The Evidence For Jesus' Existence Is Nothing But Hearsay

reply to post by OldThinker


What is your point?

You mean to tell me all the other great historical events that happened that were recorded around the same time they happened, were recorded because the people of those times had word processors...but in Jesus' times, they did not?

It does not matter the medium my friend, a man of Jesus' magnitude and his miracles and popularity should not(by historical and technological advancements) be subject to time. When great things happen...they are recorded nearly immediately, at least not decades afterward...which says a lot. And this has been happening since before Jesus' days...when word processors obviously existed.

I stand by it.
I am sure a man named Jesus existed, maybe he was not everything he was portrayed to be in the Bible, but I believe he existed, or...at least someone who inspired the story of Jesus. He may not have been Jesus, but he may be where Jesus' story came from.

Originally posted by Manasseh
If you don't believe in Jesus,

Then you don't believe the bible.

That's right...I do not believe the Bible. It is riddled with contradictory information.

If you don't believe the bible, then
you questioning if God exists.

I question if the Christian god exists. Any being who is supposed t be as powerful and perfect as the Christians portray their God...CANNOT make so many mistakes and contradictions in his "own words."

Tell you what.

You want to be God?

I have no such desire.

Choose the time of your death.

Otherwise, you should trust God.

Trusting the Christian God is like trusting a mad man...because surely, only a psychotic man can contradict himself and STILL believe he's making sense. Not so?

It's all about faith.

And this is the problem. Faith is important...but following everyone's else's faith blindly is basically...well...stupid.

Enough people have faith that Jesus existed,

And faith is all they have to go by on it. Which is not enough for me when dealing with things of this magnitude.

that you will never turn them all against Jesus.

I do not know what is the OPs wish, but I do not wish to turn them against anything. My only wish, is that they use more brain power when it comes to decisions of what you let guide your life. And trust me, if all the Christians of the world really followed the Bible they think they're following...Christians would be considered, barbaric, selfish, ignorant and evil. It's a shame many people already consider Christians this...and the Christians don't even follow their religion the way their own religion asks them to.

Arrogance.

You say we're arrogant...I say you're blind.

Jesus will judge you.

Let him.

I hope He has more faith in you than
you do in Him.

If Jesus is who they say he is...he is very wise. If he is very wise...I'm sure he would understand clearly why so many doubt him.

Good luck.

Luck and destiny go hand in hand...don't they?

[edit on 3-9-2008 by sdrawkcabII]

Deep breath guys...

Let's not make this ugly...

Maybe a good nights sleep will do all some good, ok?

OT

Originally posted by EricD
Eric.

[edit on 3-9-2008 by EricD]

What he said.

Click here for more information.

OK...I'm trying not too be too sarcastic here...really!

Let me see...?

No PRINTING PRESS?

No CARBON COPY?

No WORD PROCESSOR?

No COMMADOR 64? (sp?)

No COMPUTER?

No TV?

No INTERNET?

You are right!!!! What was I thinking?

OT

Got to go and play my Tiger Woods Golf...

PS: Come on now, think it through...i'll chalk that one up to an over-reaction, ok?

Wow, you are impossible, nice try in trying to make me look dumb though... but you missed the point yet again. There were writers back then when Jesus supposedly lived, why did no one write about him back when he was alive??? There is no written anything that dates back to the days when he was alive.... Do you get it now???

What's your point? The whole things based on faith..get it?

Not when you are in an argument, not when it has influence on the entire world... When that is the case, you can say bye to faith, now you need proof.

Where are the hundreds of documents by Jewish and Roman historians saying that he didn't exist? Don't you think that some first or second century historian would try to provide some evidence or at least an argument for an invention of Christ by the first Christians?

where are the ones saying he did exist, but from first hand experience, and not hearsay???

Originally posted by Godwatchingus
unnecessary comment removed

What he said!


ADMIN EDIT: removed the quote as it was a blatant T&C violation.

[edit on 28-10-2008 by Crakeur]

To anyone who questions whether Jesus existed...........

(By the way I don't consider myself Christian but I believe in Jesus and his good will)

-No figure in history has been discussed more often than Jesus Christ

-No one's name itself, is uttered more often than Jesus Christ's name

-It's been over 2000 years since Jesus, yet his name and legacy are around most of us all day....(you might not even realize it)

He existed.

Where are the hundreds of documents by Jewish and Roman historians saying that he didn't exist? Don't you think that some first or second century historian would try to provide some evidence or at least an argument for an invention of Christ by the first Christians?

where are the ones saying he did exist, but from first hand experience, and not hearsay???

A) It is YOUR contention that the lack of contemporaneous documentation is evidence of non-existence. It is YOUR responsibility to defend that position. Try answering the question of why there weren't scores of attempts by first and second century historians who were writing about the myth of a Christ.

B) Christ had an extensive extended family and social network. How was his being imaginary suppressed? No one said 'uhhhh, I was there. He didn't exist. Ask anyone.'? What about 'Hey Joseph, some nuts are saying that you paid for a tomb for this dude that never existed."? How about 'Peter, all those guys getting killed by lions? They say that they are worshiping someone you knew. Crazy huh?'?

C) Can you show us contemporaneous records for the other people that were crucified for being political agitators under Pontius Pilate? If you can't are you saying that none existed?


Eric

Does it really matter whether he existed or not?

The message is what really matters, and I don't see anything wrong with what is written in the New Testament, It's full of wisdom, and has helped alot of people who lost hope in their lives.

reply to post by AlexG141989


Interesting post AlexG

The thing about Christianity is that like most religions it's based on faith, you have to believe Jesus was here. Many Christians accept the Bible as the immovable "Word of God".

It shouldn't be surprising that real evidence for Jesus is hard to find or is, for the most part, circumstantial. We're dealing with someone who lived 2000 years ago and whose story would be placed under the scrutiny of the early Christians, the Romans, and eventually the Catholics (so much of the written evidence may have been altered or thrown out as heresy). However I believe there was such a person who the people of the time romanticized after his death in order to start this new religion. In other words it was a real person, a sort of street prophet and rebel who stirred things up for a little while and then some people got together and honored him with a fantastic group of tales, some of which survive as Gospels and others which have been tossed out by the Romans and early Catholic Church...

Lack of historical evidence will do nothing to dampen the faith of most Christians because its all on belief, not logic or facts...

You're right in that a man named "Jesus" had never existed. When Esau/Isa was alive, he didn't go by "Jesus." The title Jesus was given to him by the Greeks, when the Bible was written in Greek to signify him as "god." Since the Greek word for god is "Zeus," he was called "ZeZeus" or "The God." ZeZues, over time came to be pronounced Jezues/Jesus; with the exception of current day Greeks who still refer to him as "Zezeus."

Even though people call him "Christ," like it's his name, it is a title given to him, rather than his name. "Christ" is also Greek meaning "annointed," and pronounced "Christos." Once again, current day Greeks also refer to him as "Zezues Christos"

Now were there ever records of a man named Jesus, at the time of his life? Probably not. But have you researched Isa?

[edit on 4-9-2008 by DJMessiah]

the only thing I can say about this is.....

you will ALWAYS be a skeptic until you have a personal experience! You can argue scripture all the day long.. and come up with a million and 1 excuses.. but the thing that they can NOT take away ...is.....



Your personal testimony. A day that something extraordinary happened to you and someon spoke to you in a way that nothing else in the world did. Not friends, family, lovers or spouse. That day will be the day you say in earnest of heart and humble humility and desperate to know the truth if Jesus is a myth or not..

I will give you my life God if you can be to me everything the world can not. Should you be as real as the air I breath and if I've done something wrong against you, I'm sorry. Make yourself real to me God in a way nothing else can or ever will.

If you can say these words, met with the conditions state above, then it shouldn't be long before you will join those that are willing to die for what they believe for what they have experienced.

[edit on 4-9-2008 by Komodo]

reply to post by mhc_70


WOW!! You would have to go back way more than 100 yrs for there not to be written documentation or proof of the recent historical figures. We have scaps of clothing and letters written in their own hand. We even have historical proof of figures as far back as 2000 years so I have no idea what you ment by your comment, and I don' t think that you do either.

Personally i believe in a higher power (can't prove it just a gut feel), but I FIRMLY do NOT believe in the bible and Christianity... basically religion as a whole. If i was a Deity, and i'm not i would want you to believe in yourself not believe in me. People go much further with a little self belief.

OT so far you have posted 17,18 (counted but not exact) times .
Thats quite a bit in 4 pages, i see you a very passionate.
You seem to defending your opinions strongly, i'm guessn Alex has hit a nail.
And in My opinion i stand firmly behind Alex and in what he has shown us.

Good thread (yay first post ever, thinkn bout joining but unsure)

To prove behind any reasonable doubt that Jesus did exist is a very difficult task.
Clergyman will tell you that you only need faith; Materialist will tell you Jesus is just a legend comparable to previous one.
I for one never satisfied with this 2 help, so I read a book which is historical and very close to the date of the supposed time of Jesus. “Against Heresies Vol2” written by Irenaeus of Lyons Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul ( for people that don’t know this theologian check this link: en.wikipedia.org...)
On the second volume of his work, Irenaeus complain about the belief of Jesus been crucified during the 33th year of his life and his ministry following his baptism.
What Irenaeus trying to say is that Jesus lived a long life and never was crucified, the corruption of the work of Jesus on the Gnostics was also one of his denunciations.
You have to read all the Volumes if you’re really want to grasp the already very corrupt gospel at that time. Irenaeus also mention a lost or unknown gospel that proves the real history of Jesus.

It is all there, you don’t need a priest or a debunker to show it to you.
Now regarding the issue about this thread, well you have to admit that for someone that is portrait as a legend, you had a lot of people arguing about his real teaching then about his existence.
Kacou.

Originally posted by Societalgnorance
To anyone who questions whether Jesus existed...........

(By the way I don't consider myself Christian but I believe in Jesus and his good will)

-No figure in history has been discussed more often than Jesus Christ

-No one's name itself, is uttered more often than Jesus Christ's name

-It's been over 2000 years since Jesus, yet his name and legacy are around most of us all day....(you might not even realize it)

He existed.

I've heard it preached in almost the same way once before. Except it went something like this ...and something that requires some deep thinking or investigation...if you so desire.

~Never in the history of the world has they ever been more people preaching about 1 man and repeat his message over and over...

~more books in the world written about 1 man and his teachings.

~1 specific holiday and it's message the world over about 1 man (Christ-mas)

~More songs in the world sung or wrote about 1 man

~more private schools, colleges and universities established about 1 man's teachings and principles.

~thousands of people through decades which didn't even know each other wrote about 1 man thousands of years before which came true.

~1 single book, written of sacred writings, translated in hundreds of different languages to help bring a message of hope to the nations established by 1 man.

~1 religion more persecuted in all of the world since the 3rd century.

~more people have tried to disprove 1 man's existence and became convert over 1 message.

~timeless teachings which are deeply embedded within the world over, are still used this every second, even though we may or may not express outwardly, but deep within us are part of us and our humanity to each other.. 'the Golden Rule...treat other human beings as YOU would like to be treated as a human being."~by 1 man

~When people all over the world that are faced with sudden hardship, that wold not pray ever, sudden find themselves reciting these very words as if they've known them since childhood..."Our Father, which art in heaven...."~was established by 1 man....

~thousands of marriages/relationships that are bought together again , just before, during or after divorce/breakup because of 1 man

~more unique titles give more than to this 1 man. Titles and Names

~A nation, perhaps the youngest in the world, became the strongest in the world in just 200 years, because of people so grateful to have freedom of religion, freedom of speech ...free from tyranny they gave Glory and Honor to 1 man by establishing law for the people..by the people that ALL men should be created equal. And.. to this every day .. nations FLOCK to come to this nation because deep in their hearts regardless of how hard the journey to get here.........it will still be better than where they are, even thou others may try to tear it's pillars down....it's the people in it that make it was it is today .. and forever..............just because of ........1 man

The list can go on... His name is: Christ Jesus.

ever heard of archeology, my friend?
www.allaboutarchaeology.org...
you can google and there are many sites.

and, just for the record you dont know, there´s an agenda going on, with plans of massive depopulation plans and to destroy all religions for a
New World Order pseudo´sprituality´.(the ´new age ´movement´is just a beginning), which will be easier to control.

cheers

reply to post by AlexG141989
According to Flavius Josephus the legandary History that is a Jew and not a believer in Jesus, spoke very highly of him... you can read it for yourself. If this doesn't work...

Remember that is why it is called "faith"...

God Bless,
Michael
www.thegodcode.org...


Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII Chapter 3
www.earlyjewishwritings.com...

reply to post by AlexG141989

How strange you would say this, but understandable I suppose. However, you are totally wrong and there is lots of evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar. It is NOT historians who propagate the 'Christ-myth' theories. Here are a few proofs:

1) "No serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus." Otto Betz (not proof, but I liked what he said.)

2) Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian, Writing of the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome. His misspelling of Christ as "Christus", was a common error made by pagan writers. "Christus, the founder of the name was PUT TO DEATH BY PONTIOUS PILATE."

3)Lucian of Samosata, a Greek satirist of the latter half of the 2nd century, Lucian spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians... "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--the distinquished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account..."

This can all be found in the book THE NEW EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT by Josh McDowell. I'm not gonna bore everyone and keep quoting, but there are also: Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion, and many others.

To state that Jesus never existed is as ignorant as saying that Caesar or Alexander the Great never existed. This has long been a closed argument and I'm surprised anyone brings it up anymore.

Argue with me that he is not the son of God and I will understand that...but argue that he never existed??? My friend, as nice as I can say this, that is just plain ignorant.

Also, please remember that all the sources that I have sited HATED Christians! They had no reason to lie to perpetuate a myth of a man that they despised. Think about it, really.

If you want to know more please go to: www.westarkchurchofchrist.org...

Say everything is a lie and you might as well throw out your history books and beliefs about any other major historical figures. If you have something against Christians and you think it is a stupid religion, well then fine, but don't say Jesus never existed because you would be wrong.

I've studied every major religion in the world and rarely, if ever, do I come across someone who believes jesus is a myth. The ressurection? Sure...but NOT THE MAN.

Jesus, the man, the teacher, and rabbi existed. End of story.

See? This is one of those things I can't stand about the world these days. No one is held accountable for this use, or misuse, of words. It's sad that so many seem so stupid.

The term "Hearsay" (Hear + Say) requires at least one Hearing and then repeating.

If a Policeman takes a report from a First Hand witness of an event, it's NOT HEARSAY!

The accounts of the life of Jesus are not at all Hearsay.