilian and/or military, we have no established who gave the order, that weapons were to be seized from everyone. Guilty or innocent. And excess force was used to do so in some cases.

Do not attempt to turn me into a "hater" of the military because I point out that orders were blindly followed and those orders were examples of an abuse of power. And do not paint me as someone who does not appreciate the sacrifice made by the men and women in uniform for this country because I feel that in some areas, they go too far.

I feel our military and our police forces are being slowly conditioned to accept taking action against US civilians. I see it demonstrated here and there, as in Katrina, as in the video of the police making mass arrests in a park and shooting tear gas at people doing NOTHING to deserve it, and I believe the military men and women are being brainwashed not only into believing that this is the right thing to do, but they themselves are not even taking the time to find out for themselves if indeed it is.

You want to make us feel like we can trust you? Then dont blindly repeat what you are told is the truth. Get out there and find out what the truth is. I trust a free thinker over a blind follower not to betray their people and their Constitution any day of the week.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I don't understand what your connection with the military has to do with anything. I never said that because I was in the military that I was better then you. I simply used myself as an example. I stated that there are many like me that are here to defend the American people over government.

I did not bring of the whole Katrina deal. I was defending the soldiers that you are making out to be brainwashed. You believe they are out taking weapons to leave people defensless which wasn't the case. After the storm crime was on the rise. There was looting and murding, a medical chopper was shot at. People were also sniping from bridges. The Guard was there to protect the citizens. They were disarming people because they couls not determine who was the enemy and who was not. Its not as easy as you think it is to identify who is hostile and who is not. Just because the death rate was down, that does not mean shots were not being fired.

The fact is these measures were taken in an attempt to protect the people, not to harm as some have implied. It may not have been the best choice but hind sight is 20/20. Until you are in that soldiers boots you have no idea what its like to be in that situation.

reply to post by TheHunted


Ah here we go again.

I am not going to argue with your opinion about what was happening. If you have any evidence that people were sniping the people sent there to keep order, present it. So far, I have presented evidence that that wasnt the case, and you have presented none that it was. If you can find the evidence that that was more than a myth or rumor, please do so. I am very able to revise my opinion in light of evidence to the contrary.

My comments on the military and my feelings about them and experience with them were in response to your comment to someone else that some were attacking the military that risked their lives for us. Thats all. I was pointing out that I am not a hater of the military or ungrateful for their service. I have too many family and friends that are serving or have served for that to be the case.

I simply dont feel that my gratitude for their service means I cannot be opposed to some of their actions, particularly when those actions are against the country, Constitution, and people that they are hired to defend.

Edit to add;

Your comment that they took the guns because they could not tell who was an enemy or not is exactly why I worry. You should be able to tell. You should know that the average American person is not your enemy. The very fact that you can make your own countrymen "them" against your "us" makes you a danger to us. It is not "you guys" against "us." The citizens of the US are a "we."

[edit on 29-9-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by TheHunted
From what I have been reading some Americans don't trust the military to protect them from our government.

The problem is that soldiers are programed to serve the PTB. From day one training

is aimed at diminishing the concept of the individual.

What if citizen by citizen is deemed a terrorist threat?

This was the case in Germany, it started slow and was geared towards threats of national security. Fortunately this not NAZI Germany, but then again German solder
thought they were doing their duty.

The question I ask you is, who would determine when the government takes it to far?
It is likely the actions would seem and feel very legitimate to the average grunt.

The military is not a democracy... I do not feel any better.

Originally posted by TheHunted
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

New Orleans was a hostile zone during that time. Crime in the city was at an all time high. People were actually sniping people off from bridges. The National Guard who was there trying to restore order were being used as target practice as well. Anybody with a weapon was a posible threat. Don't know if you ever been in a combat zone, you take nothing for granted.

Why would I want to put a bullet in your head? Because we disagreed in another thread. Sounds like you are holding a grudge. You never know we may see eye to eye on other things. I don't want to see you get shot...Stop making me out to be the bad guy.

Can you show me an old lady with a pistol in her house EVER BEING A SNIPER IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE WORLD? EVER?

Thought not. Go back to collecting your check form the CIA/NSA/DOD Black-ops.

Originally posted by TheHunted
...Until you are in that soldiers boots you have no idea what its like to be in that situation.

And pray tell, when was the last time that active duty American solders were fired upon by American citizens. There have been several instances of the reverse.

What did that General say in New Orleans? "Put your rifles up men! These are American citizens!" (or very close to it, anyway)

[edit on 29-9-2008 by sir_chancealot]

The sad thing is that they make the Cops and Soldiers just as paranoid of us as we are of them ..Its a divide and conquer game to TPTB and it certainly proved to have worked out for them during the Katrina ordeal.

The survival group i am a member of keeps up to date a few national guard uniforms of a unit in the other side of the county.

One of them has the insignias of a major and the rest have high ranking enlisted insignias like Master Sergeant, or First Sergeant.

This will get us through road blocks and and allow us to countermand orders in some cases.

One of the members is a retired marine and he has a Master Gunnery Sergeant uniform.
I would not want to be the army grunt that got on his bad side as he can intimidate any one when he gets in there face,
Just think the movie 'full metal jacket' and the drill instructor Gunnery Sergeant Hartman (R. Lee Ermey) times 5.

If you are a veteran and a survivalist this is one reason to keep a set of field cammos up to date with a high enlisted rank in your bug out kit.

Two can play the game.

Take 100 soldiers from Wisconsin, assign them to secure a water treatment facility in Alabama. When scores of thirsty people come storming over the hill to get water by force, do you THINK the 1st Lieutenant is gong to stop and say

What do you think a first is going to say when a Major from a Alabama unit comes up and orders him to stand down.

YES SIR.

[edit on 29-9-2008 by ANNED]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by ANNED]

I think with the government making a plausible, factual or not, argument the government could persuade many military officials to fight a war with American civilians. I don’t think they would come for those who are strong first. First the government would stamp out the weakest links, people that are less likely to have anyone else standing up for them in a crisis situation. Slowly but surely eliminating those who may be swayed into participating in a revolution; then they’d go after their more powerful adversaries and by then I think as with any conflict there would be two sides with different loyalties.

I don’t think it is a question of how many soldiers would defend the American people; I think it is more a question of how many soldiers would believe through fascist methods that they are protecting the people?


[edit on 30-9-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

reply to post by thisguyrighthere




play the video.

ahem...

please people... Realize this is not the right reply.

I understand what you guys are trying to get at... BUTTT... The hunted is stating what is fact for 90% of the military, standing or retired.

Orders don't mean a damn thing when they're orders to hurt your family. while we can assume these troops loyalty lies where their bread is buttered, they also know the butter their getting isn't crap.

Say what you want, but the military knows who really signs their paychecks. Theres a few hundred million signatures on those checks. When the military leaves the people... The people will leave the military.

Personally, I want to thank Hunted for their service to our country. I also want to thank him for making it a point to get this message out the people...

"Your military WILL NOT hurt you!" some bad apples may be in the bunch, but not enough to spoil it.

Yes troops are trained to be psycho killers, but they are trained to be OUR psycho killers... We should love them as such.

When the SHTF... I'm seeking out my buddies at fort campbell, They'll be the best armed militia around...


Coven

Hunted - check this out my fellow serviceman.

Deployment briefing (scenario)

Ladies and gentlemen, today we will be on the streets of America. I do not have to tell you what that means and what is expected of you in this zone. It seems unbelievable to have to say this but our new employer (the Department of Homeland Security) has determined that a credible threat exists amongst a growing percentage of your fellow Americans which have become sympathetic to the Muslim cause. In addition there are those we are told from intelligence briefings that intend to and will likely engage US troops on sight based on all of this Conspiracy Mallarky. It is sad to have to say this but we will be entering our AOR weapons hot in response to these threats. Be careful out there and make sure you come back alive no matter what the other guy does. We do not do this with a glad heart, but we will do our duty to protect this country from all of its enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.

Hunted - were you in New Orleans for Katrina? Because I was, and I bet you can guess with what agency. The only thing which you have mentioned which I can back you on is there was a sniper on the Chef Menteur highway hotel firing on traffic. There was rampant looting true - everything was a writeoff. I know alot of "thugs" got killed by alot of "other" agencies.

True story. the local "thugs" brought water to the people at the convention center when people started dying because they were being starved after the promise of help. I'll elaborate on that story for anyone interested.

The storm didn't hurt New Orleans, it was what followed and of course the media made it seem like the seventh circle of hell. well I there and I cry foul.

Honor your oath period and stay off my streets. You do your job, and I will do mine.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by KMFNWO]

I work on a Marine base and these Marines are SUPER nice guys and really sweet to me but then again if ordered to kill me would they? hmm good question.. maybe i should ask some of them? I think i might offend them. plus i coudl get fired for discussing"personal political matters"
damn maybe i should ask them while im on break?

I would like to think they would question authority if asked to do stuff to the American people. But then again they are Marines..they are truly a diff breed . I see how they train the recruits it's soo crazy! i'm sure 3 months of bootcamp messed with their minds and way of thinking. I see it myself i've heard recruits forget their 1st name when i ask them (cuz we write name on the cups). I don't know WHY but for some reason it really makes me kinda bummed/mad that they dont even know their first name for even a couple seconds.. it trips me out they have to THINK about their name.. thinking..something they probably havent done for themselves for a while. oh man im soo off topic now i think sorry...

anyway its realy hard to say because i understand what it's like to HAVE to take orders etc. they are trained to be like yes sir. they dont question authority the minute they do they get immediately punished.
anyway im really tempted to ask some of them now!!

Its a fact but a little known one . When RAAF pilots were given orders to bomb civilian targets in Iraq they just flat refused to do so !
Mutiny or men with real honour and integrity ?
I would say the latter . Pissed off Johnny Howard but he was always a tool of US foriegn policy and thank god that bastards gone.
How many USAF pilots refused to do the same ?

This is a tough but highly important thread .

I hope the hunted is right and that many soldiers will listen to their conscience but I fear many will not .

The japanese governement sued for surrender BEFORE Nagasaki/Hiroshima.
Thats a fact that US official History still lies about .

But the yanks wanted unconditional surrender so they bombed innocent civilians anyway . A severe blot on USAF's copy book.

So do I trust the US military to do the right thing . HHMMMMM....

[edit on 30-9-2008 by reconpilot]

This video is why I believe the military will go along with the NWO plan.

www.alternet.org...