Will evil return after the Reign of Christ?

Hello, I'd like to spend a few posts discussing the oldest of all conspiracy in religion: Evil.

I'm going to take the Bible at face value for this post and assume that things will play out like Revelations implies they will.

After Christ comes back, seals Satan and the unjust away in the lake of fire, everything is supposed to be peachy-keen.

However, I wonder, if evil got into the world once, when Lucifer fell, then could it happen again?

I am not talking about someone escaping from the lake of fire, but wondering if it is possible that some other person entirely might decide to take that fall, and the whole cycle would stare all over again.

Let's discuss.

As i understand it, and im sure someone can prove me wrong

BUT

After the second coming of Christ, the world will belong to satan for 2000 years.

There will be pain,strife, blah blah blah (read revelations)


and then the Battle for the throne will ensue

After God conquers Lucifer (again) all evil will be wiped from existance as though it never existed.

Personally - i do not believe in the "nirvana" and reincarnation that suggests that time will repeat its self.

I believe once you die - time ends, and you are rewarded or allowed to be punished, based on your actions.


Then again - i've never stood at the throne of God and asked God myself.

This is just what i believe is true in my heart.

Lucifer cannot succeed. But in order for God to prove God's greatness, God must allow Lucifer the opportunity to try.


[edit on 8/16/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

After God conquers Lucifer (again) all evil will be wiped from existance as though it never existed.


Lucifer cannot succeed. But in order for God to prove God's greatness, God must allow Lucifer the opportunity to try.


[edit on 8/16/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

I under stand how things are suposed to play out.

I am wondering whether evil will come back into the world, AFTER Lucifer is sealed away, and NOT from him.

God's plan to make a perfect world apparently was, though temporarily, thwarted. The fact that evil got in to the picture in the first place, makes me wonder if it can return at some point return if another person decided to be evil.

[edit on 16-8-2008 by asmeone2]

Awesome topic! Having been raised in the Christian religion this was one of those questions that I contemplated often throughout my growing up years and even questioned my Bible teachers on (to most of their dismay).

The answer I generally received was we will have "glorified" bodies *insert eyeroll* and that we would no longer be tempted, to which I responded that Lucifer was an angel and his "fall" from god had nothing to do with carnal pleasures, but that he wanted to be exalted equally or above god which leaves the question still unanswered...... if an angel was capable of committing evil w/out example (that we know of) and w/out having the desires that are supposedly associated only with the flesh would it not stand to reason that someone will do it again?

This is where I generally ended up sitting in a desk out in the hallway doodling on paper and still contemplating the unanswered question

I think it is not only possible, but very likely that if things play out as is written in the bible, someone somewhere down the line will screw up.

This thought just leads me into so many more contemplations about eternity and how it has played out before now and after now, about god and his supposed perfection..... which ultimately leads me to the conclusion that the story of god as portrayed in the bible is not reality, but rather mans attempt to explain the "great unknown."

Again, the only answer that can be consistent if the bible stories are true is that yes, it is possible that someone (even a "saint" or perhaps another angel) will eventually screw up and commit evil through a desire to exalt themself and not only possible, but most likely how it would play out.

[edit on 16-8-2008 by justamomma]

Gods plan never involved a perfect world

God gave human beings freedom of will


free choice

we were able to choose....

Lucifer expoloited that option

basically - the way i think of things is outlined in the movie Constnatine...



ITs a wager between God and lucifer

God knows the outcome. God is all thigns. Dont think of God as a man....think of God as a "thing" that encompasses everything.

Its hard to imagine, i know. When i think of "dark matter" i think of God.

The intangible web that encompassses all of existance in the form that we know it today.

that has irrefutable phsyical laws that we must adhere to or be forever damned to our own forms of hell for ever and ever, until evil is wiped away



iv'e given it a lot of thought...its late...i ramble....

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Gods plan never involved a perfect world

God gave human beings freedom of will


free choice

we were able to choose....

Lucifer expoloited that option

basically - the way i think of things is outlined in the movie Constnatine...

Hold up a minute partner...

First of all, Lucifer is supposed to be an angel, correct? Angel /= Human. Anybody who's seen the Prophecy movies knows that.

Second, if you want to say that God did not envision a perfect world, that means the one he desired was flawed, and intentionally so. Either God is not perfect, or something changed his plans.

AndConstantine? I enjoyed that, but I don't think it's the ultimate expression of Lucifer's plans. IT's a peice of fiction, and a stark departure from the Bible.

Though... Tilda Swinton was one memorable Gabriel.

reply to post by justamomma


The fact that the Bible takes so many pains to describe our glorified bodies and the physical nature of the Temple makes me think that we will live again physically in some way... dare I say be reincarnated?

If there is indeed physical life again, then that is asking for trouble.

Evil exists, it is the opposite of good, just like dark is the opposite of light. It's a state of being that is always possible, always lurking in the background. God allows it because if He didn't there would be no possibility of life. All creation would only be a puppet show with God pulling the strings. I think God wants more from His creation than to be a puppet, weather in this world or in some eternal paradise. Therefor evil will always have a potential to manifest.

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by justamomma

 

The fact that the Bible takes so many pains to describe our glorified bodies and the physical nature of the Temple makes me think that we will live again physically in some way... dare I say be reincarnated?

If there is indeed physical life again, then that is asking for trouble.

I can see that. If you think about reincarnation it actually makes sense to me...... up to a point, that is.

Do you learn more about cause and effect through the "teaching" of someone or more from experience. Pretty much across the board, we learn the effects of our choices through experiencing life. Every time we act and/or react, there is always a returning effect depending on how we acted/reacted.

Example: I am one of those "curiosity will kill the cat" types. It honestly is a wonder that I am still alive considering that experience has taught me more than hearing someone elses experience (although as I get older, I have learned to hear and act on the wisdom of those older than myself and those who I trust).

I don't recall the moment that I was told not to stick my finger in an electrical outlet although I know I was told at some point bc I remember the experience vividly of my curiosity getting the better of me when I was around 3ish. I remember knowing I shouldn't do it, but I just HAD to know. *insert finger* and the effect of my action was being shocked.

That is how I view reincarnation. Experiencing the effects of our actions/reactions so that the lessons of life are deeply embedded into our psyche..... and the purpose for which this will serve is not something I have an answer to and the reason why reincarnation only makes sense up to a point.

I don't think reincarnation is asking for trouble necessarily..... depends on what kind of person you are I suppose. I may be curious to a fault, but when I learn from my experiences, I take it to heart and apply it as need be.

no. you got me all wrong

dont take wha ti say literally




If God had envisioned a perfect world, why would God haven given humans free will?

Free will is easily exploited by Lucifer.


see the movie Constantine for biblical reference. The "half breeds" exist in the bible.



i understand its a movie, but some movies are based on reference to fact. This is one of those cases.


Lucifer was an angel. This is true. But an angel whom existed BEFORE the creation of man.

I dont understand it as the Father will explain it on the day of our judgement

But


As it besuits me


Lucifer existed before the notion of free will.


Lucifer made a claim for the throne when God was experimenting in the realms of non-linear life as it pertains to heavenly existence.


God is not fallable, because God creates all rules.

When i enter these debates with people, i always try to use the computer programmer argument



A computer programmer makes a program to bseuit his or her need. Certainly the program only exists as an extension of the programmers desire, the program COULD manually do the projects his or her self, but chooses instead to allow a program to carry it out automatically.

I view the premise of God and heaven no differently. God allows human beings to carry out Gods will. Any human beings not adhering are discarded into the "recycling bin" like any fallible script created in C++ or pearl or likewise computer language.

THis does not make God fallible. This makes humans fallable who fall into the temptations of Lucifer.

Lucifer exists as a counterbalance to the throne of Heaven.

100% of wh8at hte bible represents is symbology.

Is God really a man with a throne and a cape and a scepter?

No, i truely dont believe so.

God is a being that exists above our understanding, and all of the aformentioned nouns (scepter, trone, etc) exist to allow our understanding fo God.

Originally posted by smokingmonkey
Evil exists, it is the opposite of good, just like dark is the opposite of light. It's a state of being that is always possible, always lurking in the background. God allows it because if He didn't there would be no possibility of life. All creation would only be a puppet show with God pulling the strings. I think God wants more from His creation than to be a puppet, weather in this world or in some eternal paradise. Therefor evil will always have a potential to manifest.

I don't disagree w/ this view in the least.

I think of this like heat vs cold (lack of heat), light vs dark (the absense of light), etc.

How would you measure heat were there not the absence of heat, ie cold?

What is good if there is not evil? One can not be measured without the other and therefore can't actually exist in its truest form without its counterpart.

So yes, I tend to think that as long as good exists, evil will abound as well.



[edit on 16-8-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by asmeone2
Hello, I'd like to spend a few posts discussing the oldest of all conspiracy in religion: Evil.

I'm going to take the Bible at face value for this post and assume that things will play out like Revelations implies they will.

After Christ comes back, seals Satan and the unjust away in the lake of fire, everything is supposed to be peachy-keen.

However, I wonder, if evil got into the world once, when Lucifer fell, then could it happen again?

I am not talking about someone escaping from the lake of fire, but wondering if it is possible that some other person entirely might decide to take that fall, and the whole cycle would stare all over again.

Let's discuss.

Does anyone here know why God is called the Most High? I'll give you a hint...When God swore to Abraham, since there was no one higher then he, he swore by himself...Anyone?

Does anyone know what "first shall be last and last shall be first" means?

Does anyone remember that the "Elohim"=Gods Plural said, "Look the human has become as one of US, to know of Good and Evil, and now lest he take from the tree of Life and live aeon"

Does anyone know why God had to look for Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit, saying "Adam where are you"?

Remember when answering, He is not a God of confusion=Babel...Peace

Here's a few more...

Does anyone realize that we are heading to the cross and that we are the son of man?

Do Christians realize that the Jews in the crowd crying out for Jesus to be crucified were saying the same things they say, "Let his blood be on us and on our children" Christians add "let the blood of Jesus wash over you and purify you", Pilate, "i have found no fault in him"..."Crucify, crucify, crucify", they screamed even louder. Forgive them father for THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO... In todays language it's called suicide or as Maynard sings "To live you must die, you must be crucified....Good bye"...we folks are walking to the cross and don't even know it yet...soon we will

How can Jesus be savior, when God said, "My salvation is from Generation to Generation...forever" and "every man will bare his own load" "I am the Lord, I do not change nor do I grow weary"

When Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth and all that is in it shall pass away, but my words will never pass away" do you think he was excluding the bible or is the bible of the Doctrines of men, OR do you actually Hear his words as he said....those with ears to hear...listen

Does anyone know that Yahweh/Jehovah means: "Self existent" and that Yeshua/Jesus means: "Self existent is Salvation" and that this is the name he came in and it is the good message? You are existent of self being generated of your form in the image of El...

Does everyone know that "Satan" means adversary or "To stand out opposite"? With this did you folks know that if you are against God, he is Satan to you just as you are Satan to him.

Do you know that Christ/Messiah/Moshiac means: to smear into the skin/Anointed? but better yet do you know what the anointing oil is called?....Shemen Oil aka/ Semen or the "Glory" of God. Think about what Glory means and how it "Filled the temple". The anointed "Guides" the nations with a "Rod of Iron"...a raging hard "Rod of Iron"? Blood is rich in iron and also in the blood is the life. "As Moses=Drawn out..exalted the snake in the lonesome/desolate, so also must the son of man be lifted up/generating up." I was a twinkle in my daddies eye...In a moment in the twinkling of an eye shall you see the son of man coming in the "clouds" of heaven. now you know why they call it the "Money Shot" 30 pieces of silver to be exact

Do you know that Delphi means: womb? The oracle of the womb/The oracle at delphi?

Does anyone know that the Hebrew also translated Nibiru were taken Out of the Egyptians? Better yet did you know that Egypt is translated from another word called eMitzraim yet this word is translated also called Mariamne or simply Mary? How about Magdalene? Do you know this word is from Magdol and that it means "Tower" thus Mary Magdalene means: Egypt Tower. Did you know that USA means Yoseph who is still in Mariam or America. Did you know Yoseph had two sons Ephraim="Double fruitfulness" in the north Manassah="forget hardships in the land of my oppressor" in the south and that these two had a civil war amongst each other who consequently made peace by a man named Abraham ?

How about the statue of liberty, the woman who sits on the waters of the nations with a cup, Brimming with harlotries, playing the whore to the world.

Does anyone know that the ark of Noah is actually not one, but many arks around the world and that these arcs of Noach=Rest. The arcs built by Rest and his three sons Ham=Hot of habitat-dark skin, Shem=Name and Yawfith=expansion are what we call Pyramids? How about that what are being called animals in the English version means Man and woman in the Hebrew. Take 7 pair of the clean and 2pair of the unclean....7 inhabitable/clean lands and 2 each unclean/uninhabitable which we call North and south pole. frozen


Will there be evil...yes...it will just be unable to affect good, because only the good will remain....Blessings to all and Peace....leather eater under sand

The lake of fire judgment does not take place at the beginning of the reign of Christ it takes place after it. The first resurrection of the just takes place at Christs return, then after 1000 year reign of Christ Satan is let loose for a short season, and then the lake of fire judgment takes place, with Satan himself thrown in also... all is explained in chapter 20 of Revelation...

REVELATION 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

reply to post by asmeone2


Not just evil, but anything conflicting here shall be deleted. And there in your paradise nothing conflicting to you shall be there. And also there shall be no other guest after the devil.

Plus, there is no time length in paradise.

We are always in the time length of our Lord, but the betrayers drop out that time length as a negative that wasnt always.

Some of you dont realize who got body snatched from the inside to where what in place you wouldnt have knew that can blened in and give hints of irregular things just so you can only know or guess THEN and ONLY THEN about it.

And where "the" body vanishes, if you get the news, that is the Lord of our Lord. It's the Depart because without a depart there would be no getting reward or giving punishment.

Chance to change from betrail is over with once the Depart occur. Before the Depart the devil is given sight to see itself seal its Hell fate.

One thing I will say, what makes the devil believe it is able to self-delete fully, you think, since it will go to Hell? Yeah, a damn fool the devil doesnt bother to HAVE knew, but would make a guess. Only way to have knew would require the devil having been self-deleted fully, which of course the devil wouldnt do because then it still wouldnt have knew by not being there. So there is a great guessing about with a luck bad or good that rules.

One thing found in non-existence is it is fixed as a Sign to whether the guess is correct or not to what can be deemed non-existence too (what we deem existence even since non-existence exists). It's a paradox if you cant tell there are no rules for what is existence surely and what is non-existence surely. Just because you choose not to exist don't mean you dont already not exist and cant excape an already not existing in the first place in an aspect. Uh- huh!

Like passions... They are willingly proceeds that can recede, but the core aspect that brought it, whose to say that that aspect isnt in the fixed paradox of proceed and recede in some sense already? The grand point is so perfect when it is a pardox because it is an allowance of belief and opinion and guess that always lacks surity or certainty as the final truth reguardless of how you deem "anything" or "nothing".

I shame the foolish when I call em out on a common paradox point. You wonder why in the Anti-Christ bible do you see both Step-Son and also Parent which is to suggest something in common is shared (can relate with as like a single speck of blood) though everything else can be 100% different. Overall aliens to each other are %99 strangers with only one thing in common...the paradox point that can only be detected by a processing mind. Maybe it is a processing mind we cant help but pop into minding as our true source (a point), that begins the difference, and master it as we deal with it differently in our own (different) interpretation of it. The paradox point sparks the minds as in begins the minds though it isnt a mind itself. Meaning, its sparkings are/were random. I say were random because it could be that one mind it happened to spark can master it then after. It's like finding a greal pearl of magical power that doesnt have a mind to know whether that's a good or bad thing. It's like taking something doing random things and making it do non-random things since of it.

And remember... the devil was before (infront) our Lord as a murderer. That means before our Lord got the chance to master the point the devil popped in or the devil was popped in before our Lord and the devil didnt think to master the point.

^^I say this because you wonder how the devil is so told on in the exact things they would do. Obviously he who masters the point has knew everything that popped in before or after him. It's like obtaining the key to some aspect or all aspects to all. Such make the masterer the most High or the Greatest. Such also implies that the point is fixed and if you're of it then you in an aspect of the very point cant delete. Meaning, it is your bad luck for betting against something fixed as your root. Maybe your mind isnt the root, but what is it like in Hell as a root? You can only guess because you dont know if whatever the root sparks is then fixed in some aspect that unknowing would proceed the mind's base part forever more.

It could be that nothing can be deleted after sparked, but can be mastered, and other things once you master the point can be stopped from ever sparking into etc so that you wont have to deal with those who know what things.

If you dont know what can come next it is wise to halt the point from randomness, and not be that fool looking to torment the next to pop into etc not knowing if it is more than yourself. The devil was a murdered so it murdered till it met our Lord by foolishly assuming it come take on everything that sparks. Delusional thinking doesnt get you far. When you assume things it's like playing russia rulette.

reply to post by asmeone2

...some other person entirely might decide to take that fall,...

No. We would be closely supervised because there are more of us now. Anyone walking too close to the tree of knowledge would most likely be questioned by someone.
Even if we did procreate and there was a new generation that did not remember sin, the old school people will always be around to instruct the young ones.

reply to post by asmeone2
Revelation actually says Satan will be bound in the abyss for 1000 years then loosed again to gather the armies one last time. He'll be beaten yet again and then will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

I either think you didn't read Revelation or your memory leaves something to be desired:

"And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time."

(Revelation 20:1-3)

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by asmeone2

 

...some other person entirely might decide to take that fall,...

No. We would be closely supervised because there are more of us now. Anyone walking too close to the tree of knowledge would most likely be questioned by someone.
Even if we did procreate and there was a new generation that did not remember sin, the old school people will always be around to instruct the young ones.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the bible doesn't speak about the tree of knowledge being around again. How could it? Once bitten, the knowledge is imparted and can't be taken back. We have the knowledge.... the awareness of a dividing line btw good and evil. The innocence is gone and can't be regained until we learn through our experiences how to rid ourselves of that dividing line. (the only tree I have read about that will be in the midst of those who live on is the tree of life.. which i don't take as a literal picture being portrayed, but rather a figurative way to explain a very deep idea).

The trees are symbolic. Since we have already bitten the fobidden fruit and gained awarenes, that awareness will always exist so long as we exist. If you continue to live on in some fairy tale perfect earth (or heaven for those that are christian but ignorant to what they bible actually says about where they will be for eternity) you will still be aware and at any point you will be able to have the desire and even be able to try to act on the desire of placing yourself above god.

Be consistent at the very least when using the bible to base your beliefs on. Did Lucifer take a bite of the tree before he decided to exalt himself? If you answer yes, where did you read that or was that just a speculation?

Based on what we are told in the bible if being consistent, it can only stand to reason that at any point in eternity, someone can and probably will screw up with or without a glorified body and certainly without the tree of knowledge (unless you can point out where it says that it will be set back into the midst of the ppl).

Also, in Revelations (I believe chapter 22, although it could be the previous) it speaks about there being kings and such set up on the new earth, so if you are a believer in the bible and claiming to be intelligent, one would have to assume there is a reason that kings and other rulers are needed and what other reason than the possibility of occupants in eternity still being capable of evil. If I were a believer in the bible, then I would have to believe that evil will still exist based on the fact that god appoints rulers on the new earth (jerusalem... however it words it).


[edit on 17-8-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Mabus
reply to post by asmeone2

 

Not just evil, but anything conflicting here shall be deleted. And there in your paradise nothing conflicting to you shall be there. And also there shall be no other guest after the devil.
tte.

Not to be rude, but by that description paradise sounds a bit bland.

Other than that.... I dont' know what you are trying to say? Sorry, but it sounds like it's gone back and forth through an internet translator a couple times!

Originally posted by justamomma

Once bitten, the knowledge is imparted and can't be taken back. We have the knowledge.... the awareness of a dividing line btw good and evil. The innocence is gone and can't be regained until we learn through our experiences how to rid ourselves of that dividing line....

The trees are symbolic. Since we have already bitten the fobidden fruit and gained awarenes, that awareness will always exist so long as we exist....

I like to think of the word tree as a metaphorical description of the knowledge itself.

Just as the most enormous trees start out as no more than an acorn, the changes that come from us trying to decide what is right and wrong are enormous.

I think there has been harm done from us figting over what is good and evil than there is from evil itself.

Also, in Revelations (I believe chapter 22, although it could be the previous) it speaks about there being kings and such set up on the new earth, so if you are a believer in the bible and claiming to be intelligent, one would have to assume there is a reason that kings and other rulers are needed and what other reason than the possibility of occupants in eternity still being capable of evil. If I were a believer in the bible, then I would have to believe that evil will still exist based on the fact that god appoints rulers on the new earth (jerusalem... however it words it).

This is very interesting to me, because (I don't remember where in the Bible) didn't got originally set the Israelites up without a king, and only appointed them one after they complained about it?