South Ossetia Death Toll May Be 45, Not 1500 or 2000, page 1
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Topic started on 17-8-2008 @ 01:18 AM by TrueAmerican

South Ossetia Death Toll May Be 45, Not 1500 or 2000


www.businessweek.com
The figure appears to be about four dozen. Quoting a hospital where virtually all the dead appear to have been taken, since the morgue was without electricity, The Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Osborn puts the figure at 45; and Human Rights Watch says it was about 44. There may have been an additional few victims whose bodies did not reach the hospital.
(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:
www.guardian.co.uk


reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 01:18 AM by TrueAmerican
From www.guardian.co.uk...

Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".

Neistat said that doctors at Tskhinvali hospital had provided figures that 273 wounded people had been treated there during the conflict and a total of 44 dead people had been brought to the city morgue. Russian and South Ossetian officials have claimed that 1,400 people were killed in the first day of fighting, mostly in Tskhinvali.




Whoa that changes things to a degree if true. If the Russians have been exaggerating those figures to incite rage among the South Ossetians, it looks like they succeeded.

On the other hand, it could just be the media conspiracy again.



www.businessweek.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 01:46 AM by WyrdeOne
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


www.russiatoday.com...

The above link states that all the hospitals in the city have been destroyed by Georgian bombardment.

So, what gives?

One possibility is that the Russians have grossly overestimated the death toll. Another possibility is that the Russians have intentionally grossly overestimated the death toll. Another possibility is that the dead were taken to southern Russia along with most of the wounded and the refugees.

Maybe the dead have not been found? Has excavation of the rubble and the search for survivors even commenced? Did anyone bother to look for people in the rubble, or was it right into the fighting without any search and rescue? I haven't read anything to that effect in the news. I imagine some contingent of Russians must have been conducting relief efforts, maybe they have a separate process for the dead besides dumping them in the civilian hospital?

I don't know...

This conflict is nothing if not confusing.

I certainly don't want to vilify Russia without cause, but it seems quite plausible that they exaggerated the death toll. Isn't this always what happens in war?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 02:23 AM by TrueAmerican
reply to post by pluckynoonez



It isn't any less revolting, but it does change the "who do we believe" factor to a degree. That's kinda what I meant in the OP. But yeah, a war crime needs to be punished at 1 like it does at a million Iraqis.


reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 02:36 AM by WyrdeOne
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



So then how did Russia get its figure if the bodies have not been found?


Well, if that is what happened, they probably got their estimates the same way we get ours in the wake of natural disasters - they use formulas, probably plugging in factors like population density, the munitions used, the sorts of cover around, the number of elderly/infirm/children, etc..

That would be my guess - if the Russians did make a guess, that would be the basis for it.


And if that is the case, then there could be starving survivors and dead amongst the wreckage, how can Russia justify advancing toward the Georgian capital when the claim they went into Georgia to protect Russian citizens but are leaving them behind?


Yeah, I find that unlikely.

More likely is that either a.) there weren't that many dead to begin with, or b.) the dead weren't all in that hospital where the reporter went to research his story.

I'd say it's a coin toss at this point, as to which is more probable...


..invade a nation to steal it's land under the guise of duty to it's citizens there.


I dunno about that. It seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through for such a small prize - the region has no resources to speak of, and its only real value appears to be strategic in terms of force projection and resource transportation. The Russians didn't need it, but maybe they needed us to not have access to it?

If it was some strategic play, I would say it's for the purpose of resource denial, not resource exploitation. Just a guess on my part...

We would do well to remember that the Russians typically play a mean game of chess, on the micro and the macro level. If they're up to something as insidious and complicated as you suggest, it's probably a pretty well thought out plan.

I also think that there's a strong possibility that the timing of their troop movement had something to do without our plans for Iran.


They are getting what they wanted and we are showing that we have grown into a nation weaklings.


What is it that you think they wanted?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 02:41 AM by AceWombat04
According to this article most of the seriously wounded were taken to Moscow for treatment. According to this one makeshift hospitals have been hurriedly set up in the wake of the attacks in South Ossetia.

Obviously, we can't independently confirm either of those articles.

Frankly, and personally, after following this conflict as closely as I could since its genesis, I have to conclude that both sides have lied to the press numerous times about matters of varying importance. There's been a total lack of transparency since the start, sadly.

[edit on 8/17/2008 by AceWombat04]


reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 02:45 AM by pluckynoonez
reply to post by Symbiote



reply to post by cavscout



I agree with both of you, I guess I did not express myself clearly enough. If this is true than it is still a provocation, and Russia's response "disproportionate" (redefined for the ages). I agree, the lies have been amazing. But I tend to not trust Bush/Rice/Cheney/CNN/FOX, call me crazy, but whatever they say, the opposite must be true. I am more inclined to think this story is bunk, until otherwise backed up somehow. I still say, on a side note, that any civilian killed by sponsored-terrorism is a disgusting war crime. One, one hundred, one hundred thousand, does not matter. And the US is a big sponsor of such atrocities. Somehow "humanitarian toll" means something when...well, let's just say you can't arm Buddhist monks; so letting them die in shallow water is our policy, no humanitarian concern there. Okay Im rambling now. Pissed off and rambling.


reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 03:35 AM by Justice11
Originally posted by mattifikation
You mean the Russians might be lying, and the United States wasn't backing a genocidal maniac? Wait, this could quite possibly mean that Russia was just lying, making excuses, and attempting a cold-hearted land grab. No way. I imagine the usual crew will be here in droves any minute now to provide all kinds of Wikipedia and YouTube evidence to defend the peaceful and loving Russia and its prime minister, a beloved former member of the humanitarian agency known as the KGB.

And when that fails, I'm sure we'll hear all about how Russia is now somehow also a U.S. puppet state and acted purely by U.S. instructions. Or wait, maybe it'll be our fault that Russia blew Georgia to crap because of the missile shield. Yeah, that's it... missile shield. Missile shield justifies everything from Russia attacking people, to Russia threatening to nuke earth, to Russia feeding infants to *actual bears.* In fact, any random Russian should be allowed to kill any random person from any other country on Earth at any point now, because Missile Shield Missile Shield American Puppet Missile Shield Blah.

Forgive me for my rant, but hopefully it'll be apparent now that their are bad guys in the world besides the "Unholy Scourge of America."


A rant i support and i dont usually support rants.SO far the only evidence supporters of Russia can come up with is russian propaganda machine,youtube,and wikipedia,all of which have been comprised by enemy propaganda forces.Meanwhile all our reports come from reporters and rights groups on the ground in georgia proper and arent allowed in to South Ossetia to assess the situation.Ill believe our side and not the enemy since my govt has done nothing to me to harm myself ,my job ,my family,or my country.



reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 09:50 AM by mythatsabigprobe
reply to post by Distractions4Nothing



Well the other side cites fleeing Ossetian refugees and the Russian peacekeepers that were stationed in S. Ossetia, saying that there are no hospitals left standing and the city was basically flattened. I'm sure we have satellite photo's of the area since one of the first things the West did was re-task the satellites on the area. And in that case the truth is recorded, but whether we ever get to see that is another question.
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