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After I researched about the Hill Abduction

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posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by spookjr
 

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Here's an experiment for you which may help with the 'star map' idea.

Strictly from memory, take a piece of paper and put a dot to signify the town where you currently live.

Then put a dot on the map for 9-10 other major cities near your town. Presumably you're well acquainted with the geography of your area. If you've just moved, then pick your most familiar home town.

Now take a map and overlay the drawing. See how close you are. Most people are off by quite a bit, relatively. This shows how problematic it is to reproduce a map, even if you're extremely familiar with the area. Betty is supposedly remembering a map she saw once a long time prior and she's not using hypnosis or any other memory method. She did get a post-hypnotic suggestion that she would draw it only if she remembered it accurately (whatever that means). IOW she was not hypnotized at the time. I can't substantiate the claim of 'automatic writing':

www.ufocasebook.com...

"On Aug. 4, 1969, Betty Hill discussed the star map with me. Betty explained that she drew the map in 1964 under posthypnotic suggestion. It was to be drawn only if she could remember it accurately, and she was not to pay attention to what she was drawing - which puts it in the realm of automatic drawing. This is a way of getting at repressed or forgotten material and can result in unusual accuracy. She made two erasures showing her conscious mind took control part of the time."


Now take a piece of paper and make 9 random dots, but spaced apart.

Now take a big map of the US and put the map over it and try to match up those 9 dots. You can turn the map left or right or flip it or rotate it. Chances are you'll get a good match.

Now...consider the same 9 dots, but they're in 3-D space. Consider how easy it would be to match them up with 9 stars in a nearby galaxy. Here, you can not only rotate the map, and flip it and turn it, but you can twist it and rotate it through all three x,y,z axis.

It should be a whole magnitude easier than matching a flat map to a flat paper with spaced dots. You have a whole other plane of freedom.

Thus, having a pattern of a handful of stars match up on a nearby star system, given the freedom of 3-D flipping and even freedom of relative size variation is not proof of a real non-human, non-terrestrial abduction or evidence anyone was shown, (not to mention remember) a real ET-map.

HTH.


PS, this is not my analogy, but was shared with me by someone else on the board.
Thanks, B.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.





[edit on 11/9/2008 by Badge01]




posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by Picollo30
 
Well, you have to consider that the backbone of the U.S. Space program was Werner Von Braun and other 'liberated' Nazi party scientists. There was intense spy stuff going on in Germany immdeiatly after the war between the U.S. and Russia. Both countries really wanted those rocket scientists and were prepared to do almost anything to get them. Russia got a huge chunk of Germany and eastern Europe and the U.S. got the inventor of the V2 rocket. But Russia still beat us into space.....



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by Badge01
 
I agree with you 100%. I dont think that the 3 previously unknown stars were anything but coincidence or mis interpretation, BUT, what if it is the real deal? That happened over 40 years ago. Imagine where we are now with our secret relationship with various aliens(if its true that is). Why the heck would you pick some totally unimportant couple like the Hills in the first place, or Hickson and Parker(Pascagoula, Mississippi abductees 1967 I think) I would tend to believe that even abductee Herbert Shirmer,(Ashland,Nebraska Dec. 3,1967) a cop, would be totally unimportant. I mean why not kidnap Hyneck,Sagan or even Condon? People that at least had the knowledge to interpret what they saw!



[edit on 11-9-2008 by spookjr]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by Maker
You'd have to be pretty stupid to think we're the only rock with life on and there's too much compelling evidence that suggests we're not alone, even if you debunk 99.9% of it as explainable, attention seeking or hoax. We have been visited, we're no doubt being observed.


Well, I guess I'm stupid, then. There is some evidence, here and there, of something, but I don't see where it necessarily has anything to do with alien critters or intelligences.

The fact is, even if the Hill case went down exactly as they said it did, and even if the "aliens" themselves claimed to be from another planet, why should we believe them? They could be something entirely different, and liars, to boot. Off hand, they could be time travelers, physical manifestations of a thought form (a tulpa), demons/angels, or something we have no clue about because we just don't have the brain power to understand them. Something that is actually beyond our ability to comprehend. I don't know.

If you can come up with just one piece of evidence that specifically and undeniably proves something (other than that people sometimes see or experience weird stuff) much less that "aliens" exist, I'm sure we'd all love to see it. I'm not aware of any.

But according to you, I'm apparently stupid.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:50 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Talking about how the Hill case has taken on a Mythological status among UFO researchers, consider these.

1. An advanced ET race which uses anti-grav to pilot a craft in the Earth's atmosphere has to literally -drag- one of their victims back to the car. I mean, have they never heard of wheels? How about a suspensor belt or something. Yet people like to list this as high strangeness. Plus, why bother to drag their victim back to the car? Why not just put them in the grass outside the ship? Did they go to 'UFO etiquette school'?

2. A car trunk is reportedly magnetized. There's no part of the story which talks about the craft interacting with the car. Yet it's strange, so it's "evidence". The test was for 'radiation' but still, the compass moved, so it must have been ET.

3. Barney gets a ring of warts. So these advanced aliens forgot to sterilize their equipment? They had an Earth virus in there from a previous abductee which caused a side effect? You'd think they'd have perfected this 'abduction thing' long ago to leave no traces.

4. An advanced craft, yet they have maps that pull out of the wall? This was before the computer era. Betty's type of map was of this type, a school house pull-down map like a window shade. Why not a computer screen map and why not near the navigation area of the craft and not just in the wall somewhere?

5. Pink dust? Nothing in the story talks about them dusting the Hills. Aliens take the trouble to give them amnesia, but forget to vacuum off the pink dust?

6. Advanced aliens using 1960s style amniocentesis equipment? I mean we now have ultrasound and other non-invasive imaging technology. Wouldn't they? Note that all these things are indicative of 1960s Earth tech, not of highly advanced alien tech many thousands of years ahead of us. Of course it wasn't well-known Earth tech at the times, so it must have been ET.


I could go on, but you get the idea.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.





[edit on 11/9/2008 by Badge01]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by ArMaP
A thing that I always thought if was a coincidence or not was their names, they had the same names as the Rubbles from the Flintstones, who were created a year before.


I think you're onto something here. There are no coincidences! Now if we can just find a correlation between other abductees and cartoon characters, maybe we can get to the bottom of this stuff. What about George and Jane Jetson?



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 07:01 PM
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Barney and Betty Hill have some problems. While it is a good story, it also parallels scenes from "the Outer Limits" TV series.

Her facts, often cited, are also shown on the show from just a couple of months to a few days before she mentions them. Barney had the same tendency in his descriptions of events or aliens. I'm not in a position to say they watched the show and then had these events occur to them, it's just a huge timeline issue.

As for the star map. It's about as bogus as anything can be claimed. You can draw any number of dots and match them to stars in any galaxy. Sorry, but the numbers are against you in examples such as this.

Absolutely enjoyed the comments about Carl Sagen. He had many political agendas of his own, he didn't need government pay to debunk anything. People had vivid disagreements with him, of which I still have letters from him about. He actually changed my mind about a couple of things but that is for a different thread.

Betty and Barney Hill were an inter-racial couple in a time when that was not sociably acceptable. They had tremendous pressure on them from their chosen actions. Whether this turned into some mental disorder that blurred TV fiction into real life event is for others to discuss. However, this is were I'd focus any research I was going to do.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by SamuelCalifornia

Okay. First and foremost, you mean the late Carl Sagan of Harvard, and ironically SETI

Oersted Medal (1990)
NASA Distinguished Public Service Medal (twice)
Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction (1978)
National Academy of Sciences Public Welfare Medal (1994)?

It may be well known to UFO buffs that he was ' employed' to debunk, but where is the evidence? Hynek had a change of heart and is entitled to do so, this shouldn't undermine Sagan's thoughts concerning the star map. Seriously, if the government wanted to debunk the Hills, they could easily get some lowly CIA scout to plant coke in Betty's car and bust her. Bingo. Drug head, hence unreliable. Wouldn't that be easier than having a payroll of respected scientists?


Yup that Carl Sagan. As for him being part of SETI.... my respect for SETI is somewhere near the bottom of the dung pile. I've seen many a spokesperson from SETI telling me intelligent life isn't visiting us because SETI would have known by now. Of course SETI are going to say that.... because they've wasted how much money trying to listen in and have found nothing. Unfortunately people think SETI are the be all and end all in the search for life in the universe and if they say they haven't found it yet then it doesn't exist and UFOs aren't real


Oh and you can show me all of the awards in the world pertaining to Carl Sagan.... that is exactly why he was chosen to be one of the chief debunkers... he had a fanatical following in the scientific community and some mis-guided respect for what he did which he used to push his agenda and the detriment to what we are trying to do.

Oh... and saying a CIA could plant coke in Betty Hill's car to try and discredit her and it would have just been easier to do that..... that is not proof of anything.... that's just clutching at straws to come up with any possible explaination to explain something away.



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by Badge01
 


While you do bring up some interesting details about the case, there are some details that stick out.
1. Betty and Barney gave nearly identical descriptions of what happened, and those details were different from Betty's dreams.
2. I think the confirmed radar report of an unknown object in the same area by Pease AFB gives this case the boost it needs.
3. Many people did the put the compass near the car. It was not only Betty.
4. Barney drove two hours to work and two hours home. Yes, he could have watched the series "The Outer Limits", but they did not watch TV. Also, I have seen the episode and the aliens described by the Hills look much different.
5. The evidence is overwhelming, and many prosecutors get convictions on much less evidence.
6. The Hill's were hard working people who did not want any publicity for what happened to them.

I would love to hear all the tapes the Hills made. The ones I have heard with the terrified Barney I will never forget.



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by kidflash2008
5. The evidence is overwhelming, and many prosecutors get convictions on much less evidence.
That is one thing I hate to see.

The fact that some people may get convicted with few evidences only shows that the judicial system is not an objective area but a subjective one, where some people are easily convicted while other people get acquitted despite evidences against it.



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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Yes yes, the guys invented the story. OK And WHY. WHY should someone make this up? What did they gain? To be called crazy? Do you want to debunk B&B hill story? Put some EFFORTS and debunk the whole story. I LOL at the people who take a piece of their story and try to debunk it. HEY! Debunk ALL the story, not its half, be FAIR. Explain ALL in B&B HIll story, ALL.

[edit on 12/9/2008 by internos]



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by Badge01
 

While you do bring up some interesting details about the case, there are some details that stick out.
1. Betty and Barney gave nearly identical descriptions of what happened, and those details were different from Betty's dreams.
2. I think the confirmed radar report of an unknown object in the same area by Pease AFB gives this case the boost it needs.
3. Many people did the put the compass near the car. It was not only Betty.
4. Barney drove two hours to work and two hours home. Yes, he could have watched the series "The Outer Limits", but they did not watch TV. Also, I have seen the episode and the aliens described by the Hills look much different.
5. The evidence is overwhelming, and many prosecutors get convictions on much less evidence.
6. The Hill's were hard working people who did not want any publicity for what happened to them.

I would love to hear all the tapes the Hills made. The ones I have heard with the terrified Barney I will never forget.

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

OK, let me go over your points.

1. On the identical reports, remember Betty said that Barney was out for a lot of the stuff that happened on the craft. He was dragged back to the car unconscious. The mythos of the story combines what Betty tells under hypnosis and what she dreamed. You have to be careful to tease out what she says happened where and when.
2. Yes, Pease AFB and the military are ALL OVER this case. I mean you look at the timeline and there was continued contact for a month and people were interviewed and telephone calls were monitored and the report has some very odd comments. (that's partially the basis for my theory that the Military stages some or all of this event or this experience)
3. OK, but there's no link between what happened and the car that would cause it to be magnetized. It's a 'soft' piece of evidence.
4. I agree, they didn't watch much TV, and the alien does look different. My point was that everyone says it wasn't possible. I'm just saying it was possible, though not likely. The idea is that we often settle for the second layer of info in this case. It's hard to get to the original story and the original timeline.
5.OK, here I disagree. The -amount- of seemingly highly strange evidence is overwhelming. But I don't think it should be looked at as additive, or supporting or cumulative. It's a series of things, some of which are strange, some of which seem like evidence because of the near impossibility of a prosaic explanation and some are just incomprehensible, and are grouped into the 'must be aliens' category, like the pink dust.
6. Hard working, no publicity. Sure. But were they manipulated? Were they deceived? Who knows. It's possible.

Again I'm not saying the case is -disproved-. It has some good points. But all is not as it seems on the surface and I just say be cautious and keep digging for the original info.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 12/9/2008 by Badge01]



posted on Sep, 12 2008 @ 11:57 PM
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I believe them.The star map is what convinced me and the fact that they didnt get rich behind it. Betty & Barney Hill R.I.P



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 06:04 AM
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I admit, in all honesty, that i'm not objective when i talk about this story.
I evaluate it basing my judgements on my feelings, and this is not how a serious research should be done: i focus on feelings rather than on facts. Badge01, i admire your serious work on this case, your points cannot be ignored, thank you for your excellent contribute to this thread. I didn't know the fact that she was an UFO literature reader: this casts a bad light to the story. Doesn't disprove it but it's a point that can't be ignored. The star map has always been a controversial evidence: the match is emazing, but what we should know is how many other star system it could match, and in my opinion the chances are almost unlimited. Under regressive hypnosis one says what he / she BELIEVES to have seen: not necessarly what he / she actually did see. I definately need to read more on this story: there are too many points on both sides.
Peace



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 07:18 AM
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reply to post by SamuelCalifornia
 
WHY ?
Why do you have this attitude? logical and mathematical you are so wrong.
Feel petty for you, narrow minded persons.
Really honestly do!.




posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 09:40 AM
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This is really interesting post and I've enjoyed reading the commentary from both sides. I guess the real question is what would constitute proof either way?



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by internos
 

As someone has said, simply reading about the case, no matter how in-depth, is not the same as -researching it-.

To me that means going there, re-interviewing the witness(es), and even traveling the route they took with a timer and a stop watch.

I was thinking about it this morning.

If we had a small team go the route and calculate exactly what it would take to arrive at the destination two hours later than they usually drove it, this would be substantial new information.

For instance when it's late and you're distracted (I don't think they had cruise control as standard on a non-luxury car back in the early 60s) it's easy to travel 10mph under the speed limit and not know it.

So 10 minutes every hour for a ten hour drive would be -exactly- two hours or 120 minutes "late".

But let's make that 2 mph under. So 20 minutes.

Add into that the time it takes to pull over, get the dog out, smoke a cigarette let the dog do his business, load everyone up. Then figure about 6 stops for the dog. Figure another 30 minutes.

Then we have the short trip down a dirt road and getting lost, and that's another 10-20 minutes.

That right there accounts for about an hour.

Then we'd have the crew do a re-enactment of what Betty says happened in her dream (or her hypnotic recall) and time that. Include the time for set up and the 'amnio' and time for the map leafing through "the Book" and the argument over keeping the Book. Add in dragging the Barney "stand-in" back to the car, and the mucking around before, looking through the binocs and everything.

See where I'm going? If one could illustrate that it's -very- easy (or not) to waste two hours in a ten hour trip (Was it 10 or 12 hours coming back from their destination?). Whatever the outcome, it would be new data and it might be possible to demonstrate they simply didn't have time to be stopped, pulled from the car, marched into the woods, probed and then returned to the car in that time frame.

OR...it might show that they did have time if they pushed it a little.

Now you might say that there were other factors - the aliens could 'pause' time. But that's for later. First get the new research.

Does this make sense?

It makes you wonder why the TV show ignore this or the Allagash abduction and look at less interesting cases, instead, where they really can't do any additional research. Maybe someone with media connections could propose that they do a show like this on or about the anniversary of the incident?

------
Edit to add a comment. What would constitute 'proof'?

Again, we'll never have proof of the veracity of this event. But what an investigator would do would be to do this re-enactment and try to recreate the trace evidence and see if they could make it work. Leave out all the 'factoid's that can not be turned into scientific evidence, but don't ignore them. Skip the stuff about Barney seeing the Outer Limits episode - it can't be recreated or proven - that's right throw out the 'evidence' on BOTH sides that is not probative.

On the poster who wondered about the possibility for 'humanoid' life, I think there's a not much of a reasonable doubt that the Universe does select for LIFE. The question is, are there pressures (scientific, evolutionary) that select for INTELLIGENCE. To me, there may be a LOT of life. But is there a lot of intelligent life and is there any sentient life that can get off planet and become truly space faring?



[edit on 13/9/2008 by Badge01]



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 11:33 AM
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Betty was a very candid and nice person, according to the researchers who interview her trought the years. She was always open to tell details of her story, but she was never a friend of make publicity or marketing of it.

And until her last day, she maintained her story.



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 12:11 PM
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OK, went back and checked a couple sources and it was a 4 hour trip that seemed to take 7 hours.

Wiki


Missing time

On November 25, 1961, the Hills were again interviewed at length by NICAP members, this time C.D. Jackson and Robert E. Hohman.

Having read Webb's initial report, Jackson and Hohman had many questions for the Hills. One of their main questions was about the length of the trip. Neither Webb nor the Hills had noted that, though the drive should have taken about four hours, they did not arrive at home until seven hours after their departure. When Hohman and Jackson noted this discrepancy to the Hills, the couple was stunned, having no explanation (a frequently reported circumstance in alleged alien abduction cases that some have called "missing time"). However, Betty was able to recall an image of the moon shining on the ground.

As Clark writes, despite "all their efforts the Hills could recall almost nothing of the 35 miles between Indian Head and Ashland.


Now, though the title of the book seems to imply this Missing Time is 'evidence', it isn't. It's merely puzzling.

In addition people like to say 'oh Betty was a nice person and stuck to her story'. Well this isn't evidence either. (In fact the story was embellished or added to a few times by Betty. She added what she dreamed and they added other things when they came up. Some things were added by Fowler and later by Friedman under the guise of additional info). The info about the pink powder was added, and the car being allegedly magnetized was added later. Finally, Betty continued to have 'sightings' of a more or less 'iffy' nature.

Does her character prove or disprove her story? No.

Is it very odd that she had those little 'gritty' factoids like them checking for false teeth or the scrapes on Barney's shoe? Yes it is very odd. But people often have dreams about their teeth. Barney could have scraped his shoe by crawling on his hands and knees.

Is it odd that she found a pile of leaves on her table with her earrings in them. Well this is SO odd, that it makes me think that there might have been somnambulistic behavior going on. Someone was doing things that they were unaware of. I simply can't find a way to believe that the aliens would do this. However, it is possible that the Military is involved in this part. A lot of people came and went from their home during that period.

I'll be working up a timeline later.

If ANYONE has a copy of Fowler's book, please contact me in a U2U about getting or borrowing a copy of this book.

Good thread, guys!



posted on Sep, 13 2008 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by Badge01
 


I do admire the work you are doing, but I wish the tapes of the hypnosis were available. The family does not want them released because of some personal things in them. The portions I have heard are terrifying and would have a big impact on this case.
I think we look at the evidence and come to two different conclusions. This is what it is about, and I hope others read the in depth books about this fascinating case.
I stake my reputation on this one and will say I believe Betty and Barney Hill were abducted by an alien craft and examined by aliens.



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