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South Ossetia Death Toll May Be 45, Not 1500 or 2000
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South Ossetia Death Toll May Be 45, Not 1500 or 2000
www.businessweek.com
(visit the link for the full news article)
The figure appears to be about four dozen. Quoting a hospital where virtually all the dead appear to have been taken, since the morgue was without electricity, The Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Osborn puts the figure at 45; and Human Rights Watch says it was about 44. There may have been an additional few victims whose bodies did not reach the hospital.
Related News Links:
www.guardian.co.uk
From www.guardian.co.uk...
Whoa that changes things to a degree if true. If the Russians have been exaggerating those figures to incite rage among the South Ossetians, it looks like they succeeded.
On the other hand, it could just be the media conspiracy again.
www.businessweek.com
(visit the link for the full news article)
Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".
Neistat said that doctors at Tskhinvali hospital had provided figures that 273 wounded people had been treated there during the conflict and a total of 44 dead people had been brought to the city morgue. Russian and South Ossetian officials have claimed that 1,400 people were killed in the first day of fighting, mostly in Tskhinvali.
Whoa that changes things to a degree if true. If the Russians have been exaggerating those figures to incite rage among the South Ossetians, it looks like they succeeded.
On the other hand, it could just be the media conspiracy again.
www.businessweek.com
(visit the link for the full news article)
You mean the Russians might be lying, and the United States wasn't backing a genocidal maniac? Wait, this could quite possibly mean that Russia was
just lying, making excuses, and attempting a cold-hearted land grab. No way. I imagine the usual crew will be here in droves any minute now to provide
all kinds of Wikipedia and YouTube evidence to defend the peaceful and loving Russia and its prime minister, a beloved former member of the
humanitarian agency known as the KGB.
And when that fails, I'm sure we'll hear all about how Russia is now somehow also a U.S. puppet state and acted purely by U.S. instructions. Or wait, maybe it'll be our fault that Russia blew Georgia to crap because of the missile shield. Yeah, that's it... missile shield. Missile shield justifies everything from Russia attacking people, to Russia threatening to nuke earth, to Russia feeding infants to *actual bears.* In fact, any random Russian should be allowed to kill any random person from any other country on Earth at any point now, because Missile Shield Missile Shield American Puppet Missile Shield Blah.
Forgive me for my rant, but hopefully it'll be apparent now that their are bad guys in the world besides the "Unholy Scourge of America."
And when that fails, I'm sure we'll hear all about how Russia is now somehow also a U.S. puppet state and acted purely by U.S. instructions. Or wait, maybe it'll be our fault that Russia blew Georgia to crap because of the missile shield. Yeah, that's it... missile shield. Missile shield justifies everything from Russia attacking people, to Russia threatening to nuke earth, to Russia feeding infants to *actual bears.* In fact, any random Russian should be allowed to kill any random person from any other country on Earth at any point now, because Missile Shield Missile Shield American Puppet Missile Shield Blah.
Forgive me for my rant, but hopefully it'll be apparent now that their are bad guys in the world besides the "Unholy Scourge of America."
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
www.russiatoday.com...
The above link states that all the hospitals in the city have been destroyed by Georgian bombardment.
So, what gives?
One possibility is that the Russians have grossly overestimated the death toll. Another possibility is that the Russians have intentionally grossly overestimated the death toll. Another possibility is that the dead were taken to southern Russia along with most of the wounded and the refugees.
Maybe the dead have not been found? Has excavation of the rubble and the search for survivors even commenced? Did anyone bother to look for people in the rubble, or was it right into the fighting without any search and rescue? I haven't read anything to that effect in the news. I imagine some contingent of Russians must have been conducting relief efforts, maybe they have a separate process for the dead besides dumping them in the civilian hospital?
I don't know...
This conflict is nothing if not confusing.
I certainly don't want to vilify Russia without cause, but it seems quite plausible that they exaggerated the death toll. Isn't this always what happens in war?
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
I know, this is frustrating as hell. But all we have is the fricken NEWS to go by!
Any ATS member care to independently finance an ATS team to go into the war zone and find out for us? (and you might take maloy with you to translate...) Heck, maybe you'll see a Russian-made UFO laser beaming Georgian tanks or something.
WO, yeah I remember them saying that the Georgians bombed at least one hospital. This is a weird. one.
Any ATS member care to independently finance an ATS team to go into the war zone and find out for us? (and you might take maloy with you to translate...) Heck, maybe you'll see a Russian-made UFO laser beaming Georgian tanks or something.
WO, yeah I remember them saying that the Georgians bombed at least one hospital. This is a weird. one.
Originally posted by mattifikation
I'm sure we'll hear all about how Russia is now somehow also a U.S. puppet state and acted purely by U.S. instructions.
Wow, that would be a cool plot twist. And then Obama could visit Georgia and trip over some rubble and hit his head, so he can get concussed and have amnesia.
Then he can be flown to General Hospital and doctored up by GQ models, nursed (pun intended) by overly dramatic women with big hooters, and the ratings would knock American Idol right off the charts.
Housewives everywhere would love you for it.
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Maybe the dead have not been found? Has excavation of the rubble and the search for survivors even commenced?
So then how did Russia get its figure if the bodies have not been found?
And if that is the case, then there could be starving survivors and dead amongst the wreckage, how can Russia justify advancing toward the Georgian capital when the claim they went into Georgia to protect Russian citizens but are leaving them behind? Why wouldn’t they work at searching for those surviving Russian citizens they were so worried about? Maybe because they weren’t Russians but instead Georgians that were granted Russian citizenship a few years back so that Russia could pull a play directly from the Nazi playbook and invade a nation to steal it's land under the guise of duty to it's citizens there.
The whole thing stinks.
Everyday I am more and more convinced the Soviets have been planning this exact invasion scenario for years. They are getting what they wanted and we are showing that we have grown into a nation weaklings.
We are going to split hairs on human lives? I get what this thread is saying, but it is revolting to me that only a few civilians getting gunned-down
by sponsored-terrorism is somehow less of a war crime.
[edit on 17-8-2008 by pluckynoonez]
[edit on 17-8-2008 by pluckynoonez]
reply to post by pluckynoonez
It isn't any less revolting, but it does change the "who do we believe" factor to a degree. That's kinda what I meant in the OP. But yeah, a war crime needs to be punished at 1 like it does at a million Iraqis.
It isn't any less revolting, but it does change the "who do we believe" factor to a degree. That's kinda what I meant in the OP. But yeah, a war crime needs to be punished at 1 like it does at a million Iraqis.
Originally posted by pluckynoonez
We are going to split hairs on human lives?
It isn’t about that, it is about the lies. If they are lying about that then what else?
I don’t understand why so many are ready to support the Soviets in this. Is it because they are the perceived enemy of the US?
Never trust a politician to tell the truth, especially a KGB Soviet.
I get what this thread is saying, but it is revolting to me that only a few civilians getting gunned-down by sponsored-terrorism is somehow less of a war crime.
A war crime? ALL war is a crime. Until everyone understands that it nothing will change and whining about will get you nowhere.
War happens, deal with it.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
So then how did Russia get its figure if the bodies have not been found?
Well, if that is what happened, they probably got their estimates the same way we get ours in the wake of natural disasters - they use formulas, probably plugging in factors like population density, the munitions used, the sorts of cover around, the number of elderly/infirm/children, etc..
That would be my guess - if the Russians did make a guess, that would be the basis for it.
And if that is the case, then there could be starving survivors and dead amongst the wreckage, how can Russia justify advancing toward the Georgian capital when the claim they went into Georgia to protect Russian citizens but are leaving them behind?
Yeah, I find that unlikely.
More likely is that either a.) there weren't that many dead to begin with, or b.) the dead weren't all in that hospital where the reporter went to research his story.
I'd say it's a coin toss at this point, as to which is more probable...
..invade a nation to steal it's land under the guise of duty to it's citizens there.
I dunno about that. It seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through for such a small prize - the region has no resources to speak of, and its only real value appears to be strategic in terms of force projection and resource transportation. The Russians didn't need it, but maybe they needed us to not have access to it?
If it was some strategic play, I would say it's for the purpose of resource denial, not resource exploitation. Just a guess on my part...
We would do well to remember that the Russians typically play a mean game of chess, on the micro and the macro level. If they're up to something as insidious and complicated as you suggest, it's probably a pretty well thought out plan.
I also think that there's a strong possibility that the timing of their troop movement had something to do without our plans for Iran.
They are getting what they wanted and we are showing that we have grown into a nation weaklings.
What is it that you think they wanted?
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
According to this article most of the seriously wounded were taken to Moscow for treatment.
According to this one makeshift hospitals have been hurriedly set up in the wake of the attacks in
South Ossetia.
Obviously, we can't independently confirm either of those articles.
Frankly, and personally, after following this conflict as closely as I could since its genesis, I have to conclude that both sides have lied to the press numerous times about matters of varying importance. There's been a total lack of transparency since the start, sadly.
[edit on 8/17/2008 by AceWombat04]
Obviously, we can't independently confirm either of those articles.
Frankly, and personally, after following this conflict as closely as I could since its genesis, I have to conclude that both sides have lied to the press numerous times about matters of varying importance. There's been a total lack of transparency since the start, sadly.
[edit on 8/17/2008 by AceWombat04]
reply to post by Symbiote
reply to post by cavscout
I agree with both of you, I guess I did not express myself clearly enough. If this is true than it is still a provocation, and Russia's response "disproportionate" (redefined for the ages). I agree, the lies have been amazing. But I tend to not trust Bush/Rice/Cheney/CNN/FOX, call me crazy, but whatever they say, the opposite must be true. I am more inclined to think this story is bunk, until otherwise backed up somehow. I still say, on a side note, that any civilian killed by sponsored-terrorism is a disgusting war crime. One, one hundred, one hundred thousand, does not matter. And the US is a big sponsor of such atrocities. Somehow "humanitarian toll" means something when...well, let's just say you can't arm Buddhist monks; so letting them die in shallow water is our policy, no humanitarian concern there. Okay Im rambling now. Pissed off and rambling.
reply to post by cavscout
I agree with both of you, I guess I did not express myself clearly enough. If this is true than it is still a provocation, and Russia's response "disproportionate" (redefined for the ages). I agree, the lies have been amazing. But I tend to not trust Bush/Rice/Cheney/CNN/FOX, call me crazy, but whatever they say, the opposite must be true. I am more inclined to think this story is bunk, until otherwise backed up somehow. I still say, on a side note, that any civilian killed by sponsored-terrorism is a disgusting war crime. One, one hundred, one hundred thousand, does not matter. And the US is a big sponsor of such atrocities. Somehow "humanitarian toll" means something when...well, let's just say you can't arm Buddhist monks; so letting them die in shallow water is our policy, no humanitarian concern there. Okay Im rambling now. Pissed off and rambling.
Well this video helps answer a few questions, but also has it share of inconsistency. Such as exactly how much of the city was destroyed. But
apparently according to this, many of the dead were buried by the people themselves, so a reliable death toll is going to be tough. That one makeshift
hospital in the OP could have been just a slice of the pie, and very few of the dead actually gone through there.
Originally posted by mattifikation
You mean the Russians might be lying, and the United States wasn't backing a genocidal maniac? Wait, this could quite possibly mean that Russia was just lying, making excuses, and attempting a cold-hearted land grab. No way. I imagine the usual crew will be here in droves any minute now to provide all kinds of Wikipedia and YouTube evidence to defend the peaceful and loving Russia and its prime minister, a beloved former member of the humanitarian agency known as the KGB.
And when that fails, I'm sure we'll hear all about how Russia is now somehow also a U.S. puppet state and acted purely by U.S. instructions. Or wait, maybe it'll be our fault that Russia blew Georgia to crap because of the missile shield. Yeah, that's it... missile shield. Missile shield justifies everything from Russia attacking people, to Russia threatening to nuke earth, to Russia feeding infants to *actual bears.* In fact, any random Russian should be allowed to kill any random person from any other country on Earth at any point now, because Missile Shield Missile Shield American Puppet Missile Shield Blah.
Forgive me for my rant, but hopefully it'll be apparent now that their are bad guys in the world besides the "Unholy Scourge of America."
A rant i support and i dont usually support rants.SO far the only evidence supporters of Russia can come up with is russian propaganda machine,youtube,and wikipedia,all of which have been comprised by enemy propaganda forces.Meanwhile all our reports come from reporters and rights groups on the ground in georgia proper and arent allowed in to South Ossetia to assess the situation.Ill believe our side and not the enemy since my govt has done nothing to me to harm myself ,my job ,my family,or my country.
Both sides are giving bias stats on everything involded.
Thru history, there are ALWAYS more sides then just one, Take Alexander of Greece/Macedonia... To the Western world, he is Known as Alexander the Great, to arabs, Alexander the Destroyer...
Two diffrent veiws, same man, same actions...
The Truth is in between, as it ussaly is...
The Death Toll is probaly between 44-2000, thats the numbers the 2 sides give... Somewhere in between you'll find the truth...
Thru history, there are ALWAYS more sides then just one, Take Alexander of Greece/Macedonia... To the Western world, he is Known as Alexander the Great, to arabs, Alexander the Destroyer...
Two diffrent veiws, same man, same actions...
The Truth is in between, as it ussaly is...
The Death Toll is probaly between 44-2000, thats the numbers the 2 sides give... Somewhere in between you'll find the truth...
Originally posted by TKainZero
Both sides are giving bias stats on everything involded.
That's a fact but as always there is a objective reality to be discovered.
Thru history, there are ALWAYS more sides then just one, Take Alexander of Greece/Macedonia... To the Western world, he is Known as Alexander the Great, to arabs, Alexander the Destroyer...
And why on earth should we listen to 'the western world' when it claims that so much destruction is due to greatness? Isn't that like asking Americans about how great their nation is while Iraq burns with more a million dead? Why trust the invader with his opinions?
Two diffrent veiws, same man, same actions...
The Truth is in between, as it ussaly is...
The truth is not in between as he was a invader, conquerer and destroyer to those he invaded, conquered and ( sometimes) destroyed. That he was so good at it hardly changes the fact that his victims would know him best.
The Death Toll is probaly between 44-2000, thats the numbers the 2 sides give... Somewhere in between you'll find the truth...
The fact that the Georgians picked the day of the opening of the Olympics is more than enough information for me. If they could kill only 44 people in a attack on a major population center ,that was in many respects a surprise attack, i am not surprised they managed to lose the war so fast.
Stellar
I think the "plan" was to draw out Russian armored divisions and slaughter them with precision munitions. The Russians show up with two missile
launchers capable of using tactical nukes and the plan was aborted. Of course the missile launchers could just be fake or the warheads could be
filled with pinata candy.
Now the spin. This wasn't a mistake or a miscalculation, the Georgian president is simply an idiot.
Now the spin. This wasn't a mistake or a miscalculation, the Georgian president is simply an idiot.
I really don't know what to believe. Maybe we should try to pick this apart a little before we start passing judgement. Businessweek cites "a
hospital", Wall St. Journal and Human Rights Watch:
"Quoting a hospital where virtually all the dead appear to have been taken, since the morgue was without electricity, The Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Osborn puts the figure at 45; and Human Rights Watch says it was about 44."
OK, interesting. Now who does the other side of the story cite?
"Quoting a hospital where virtually all the dead appear to have been taken, since the morgue was without electricity, The Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Osborn puts the figure at 45; and Human Rights Watch says it was about 44."
OK, interesting. Now who does the other side of the story cite?
reply to post by Distractions4Nothing
Well the other side cites fleeing Ossetian refugees and the Russian peacekeepers that were stationed in S. Ossetia, saying that there are no hospitals left standing and the city was basically flattened. I'm sure we have satellite photo's of the area since one of the first things the West did was re-task the satellites on the area. And in that case the truth is recorded, but whether we ever get to see that is another question.
Well the other side cites fleeing Ossetian refugees and the Russian peacekeepers that were stationed in S. Ossetia, saying that there are no hospitals left standing and the city was basically flattened. I'm sure we have satellite photo's of the area since one of the first things the West did was re-task the satellites on the area. And in that case the truth is recorded, but whether we ever get to see that is another question.
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