Wicca/Witchcraft/Magick?

reply to post by OkamiZaku


I have looked for the evidence. I've looked all over the place. So far, I've yet to find a single example of scientific evidence gathered that supports any aspect of witchcraft. Not one.

And yes, these folks are technically trolling, as they have derailed the search for evidence by liberally splattering the thread with anecdotal assertions, and harsh refusals to demonstrate any evidence.

And until evidence is brought forward, everyone is indeed just playing Harry Potter, as both endeavours are equally fruitful - lots of talk about magic, and no evidence, no learning, and no furthering of humanity occurrs. I'm sorry if that's offensive to you, but it's the truth. If it's offensive, then maybe you should take a look at your standards of 'learning', and what you actually are trying to achieve here. Please show me how it's not the same as playing Harry Potter.

reply to post by OkamiZaku


Bear in mind that any answers to that will be devoid of supporting evidence, and will only be his opinion. It's a good time to perform an experiment, though. Make a prediction of what you can achieve, set about some rigorous testing conditions, rule out any other influences in your practice, and see if you can repeatedly get the same results.

Then you'd be on your way to actually having evidence, not hearsay, about that which you profess to admire so much. Otherwise it's just lip-service, and no-one, including yourself, will learn anything.

reply to post by dave420


If you are here to "deny ignorance" try asking the wiccans herein a few questions instead of commentary that adds nothing to the conversation. Nothing is gained by an adversarial, or mocking, attitude.

someone help - I'm confused (.com)

Can someone explain wicca properly to me coz all I hear is random tiddly bitz of information from all over.

cheers!

reply to post by omg aliens are so real


Here's a place to start: Wicca

Any good bookstore will have at least a couple of books that'll help you learn more.

In defence of Dave420 - Not that he needs defending

Dave420 and I have had our exchanges in the past. Yes - personally I may find some of those exchanges somewhat undiplomatic...the old chestnut of "Not what you say but how you say it"....but he questions. He questions!

While those of us who experience or believe may find being questioned so vermently somewhat unsettling - I also see that as a potentially positive thing. For he causes you to challenge and question your own belief structure...in some ways Dave420 can be the fire that tempers your steel.

The Paranormal Section is the section I tend to lurk around the most - its my own interest, passion, experience...and I've been a Member of ATS since, well, since it really began 8 or so years ago...so I've seen quite a few threads and claims made over those years.

I also have to be real honest here: Like Dave420 there I times I read threads from people claiming to be able to do this, that or the other...claiming to be able to levitate, throw energy-balls, predict everything under the sun...claiming to be able to morph their physical form etc etc etc. Some pretty wierd, wild and wonderful claims have certainly been made here in this section.
And I'll tell you this: Often when I read those threads the needle of my skeptometre buries itself well into the red.

I accept my own skepticism stems from my own lack of experience pertaining to some of those discussed *abilities* (though that word in itself is something that causes my skin to crawl as I kinda see it as not being an *ability* as such rather a calling - a mandate if you will. So in some way perhaps not being technically *yours*).
Which is also somewhat contradictory to my own experiences through life. Heh - I'm really going to have to start a thread outlining some of those, what I do for a job, what I see each and every working week...as much of what I am engaged in could be seen as being possible examples of these things.

My doubt and skepticism DOESN'T so much come from a lack of belief of these things existing. Heck - just last week I was part of a group that was *helping* a family with their young son who was being *troubled* by a few things.
During our session with the family/son at their house the pictures were rattling on the walls...and at one point a plastic drinking tumbler just flicked off a bench next to us and bounced off the wall. Noone near it. No wind in the room or anything like that.
We had no cameras present, no unbiased scientific investigation team with us or anything to categorically PROVE what happened during that session...all we would have would be the testimonials of the 8 people who were present at the time. Which I also accept ISN'T irrefutable proof. Certainly proof enough for me - I was there!

...and thats the key to it all really - well, as I see it: Words like PROOF and FACT are real big calls to make.

Often I've seen people say things like "Theres mountains of undeniable evidence". Really? I'm no spring-chicken either...so I've spent a few decades also researching these things. And while I have certainly come across much that to me would be considered proof...I also accept I see it as such because that 'proof' is congruant with my own understanding/perception.

I am yet to come across any undeniable irrefutable proof however. The kind which is clearly recorded, unquestionable, solid from any angle you care to look at it. It may well be out there - but to be honest again I haven't seen it.

So...the point I'm really trying to make with this whole meandering muttering is that the Believers/experiencers amongst us need to be cognisant about those definative words like 'proof', 'evidence', 'fact', 'truth'. And be ready to be called on them if you do choose to use them.

Hence why things I post I try to make very clear is just my own perception. I wouldn't claim it as fact, truth, whatever for everyone else...for I am certainly not the holder or arbitor of truth...but it just *feels* true for me, right now at this time.
That may well change...so we also need to be open to being wrong in what we hold so strongly as well.


Peace.

reply to post by alien


Hey Alien

At least you were more so helpful and less degrading. Don't take this personally, but the sooner he gets over the whole 'Harry Potter' thing, and starts taking this seriously, then I'm sure half of us would be more helpful. I'm still finding myself and educating myself and learning, just like he is, but at least I don't try to offend people with my comments. Oh well, just my 2 Cents!

And if I could afford a camcorder I'd DEFINITELY be shooting for evidence, heh! however I'm just a lowly Temp!

[edit on 17-10-2008 by emmy]

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by OkamiZaku[...]So far, I've yet to find a single example of scientific evidence gathered that supports any aspect of witchcraft. Not one.
[...]
And until evidence is brought forward, everyone is indeed just playing Harry Potter, as both endeavours are equally fruitful - lots of talk about magic, and no evidence, no learning, and no furthering of humanity occurrs.
[...]Please show me how it's not the same as playing Harry Potter.

I'll go with the fact, that the thread started with the question "how do I become HP", but the whole thread has benn slightly 'derailed' into the question of Witchcraft.
Witchcraft, as well as sigil, cabbalisitc or other magic never actually claims to be able to do HP style magic.
So, to now answer your top quote (you wanting evidence for witchcraft), you have to first set a task, that is actually possible to complete using witchcraft.

BTW if HP magic were possible with witchcraft, how come they actually managed to burn any witches at the stake!?

On the other hand, to get back to the actual subject of the thread:

I'd like to know, do you know any white magic/black magic/ pyromancy/ hydromancy/ aeromancy/ geomancy/ etc.???

I define that to be HP-style magic, I believe the answer is 'out there' and I won't be advertising it when I've found it!


BB,
Samuel

I think it would be a wise decision to study everything, and practice nothing. With regaurds to religion, we are always consumed with what we can get out of it. No religion offers instant grattification. That would defeat the purpose.

Originally posted by Haiku
No religion offers instant grattification. That would defeat the purpose.

Well, of course! Wicca doesn't really offer instant gratification as well. Notice how they have a comcept of "karma". There's more I could say, but, yeah.

Originally posted by dave420
I have looked for the evidence. I've looked all over the place. So far, I've yet to find a single example of scientific evidence gathered that supports any aspect of witchcraft. Not one.

Then, maybe, you should try not looking for scientific evidence for it and use other sources. Science, is like, one thing that cannot explain religion. Ghosts are one thing, I guess. But this is simply a little thought.

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa

Sounds like a name from Harry Potter.

reply to post by MegaBears


Sorry, but what are you talking about?

reply to post by OkamiZaku

Sorry. I wasn't trying to call anyone's bluff or anything. Just that the name sounded like something that would be in the book Harry Potter. The one about witches and wizards.

reply to post by MegaBears


Oh, you mean that one occultist! I get it!

OK, so I guess it is safe to assume that this thread is dead now?

reply to post by OkamiZaku


Yeah, pretty much. Shame to could have gone farther, but this often happens when you try to mix religion with science.

Blessed be,
hiLB3rt

Read "The Temple of Witchcraft" series by Christopher Penczac. I have been a Wiccan for about three years now and his books are my favorite.

There are SO MANY books. I don't know however i will be able to read them all. I have 1 book on witchcraft, but i haven't done anything it tells me to do. I already have a lot of other books to read that don't have to much witchcraft in it, i really need to get started.

Thanks for all of the book recomendations! (spelling?)

Alright, I really should start reading about this stuff more. I really chould ctach up on reading, also.

Thanks for the help, you guys!