Well this is an argument that won't be solved until death but to humor people ill reply. In all honest how many reports and evidence is actually written at the time of the persons existence...you say that the people wrote this after his death and that nothing was written at the time he was alive? Well sorry but the media wasn't quite then what it is now...people write stuff down but it gets lost...when the people that knew and were close to Jesus decided they wanted everyone to know the story of Christ they were sure to rewrite(im sure) and record all events that were witnessed...also keep in mind that if the Kings of time really hated Jesus to the point of killing him they probably didn't want to keep to many records of Him...its evident that through time people that were looked up to higher than the king or as a religious symbol have pretty much had proof of their existance destroyed so to keep people from continuing worship...so why not one of the biggest religious figure ever? Well anyway you believe what you want and ill believe as i choose and when we die...well my way just seems to have a happier end eh?

If you don't believe in Jesus,

Then you don't believe the bible.

If you don't believe the bible, then
you questioning if God exists.

Tell you what.

You want to be God?

Choose the time of your death.

Otherwise, you should trust God.

It's all about faith.

Enough people have faith that Jesus existed,

that you will never turn them all against Jesus.

Arrogance.

Jesus will judge you.

I hope He has more faith in you than
you do in Him.

Good luck.


[edit on 3-9-2008 by Manasseh]

Great OP post, and I would say that though I lean towards the historical existence of Jesus, I would also add that we have no idea who he really was or what he really said. Lets just say that he really did exist. The fact is that the Gospels were orally transmitted for at least 70 years until a single word was penned. Then the synoptic gospels all pointed to one single source. Add to this the fact that none of the disciples would have understood or spoken Greek as it was the language only of the more educated Hebrews. In fact, Jesus' followers would have spoken Aramaic and yet the first NT was written in Greek.

A thoughtful person would ask the question of why a God who supposedly wrote such a book that has no substantiation in fact (and was sloppily thrown together and edited by councils, popes, etc) would require someone to put their eternal faith in something like this. The God who made all the universe, viruses, spiders, weird creatures of every kind would exclusively and only choose to reveal himself in a microscopic sliver of time, geography, and culture??

People have to be on drugs to expect others to adamantly follow this one ancient work in exclusion of all other knowledge, wisdom, and philosophies.:

[edit on 3-9-2008 by whatsup]

[edit on 3-9-2008 by whatsup]

It's ironic to me.

People don't question the story about King Herod killing all the first-born.

Why do you think he killed the firstborn??

okay. so the bible was written by the Jews. The Jews don't believe in the bible. hmm okay.

There is no historical documentation of Jesus...okay

Jesus has some metaphysical powers(water to wine, walking on water, blind man healed et c) that are similar to so many ancient myths and stories it isn't even funny!

from my research, and without fear of anyone else's opinion, I can say that Jesus was and is a metaphor. He is a symbol of many things, and the bible is truly the ultimate fairy tale collection. There are so many references to preceding events and cultural traditions in history, that it is uncanny!

You also have to realize where the bible came from and what type of people constructed and scribed it. These people spoke primarily and metaphors and would often exaggerate stories. They weren't a society that debunked people's stories and they weren't a society that was necessarily interested in the facts. They were a type of people who liked to tell stories to give a deeper message than the details of their stories.

I think you have it all wrong. You have the right spirit though, just research harder.
First off all the name alone jesus didnt even exist when "He" did. I bet you did all the research you could about this fictional character/name/story just like the word god, these are all human derived names and traits we have fabricated from our minds to create this so called "perfect". The real stories are so interesting, it defies ones foundation of thought. God is and christ are humanized names. Meaninig historicaly they were viewed as opposite what we know today. Not mental exaggeration but actual factual events. Look up the evidence for Yeshua (jesus)or the four letters(in english) thats is supposedly forbidden to speak or write without permission(which is why I didnt type it, but other people are a little more lawless, so of course its on the net, I am trusting the ancestors on this one.) or better yet since some of never use a book to confirm, heres your favorite, wiki, I dont know how to insert the link so type {jesus original aramaic name}. They never explain enough for me, but its stimulating how they break down names. Language isnt as valuable as it was. Literaly having value in our physical world not just assigning sounds to represent things. Its more intuitive and musical.
Back to the point, research the name Yeshua and see what has been said. First they say "oral tradition isnt evidence", okay, so we go back in time and etch in stone and they say "we cant decode this". We draw it out they say," we think this means something else, or these people had mental disabilities which made them see things or its a metaphor or the drugs." We develop written language and they say "awww, this couldnt be, its impossible" everything is impossible to a non-believer. Its never enough. The only thing they believe is science, and since it hasnt been proven scientifically it worthless.?. I laugh at the fact that the are just now coming to the conclusions that matter is being born out of nothing. The greatest scientist say that god can only be behing the universes hyper-intricate curtain and materia. "its impossible" did you read that the same time you thought it, funny. Do your research not scientifically but all avenues. Im reading a book titled "Biography of Zero" and they describe when zero was first understood and accepted, people had theoroms and equations that could prove how God exists. They proved god existed with \one simple number like 0, and good ol' sophisticated science took the life of some of our greatest thinkers by having them slain by people who were confined to Ideas and theories , rather than "universe{al} facts. a couple thousand years of that doesnt matter though, we will have a new view and theory tommorow.
I love knowledge and the results, Enlightenment.
Peace and sorry for typos.

FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, the authors documented the facts AFTER...the events...

Pls tell me how to do it beforehand, Chris Angel?

OT still confused?

Dude, that is not what I am saying... today, a story on the news gets covered at most, at least a couple hours after the fact, not decades after it initially occured. Geeze, I can't believe I had to explain that

Manasseh - I don't know wether to take you seriously. Wasn't it you that made that thread in The Gray Area, stating that a space shuttle was going to blow up on re-entry again soon??? And used that as the reason why we should follow your God??? Yeah, I don't think you can be taken seriously anymore.

Dude, that is not what I am saying... today, a story on the news gets covered at most, at least a couple hours after the fact, not decades after it initially occured. Geeze, I can't believe I had to explain that



OK...I'm trying not too be too sarcastic here...really!

Let me see...?

No PRINTING PRESS?

No CARBON COPY?

No WORD PROCESSOR?

No COMMADOR 64? (sp?)

No COMPUTER?

No TV?

No INTERNET?

You are right!!!! What was I thinking?

OT

Got to go and play my Tiger Woods Golf...

PS: Come on now, think it through...i'll chalk that one up to an over-reaction, ok?

Of course it's hearsay.

What's your point? The whole things based on faith..get it?

Wow. What a ridiculous bit of tripe.

Forget the documents that were written within decades of Christ's death and resurrection, what on earth would cause people who lived while people who were contemporaries of an imagined Christ to become martyrs under horrific prosecution?

What sort of an insane conspiracy would be needed to invent Christ and have everyone who would have known him or of him (or his family) to go along with that conspiracy while it inspired such devoted followers that they would give up their possessions and their lives for Him?

Where are the hundreds of documents by Jewish and Roman historians saying that he didn't exist? Don't you think that some first or second century historian would try to provide some evidence or at least an argument for an invention of Christ by the first Christians?

This argument is laughable. Lack of contemporaneous records is not proof of non-existence.

There are many better (but equally flawed) arguments against the validity of historical Christianity. Choose one of them. This one is a joke.

Eric


[edit on 3-9-2008 by EricD]