Do You Believe Our Military Would Not Defend The American People?

Originally posted by ANNED
The survival group i am a member of keeps up to date a few national guard uniforms of a unit in the other side of the county.

One of them has the insignias of a major and the rest have high ranking enlisted insignias like Master Sergeant, or First Sergeant.

This will get us through road blocks and and allow us to countermand orders in some cases.

One of the members is a retired marine and he has a Master Gunnery Sergeant uniform.
I would not want to be the army grunt that got on his bad side as he can intimidate any one when he gets in there face,
Just think the movie 'full metal jacket' and the drill instructor Gunnery Sergeant Hartman (R. Lee Ermey) times 5.

If you are a veteran and a survivalist this is one reason to keep a set of field cammos up to date with a high enlisted rank in your bug out kit.

Two can play the game.

Take 100 soldiers from Wisconsin, assign them to secure a water treatment facility in Alabama. When scores of thirsty people come storming over the hill to get water by force, do you THINK the 1st Lieutenant is gong to stop and say

What do you think a first is going to say when a Major from a Alabama unit comes up and orders him to stand down.

YES SIR.

[edit on 29-9-2008 by ANNED]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by ANNED]

Genius. BTW, you need to open a new thread for this, and let other people know. I had never even thought of something like this.

To believe or not to believe.. That is the question.

Im a soldier and I have to say it does frighten me if I ever get an order like this I honestly don't know how I would react. I know what my interests would be would be to live to my oath and protect the constitution and the citizens before the government like our founding fathers intended.

But as humans so often do they follow orders well and do what their peers are doing so they don't go against the grain so to speak. I hope I never have to face orders such as those but should they come around I hope even more I'd have the integrity and courage to deny them.

Originally posted by Maxmars
Take 100 soldiers from Wisconsin, assign them to secure a water treatment facility in Alabama. When scores of thirsty people come storming over the hill to get water by force, do you THINK the 1st Lieutenant is gong to stop and say, "Hey fellas, let these citizens through."?

No, they will be told who IS and who ISN'T an enemy combatant; and that line has been virtually erased over the last 8 years.

Hopefully in a situation like this against our own citizens we would use riot control...such as the new vehicle that uses microwaves to bring mobs to their knees in pain but doesn't kill them.

However as history tells me such as Katrina people in authority have no problem with firing upon looters and such which scares me.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by TheHunted

New Orleans was a hostile zone during that time. Crime in the city was at an all time high. People were actually sniping people off from bridges. The National Guard who was there trying to restore order were being used as target practice as well. Anybody with a weapon was a posible threat. Don't know if you ever been in a combat zone, you take nothing for granted.

You just answered your own question. We dont trust the military to defend us against our own government because you cannot see the difference between a legally armed citizen and a "hostile." You make your mind up who is a hostile or a threat based on what you are told by your leadership. You dont understand the Constitution well enough to realize that a natural disaster is not an act of war, and that disarming the legal citizens of this country because of a hurricane is unconstitutional. New Orleans was not a combat zone. It was a disaster area. There were criminals there being disorderly? Use common sense and do something about the criminals, not the law abiding citizens who could have helped to KEEP order if you didnt take an us against the citizens approach.

Thats why.

This sounds pretty cocky to me...I challenge you to be in such a situation of chaos and determine who is a friend and who is a hostile. I would argue anyone who didn't look like me (such as uniform), or was actively not with my group would need to be disarmed. It comes down to a matter of trust the whole reason we exist is because the citizens can't be trusted upon to maintain order if they could we wouldn't have a Police Force or an Army.

Your arguing that the citizens were attempting to restore order in an area that was so full of chaos it'd be impossible for a non-uniformed force TO restore order that just can't happen at least in my opinion. Lets take the army and the police out of the picture and imagine they never intervined in the New Orleans, do you think that the civilians of that zone could have restored order on their own by walking around armed with firearms? Do you argue they could determine between who was aiding them in restoring order and who was just taking advantage of the situation by looting and murdering?

I am retired Military, I can tell you right now that
I am not brainwashed, In fact I think I was more inline with the program when I first joined, ( I believed my country could do no wrong) but as time wore on I started to question things. I personnally would REFUSE to kill/round up American citizens. I think that our government knows this, hense Mr Bush's executive order authorizing foreign troops on our soil in a time of "National Emergency" They know that a military mans primary alligence is to the constitution and the American people not these scumbags in washington.

I totally respect the troops but, their bosses I have issue with, how can the military defend us if they are out fighting for everyone else.


It's time to quit showing we can kick A@@, and start covering our own collective A@@es.

We keep playing big kid on the block we are going to over load our fine men and women of the military and we are going to be invaded by Mexico or something.

People of the world are watching the bickering in Washington and they see that every time someone says ramp down our deployed forces, Bush's ego gets bruised and he immediately sends more people to show he is boss.

This arrogance Bush shows and people like him is going to get our brothers and sisters killed and make the US look stupid and rogue.
Isn't that what we call N. Korea Rogue because they want nukes despite the worlds input....do we really want to be thought of as rogue and be in the same league as N. Korea or worse Hitler's Germany.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Beelzabub]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Beelzabub]

The fact of the matter is, there would be a breakdown in the military's chain of command, so much so that some units would be combat ineffective, they know they would not be able to "count" on the military if they had to be used against American citizens.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Sailor1]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Sailor1]

I would venture that 85% of the soldiers would disobey an illegal order.
10% would hesitate and waver and 5% would gladly wag their tail and follow an illegal order.

reply to post by Mcloud313


The guys smashing windows and running off with televisions were the looters. The people beating and kicking screaming individuals curled up in the fetal position were attackers.

Why shouldnt the citizens be their own police force? I'd argue that an established police force, one funded by the revenue they generate and the tax policy they use their arsenal and prisons to enforce, is responsible for the great crime problems all over the country. When they arent sleeping in their cars, getting blowjobs from hookers or making traffic stops and raping the driver at gunpoint they're rounding up petty thugs and shipping them off to justify their "street cred" with a bunch of their "homies" in some jail somewhere only to get out too early and much more bitter and hardened to go on and commit more violent crime. Thanks cops!

The longer this thread goes the more convinced I am that uniform=hostile.
I laugh at the idea the National Guard was worried this woman was going to snipe her so they had to revoke her civil rights. Sam and Vicki Weaver were worried the feds would snipe them. Were they allowed to disarm the feds? I can see how a little boy running away and a woman holding a baby could be perceived as a threat and need to be shot dead ASAP.

The OP seems to have the "we can do no wrong attitude" from the old lady being a threat to telling me I need to give up my rifles because they are NOT responsible for as many deaths as the shotgun which of course he gets to keep. Scary.

Originally posted by Sailor1
The fact of the matter is, there would be a breakdown in the military's chain of command, so much so that some units would be combat ineffective, they know they would not be able to "count" on the military if they had to be used against American citizens.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Sailor1]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Sailor1]

Yes I think we have a whole new breed of Soldiers these days, we are much more informed about backroom projects our government is doing and it's infinately more difficult for the government to hide things from the common Soldier with our new powerful tool: the internet.

Back in the day it was very easy to convince Soldiers to do evil deeds, not saying its hard today but it is more difficult as Soldiers can use the internet to check facts and communicate with the civilians they promised to protect when they took the oath. One thing alot of people need to realize is that the actions of one don't justify the entire organization. Soldiers are people just like everyone else and of course there are a few bad apples in the bunch. What I've noticed has a large occurence to happen is when a Soldier rapes, murders, throws a puppy off a cliff, or steals other stuff like this it is the actions of that individual uniformed person alone not the entire Marine Corps, or Army's common practice.

We have over 1,000,000 troops just because a few mess up isn't reason to blame the other 980,000 troops.

reply to post by TheHunted


I think that it would be a mixed bag. I think there would be some that would defend the people but I think there would be others that would "follow orders". It is no small task to disobey a direct order, regardless of how insane it may be. IF soldiers were asked to round up / attack citizens, it wouldn't be as simple as "Hey private, shoot those people", there would be a lot of psychological conditioning before hand. There would be a concerted effort to convince them that the citizens were infact the enemy.

Some would see through it and some would be afraid of disobeying. It would make for some huge rifts in the military that is for sure.

Also, troops fired on citizens at Kent State. So it isn't like they haven't done it before.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by Mcloud313

 

The guys smashing windows and running off with televisions were the looters. The people beating and kicking screaming individuals curled up in the fetal position were attackers.

Why shouldnt the citizens be their own police force? I'd argue that an established police force, one funded by the revenue they generate and the tax policy they use their arsenal and prisons to enforce, is responsible for the great crime problems all over the country. When they arent sleeping in their cars, getting blowjobs from hookers or making traffic stops and raping the driver at gunpoint they're rounding up petty thugs and shipping them off to justify their "street cred" with a bunch of their "homies" in some jail somewhere only to get out too early and much more bitter and hardened to go on and commit more violent crime. Thanks cops!

The longer this thread goes the more convinced I am that uniform=hostile.
I laugh at the idea the National Guard was worried this woman was going to snipe her so they had to revoke her civil rights. Sam and Vicki Weaver were worried the feds would snipe them. Were they allowed to disarm the feds? I can see how a little boy running away and a woman holding a baby could be perceived as a threat and need to be shot dead ASAP.

The OP seems to have the "we can do no wrong attitude" from the old lady being a threat to telling me I need to give up my rifles because they are NOT responsible for as many deaths as the shotgun which of course he gets to keep. Scary.

Maybe this is my brainwashed mind acting up but I don't understand how you could be brought to think like this. I'm sure the occurences your mentioning with cops and even the soldiers bullying the old lady are correct but this makes you think the entirety of both organizations behave like this?

Do you think that ALL cops commit such atrocities? Do you think ALL troops break into houses and bully around civilians. When I was talking in context of not trusting the civilians to protect themselves I meant out in public domains not with in their own homes. I believe that is the only place they should be allowed to protect is their own properties, now them walking out on the street to protect a public domain I just can't see unless part of a uniformed organization.

If you truly think that all these uniformed agencies are so horrible on a majority personnel level then I really do fear for the state of our Country. I happen to be a member of one of these organizations and the people out there that see me as an enemy and I see them as a friend happen to scare me. I do not think this old woman should've been disarmed within her own home but in saying that I also don't know the full environment these soldiers were in at the time when they made the decision to do so.

However in my own opinion it doesn't matter if the disaster zone was deemed a hostile area/warzone or what it comes down the fact that it wasn't an average or ordinary situation and order had to be restored to the area and it had to happen quickly as it had already been put off for far too long.

There were mistakes the Police and Army made yes I will whole heartedly agree but in doing those mistakes you think the entire organizations embrave those mistakes and don't look back on it with feelings of remorse or regret? Do you think they have plans of acting like this even in areas that cannot be deemed of an abnormal status such as nearly destroyed by a hurricane and full of violence?

reply to post by TheHunted


The ones that kill themselves with remorse for being tools of opression would, the ones that throw puppies off cliffs would not.

As I see it there is a real risk of civil war, because this time the PTB have profiled and segregated the troops, and have a higher degree of certainty that select units would indeed fire on american citizens.

Besides, this revolution, if it happens, will be well fought in the infowars and with cirurgical actions, as corporate media will deflate any mass demonstration into insignificance.

The more I think of it, the more I believe people should demonstrate in front of TV stations, showing their disgust at how pupeteered and useless mass media has become. Maybe some shame in the journalistic side of the equation would make things better. They seem to have far more influence than your average congressman or woman these days, as these apparently get thrown out of meetings... (see alex jones show, 29th sept 2008).

Long story short... don't count on the US military, there are smarter and more effective ways to make a diference than to confront them or depend on them. That is the classic revolution, and I think the PTB have prepared for it. This is the information age however, and while everyone talks and spreads ideas the elites will be hopelessly outmaneuvered by power of numbers. Once every last police and military man knows in his heart what the NWO the system will crumble by itself without need for direct conflict and the price that it brings with it.

Originally posted by Zepherian
reply to post by TheHunted

 

The ones that kill themselves with remorse for being tools of opression would, the ones that throw puppies off cliffs would not.

As I see it there is a real risk of civil war, because this time the PTB have profiled and segregated the troops, and have a higher degree of certainty that select units would indeed fire on american citizens.

Besides, this revolution, if it happens, will be well fought in the infowars and with cirurgical actions, as corporate media will deflate any mass demonstration into insignificance.

The more I think of it, the more I believe people should demonstrate in front of TV stations, showing their disgust at how pupeteered and useless mass media has become. Maybe some shame in the journalistic side of the equation would make things better. They seem to have far more influence than your average congressman or woman these days, as these apparently get thrown out of meetings... (see alex jones show, 29th sept 2008).

Long story short... don't count on the US military, there are smarter and more effective ways to make a diference than to confront them or depend on them. That is the classic revolution, and I think the PTB have prepared for it. This is the information age however, and while everyone talks and spreads ideas the elites will be hopelessly outmaneuvered by power of numbers. Once every last police and military man knows in his heart what the NWO the system will crumble by itself without need for direct conflict and the price that it brings with it.

I do have to agree, the reliance my brothers in arms have on the mass media giants does tend to scare me. There are a ton of Soldiers that follow Fox News as if it were the word of god itself and there are a ton of Soldiers that are devout Christians (which im not knocing just in my opinion is a very easy way to control an army is religion).

Originally posted by Sailor1
The fact of the matter is, there would be a breakdown in the military's chain of command, so much so that some units would be combat ineffective, they know they would not be able to "count" on the military if they had to be used against American citizens.

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Sailor1]

[edit on 30-9-2008 by Sailor1]

Thank you! This is the point I was trying to make. Too much paranoia in the U.S today. We are ultimately American civilians, we have the same fears as any other person in this country. My main goal is to protect my family and thats what I intend to do. No orders would make me abandon the American people.

reply to post by TheHunted


How about the Civilian Inmate Labour Programme,that sounds fun:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 01/12/01 by karl 12]

Having been in the military as well, I can say that I would NEVER have thought about going against the American populace if ordeed to. But then again, we are tlking about the drugs that they have injucted us with as well as the mass media telling about riots and disturbances. It's not as cut and dry as it all may seem. I know that if I wass the puppetmaster and I was going to initiate the military upon the populace, the militry would have some made up story. Besides that... There's always some Federal Prison waiting for those who don't want to cooperate. Until there are ony the "right" kind of poeple consisting of my military.

Again, this is hypothetical, but how I as an idividual would o it if I was one of the Overlords. I'd then do the same with the Police Force as well. Until both were OSS quality.

reply to post by TheHunted


Thank you for starting this thread.

I have run this question through my head over and over and I came to the same conclusion that when the line was crossed there would be no way the military would do anything to hurt their own people.

Being former military myself, I have learned who the bad guys are and
we also cannot discount the fact that in addition to the active military not putting up with that, there are MANY vets would would also never put up with it. The Government would be crushed with it's own high tech hardware.

I do not however trust the police. I hate everything they stand for.
As an American who loves my freedom, I'm watching them and I will not put up with what i have been seeing.

Edit: starred and added as friend.



[edit on 30-9-2008 by Critical_Mass]

I believe that may of our soldiers will follow orders and not defend American Citizens. I say this with a caveat, There are still Patriots with in the ranks of the U.S. Military who will use thier heads and recognize an unlawful order when they see it. These men and women will keep thier oath to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

I believe the same with Law Enforcement. Some will go to the darkside and some will stand strong.

One group that is a dark horse are Civil War Reenactors. They are trained to work in a military manner. Many are fiercly patriotic. Most are bigtime supporters of the 2nd Amendment and have weapons other than circa 1861.