Furthermore

In a political discussion - i feel as though ALL talking points are equally valuable.

If you think Candidate A is great. Tell us why
If you think Candidate B is great. Tell us why

If you think candidates a and b suck - tell us why

and finally

if you (like many who participate in the political forums) think that all candidates are complete and utter crap - then give us alternatives.

Whenever someone wishes to discuss an issue based on the stance their chosen candidate takes, one of a few things happens

• A few people agree. The thread dies
  
• A few people disagree. The thread dies
  
• The thread dies without notice
  
• They are accused of supporting a dysfunctional system in a hit and run political attack. Threads are erected in opposition of any discussion of political issues, and recieve all of the attention of the forum.
  

It seem as though the only way you're going to get any attention in these political forums is to:

A.) create a thread about why ALL politicians suck (even if you dont believe in that concept)

B.) create a thread that complains about lack of content that truly exists in a forum, despite having never taken part in the quality content you complain doesnt exist


Im sorry to sound so angry there, but - i am angry.

If you want to complain - fine, you have that right.
But make sure you get your grievances in line.

Don't group us all together as "the moronic masses" just because we dont take a 100% neutral stance on political issues.

Its no secret who i support, personally.

But when i create a thread that discusses viable second options for me to choose from, and gives real world reasons for why i would make such a switch - it receives zero attention - despite the accusations that no such objectivity exists. Its there - people just ignore it. If they dont like my personal approach to it- they are more than welcome to create a thread of their own, in their own manner, reflecting their own beliefs. But most choose not to. Its easier to set back and complain about it. Or in a few other cases - let others do the complaining for you.


And i'm not the only one, but i will only speak for myself, and will not drag others into it unwillingly to support my claim.



As for me - and there may be some who disagree with me - i try to fight those threads that i believe the OP refers to. I try to squash them, most of the time unsuccessfully. I choose to do this because i want to participate in the political debate forums.

As i said - some may think i'm someone who is posting garbage. personally - i dont think i do. I know i've been guilty of posting a thread that is a sort of retaliation to another thread i consider garbage.

I don't condone my actions, i admit they happen. Occasionally. Briefly.

The only real reason that garbage threads continue to exist is because people enter them in order to dispel them.

Debate them. Counteract them.

But thats the only choice they have left.

Because when you try to resurrect a thread like

Voting records speak for themselves

everyone ignores it.


....but then they go complain about a lack of such material....

its a real life conundrum, and it escapes my comprehension.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

---

The two choices we have, despite what I, you or anyone else thinks, one of "them" will win.

I could shout about it until I am blue in the face and it will change nothing.

"They", Sir, have already won!

Our political system has been so divided by the two party system that we have a stagnant ineffective congress, and our choice of two boneheads for president, one of which will replace an exiting bonehead.

I say, Sir, let them play all the dirty politics they want, let them fabricate whatever they can get away with here, let them bicker and faithfully follow a party line... let them do whatever they want.... They can bring down one candidate and elect the other and in the end they have accomplished nothing!

[edit on 12-8-2008 by The_Alarmist2012]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

---

excellent post bro...


problem is is "they" have control of the media and the sheeple eat it up

we need to vote out every incumbent and demand NESARA


we need to find a way to get more people onto this site to wake them up.



much love to you and all
(^_*)

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

---

That's all well and good for you SO, but what is "jetxnet" to do?
I am totally joking, please don't answer above question.

I agree, and I am impressed with the fact that it is left to us, the members to heed this call for sanity and moderation, as opposed to some draconian T&C "act of god" rule change.
Thank you for trusting us and offering us a clean slate just as we were nearing the abyss.

I believe Monty Python crystalized perfectly what we're trying to avoid:





[edit on 8/13/2008 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

---

SkepticOverlord, we may be related, I feel the exact same way you do.
However, does this mean that people shouldn't bring up supposed criminal activities of the canadates? Or are you saying that the out right bashing of the people pointing out the flaws and deceptions, and the fighting because of the divisions created by the gov should be stopped?
I'm just wondering, sometimes I don't get what people are saying every now and then.

Is that a 3 1/2" floppy disk on the new logo? Why if so? (I know that's off topic, but I had to ask).

-Jimmy

Here let me list you all the threads we speak of:

Obama is muslim
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
to which was debunked afterwords:
www.abovetopsecret.com...&colorshift=yes

speculation that Obama will declare sharia law:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Obama is the anti-christ
www.abovetopsecret.com...

All Obama voters are idiots:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

John McCain is the anti-christ:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here we have an attempt to link Obama to 9/11
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Obama spoke English in Germany:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Obama and the bildenberg:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Which they then tried to link Hillary with when she was on top:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Obama does not give his kids birthday presents:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Obama voters are cult members
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Obama hussien has an Arabic accent
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Nice of them to mention his middle name as well.

Obama is mentally disturbed
www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you vote for Obama, you’re sheeple:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

There will be riots at the democrat convention:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

McCain a racist and a homophobe:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Obama blinks too much:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Obama wants to be president for 10years
www.abovetopsecret.com...'
to which he never said. Another example of how real evidence is twisted.

Vote for McCain because he lies less than Obama:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'
Yet upon investigation, the so-called lies this OP claims came from an anti-obama blog that merely stated he was muslim, not a citizen and unpatriotic without evidence.

McCain is a racist, which I don’t believe even though I don’t like the man:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Anybody who supports Obama cannot name his accomplisments
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

American flag not on Obamas plane
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Obama told a little girl that ask asked why his running for president that “America is no longer what it once was” How dare he say that!
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Black population to riot if Obama does not win
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Obama and the NWO Agenda
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Obamas certificate again
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Obama’s faked birth certificate, supposed new analysis
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Its no surprise that the majority of these propaganda threads are anti-Obama, I dare anybody here to post a list of anti-mccain threads that fail to provide solid sources and are "rumors".

I am sick of being insulted because I have a different belief system to others. I am sick of being called and idiot simply because I choose to vote for the candidate I prefer. I am sick to death of being called sheep even though back in 2003 the same people as the OP's abover called me unpatriotic for not following what BUSH wanted.

I would like to start discussing the issues, but it seems most here prefer to hide behind this kind of garbage.

well well.
and just when I had written the political threads off for good. there comes a cry of hope from the leadership.

wonderful post S.O.
I have not been here long, but, it didn’t take but a short amount of my time here to see these debates take a downward spiral.

I suppose I could attribute this to the puppet masters.

I truly believe this type of media is the newest form of revolutionary battle field. where hearts and minds will be fought for. or tampered with.

it is nice to see the rational shine a little light every now and again. its good to reset the mood from time to time.

snap out of it people. facts....just the facts. "they" may not here us. but we can resist "them" in mind and spirit.

[edit on 12-8-2008 by JSR]

In terms of the US election I hold the view that it is Okay to vote for either a mainstream candidate or a third party . If you vote third party you need to be realistic about your chosen candidates chances and if you vote for a mainstream candidate should you get sick of the anti establishment dribble just ignore it . A person should no more vote for a third party candidate because they are a third party candidate any more then you should vote for someone because they are a mainstream candidate.

Well that is my 10 cents .

great post, SO.

I wrote off politics in general quite a while back. It is a closed system, no entry point. They will do what they will do whether any of us like it or not.

So, we must choose our poison: how will we be controlled? Currently we are controlled by our greed. Other nations control by fear, or by zeal.

We are seeing a shift in control by fear in the west, which is what i think is unnerving many people, but who knows. I try not to pay too much attention. If i attack the beast from another angle, perhaps we can give people a peek behind the wizards curtain.

I would like to offer a better representative for the people besides the two up there now...but it seems we don't have any. Personally, I think it would be nice to see someone like Jeff Gossman as president. but you guys don't know who he is, and he isn't inside the closed loop of politics. He is someone i have worked with in the past that is extremely outstanding.

My mother would be a good president, too, if she had a solid cabinet. She never, ever makes a wrong decision.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

---

Bill and staff,

Do you really think the sheep will take the effort to think for themselves? I wouldn't take that bet if you gave me a million to one odds, because it would still be throwing away my money. The sheep are sheep, were sheep and will continue to be sheep until the sun sets for the last time. The morons of the world will continue to regurgitate the emotionally charged rhetoric and bile they’ve swallowed as it was spoon fed to them by their lords and masters. They will continue to dance the jig of their puppet masters design for all time without any thought of the tune or even why they dance.

As I look across the seemingly endless listing of threads based on stupidity and thoughtlessness I am reduced to the same tears of despondency I once shed back in ‘79 when I realized that our leaders were chosen by the voting publics hands guided, not by rational thought concerning the issues as a whole, but by sheer stupidity and irrational, thoughtless emotion.

At that time, I was host of a radio talk show and engineer for others when the question of “who are you voting for and why?” was set on the public. The answers amazed me to the point that I actually wept. Sadly, by looking at these threads, even the titles alone, I realize that the public is no better off today than they were back then, perhaps worse considering that we are at a website filled with some of the most provocative and original thoughts known to society today.

That all being said, I’ll never be the one to ask for blissful ignorance, I am glad you have pointed it out and brought it to the surface. I hope everyone reading your thread will attempt to enlighten someone else and try to help them to think for themselves.

If not, then everybody should vote for my candidate because the other one is a big, dirty liar and shouldn’t be trusted because of their innate hatred of puppies.

J. Eagan Thorn

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

---

Ahh, this is exactly why I spend time on this site. Posts such as these from folks such as the owner of this site is nice to see from time to time. Only thing I'd like to add is that the moronic masses vote and as I have found out, get offended when you refer to them as morons. Turns out, morons have feelings and get offended easily. Probably because they are morons and are quite happy living in their moronic world.

Great thread. I have to say that this one makes TOTAL sense to me. This whole election crap every 4 years is insane. I am 33 and don't know how much more of this crap I can take. My father keeps laughing and telling me he said the same think while JFK and Nixon were going at it. But "they" are doing a good job of making me totally insane. If that is their goal there are millions more like me who would rather wipe their *** with the ballot card than punch a chad.

You can't.

Everything that you say or do is subject to your personal experience and opinion. And that is the way it has to be. Otherwise what is the purpose of discussion? What is the purpose of a vote?

Be opinionated and sing it loud.

People who attempt to convince you not to let your opinion be known may be trying to impose an indirect form of... shall I dare say it...

Censorship

[edit on 13-8-2008 by Symbiote]

I try to do my part, any threads that obviously have no fact to them do not get flagged, they dont get stared, and most importantly they don't get a reply. These threads should disapear, at least from the recent post screen, if they are ignored...

It pains me to see some of those threads make it to the home page...

[edit on 13-8-2008 by XTexan]

Great thread. I've always thought it dangerous to choose a side, be it Republican, Democrat, or anything in between. When you choose a side, you set yourself up to be brainwashed. You loose your own thoughts in favor of another's. All of the faults you may have previously been aware of are erased due to the leniency you tend to give to a politician who is on your 'side'. Our freedom is being challenged, and most are simply unaware. Our freedom to think for ourselves is quickly evaporating.

One of the main dangers IMO is to rely on the MSM for any kind of political comment or neutral editorials - it ain't gonna happen.

During my (less frequent these days) trawling through the various news sources, I've noticed two things:

The name calling, hyperbole, mudslinging etc is not confined to op-eds and seems to infest all area's of reporting on the elections and for that reason, I try to steer clear - especially of publications run by a certain Mr. Murdoch.

The MSM invariably writes rubbish about obama, whilst the more left wing writes hit pieces about mccain, so as an outsider in this election is hard to get a balanced view.

One of the main points I think SO was making was about the media (and others) pulling our strings in order to influence our way of thinking, and by default, some peoples way of voting.

Let's say the candidates are split 50-50
If the people reporting on the candidates can manage to influence or change the minds of even 2% then in their eyes, they have done their job.

In something as important as a national election, the issues should be addressed, not the personalities, although I accept that personality will always have a part to play.
This means a re-focussing on the real issues - the policies of the candidate and how they help the country and its people.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the cult of personality rather than policies started with JFK and has been on a slippery slope ever since, until we see what we have today, where the media run the election and decide who is voted for (Ron Paul anyone?)

This is just one more symptom of our fast-food, soundbite society, where everything has to be a quickfix, a 30 second infomercial that shapes our perceptions rather than actually thinking for ourselves.

I was lucky enough to be FSME for the older election 2008 forum, and whilst there was some really GREAT pieces written, there was also a plethora of the MSM type hit-pieces which members have listed here - and unfortunately, many of the threads which got the most answers and had the most "discussion" were the ones denigrating a candidate and slinging mud.

I say "discussions" but in reality it was a series of statements where people defended their own candidate whilst retaliating to what they saw as the flaming of their own choice, and it usually got out of hand.

Now don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with heated political debate - in fact it's healthy IMO, but I also think that sometimes the focus is in the wrong place.

i.e. on the person rather than the policies - something which over the generations we have been manipulated into, until it becomes the norm.

I firmly believe that as a community we are better than that, and that we have the ability to look at what really matters rather than resort to the soundbite driven tactics of the media at large.

Politics is a dirty business, but there's no reason why a community with some of the best minds should wallow in the cesspool along with the corporate cronies which are the MSM and some of their colleagues.

The end result for all you people who have been whining and complaining of the US Presidential Candidates. You will have to vote in either one of them, good or bad, black or white or even black and white. It doesn't matter but you will have a new president for the next 4 years. I personally don't care and have tried my best to stay out of those threads because a lot of them pull out the race card and then all hell breaks loose and at the end of the day its more about the debate between who has the best wording and can pull in the best external sources and it then it just goes deliberately off topic. I keep wondering if the mods do pick up on this but I'm pretty sure I'm being hard on them for the tireless effort they already put in for ATS

Seriously most of your.. lets just say.. bantering is not going to make a difference in which way the vote swings for the election. Just get a grip of your life and stop letting this issue mess with your head.

[edit on 13-8-2008 by nahsik]

If you're looking for a reason, you need look no further than inside each and everyone of us.

People like dirt.

People like complaining about dirt.

People like slinging dirt.

It's really that simple. Yes, I'm only speaking about the majority of us humans ... there are quite a few people (particularly on ATS) that ARE above replacement level intelligence and can present material in an appropriate and thoughtful manner.

But there are also a lot of people on here that would rather read about (and laugh on the inside) Brittney Spears' latest exploits or watch an episode of Ow My Balls (... thank you Mike Judge for Idiocracy). These people can't see past "Obama is a terrorist!" and "McCain is on his deathbed!" There have been many posts on this phenomenon, here is one at random.

The point is SO, these types of posts will NOT stop ... it's just the nature of the majority of society today. I think if we got to the root of the problem, and educated our youth and peers about thinking for themselves it might help some in the long term ... maybe airtight "babysitting" moderation might help the site in the short term ... but I really have no answers. Instead, when I see one of these threads with blatant and obvious biases with no objectivity whatsoever towards the actual topics they are discussing (and let's face it ... these posts creep into NEARLY every political thread on this site), I just ignore the thread and refrain from posting. In fact I haven't posted much at all in the last couple years.

Maybe that's actually the best solution ... just ignore the problem. Then it will go away. Because THAT'S worked SOOOOO many times in the past.

Then again I have no other solution. Maybe one of those intelligent people here I spoke of previously does ...

Interestingly, I stopped any serious attempts at making positive contributions to the Decision 2008 forum several days ago. It was a bit like swimming upstream. And since it makes no difference to me in my real life, I gave it up and started playing the game. Much more challenging and fun.

I did star Ian McLean's post on page one and Southern Guardian's post on page 2 because I believe they make some great points.

Some people are trying desperately to have intelligent discussion and debate here and some people are like spoiled children with nothing better to do and no matter how many facts they are presented with, they will believe the data that supports their agenda.

And it seems (feels like?) we've all been chastised... Yeah, there are some ridiculous points of view and insignificant subjects being discussed. Look at every other forum on this board, though. Doesn't that happen everywhere? Or is it just the people who discuss politics that are morons?

I don't know. What's a "good" topic? If people REALLY think Obama's a Muslim extremist, why shouldn't someone at least TRY to educate them? If someone thinks McCain's too old and mentally incapable to run a country, why shouldn't we explore that possibility? Why shouldn't we debunk the bunk? There are people out there who are believing lies. Some because it's what they choose, some because they don't know any better. Why should I discount them as morons just because they have a different view than I do?

Hey, I totally get the frustration with the talking points, racism and fear-mongering, etc. But why not meet them face-on and add some real information to the mix? Why not confront the ignorance instead of ignoring it? Even if it gets ugly and silly at times?

I know I have had a heck of a good time debunking ignorance here. And what's the harm in discussing whether or not Obama's brother actually said he's a Muslim or not? If people actually think that, what's wrong with providing credible information to the contrary? I can let people think they have the truth about this tidbit or I can confront the disinformation armed with good, solid evidence that shows he actually said Obama was a Christian.

And I know I'm probably not going to convince the accuser(s) with my information, but there might be 5-10 people reading who aren't posting that will appreciate knowing of an alternative source with different information. I've gotten U2Us from some of them. People who appreciated learning from the information I posted.

Interestingly, of the responders to this thread, I haven't noticed many of them at all posting in the Decision 2008 forum... trying to make it more of what it "should" be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it "feels" like there's a lot of disappointment, frustration, accusation and disgust from people who don't actually participate in this forum...

I was one who really wanted this forum. It turned out to be less than I expected, but I realize that it takes all kinds. We're all in this together. WE make this forum what it is. ALL of us. Not just those who stay above the fray. There are some members who live in the fray. That's just reality. And until they are prohibited from posting, they are a fact of board life. A fact of this forum. I don't feel like this thread is addressed toward me particularly, but I find I feel a bit defensive of people here who are just expressing their opinions about this election and candidates (as ridiculous as I think they are) only to be swept up into a group called the Moronic Masses...

The powers that be are very successful in getting people to be distracted by insignificant issues. No doubt. And that's what we're dealing with here. But I'm not sure of the purpose of the OP. I'm sorry. Would you have the distracted people stop talking about the stuff they are concerned about? You're right, they SHOULDN'T be distracted, but they are. Where better for them to possibly learn to deny their own ignorance than ATS?

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

---

Sir,

At the risk of being utterly lost in this overwhelming response (great and timely thread by the way) I would like to add that you have short-circuited a u2s I was preparing to send to, possibly you (I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to broach this subject with you, after all, who am I to judge?)

My intent was to inform you that I have a bit of experience in 'detecting,' shall we say, communications which are 'coordinated' or 'orchestrated' by a single influence. I have got the sinking feeling that there is such an effort taking place in the 'political' areas as we speak.

I would respectfully ask that those of you with authority and time to review membership dates and posting contributions look for patterns which may lead you to back-trace some of these entries to common sources.

I also respectfully submit that the political discussion forum may have to be more 'mechanically' restrained (in regards to Decision 08) if we are to avoid this 'lowest common denominator' mud-slinging that's running rampant there. Since we are ALL victimized by the intellectual chaos unleashed in the subject, perhaps we could control aspects of the contributions by limiting the range of the discussion by context. Or perhaps by restructuring the exchange format. I hesitate to think how much extra work that might be for your volunteers, but we have to do something, no?

I will bow to your collective wisdom, if you would rather just ride this out until November, but I can safely project that your more thoughtful, mature, and experienced contributors will likely avoid these threads - if that is of any concern.

I offer my sincere efforts to help reign in some of the more outlandish exchanges as I encounter them, but I don't expect too much success, unless we all commit ourselves to the struggle against intellectual chaos and media-driven propaganda efforts within our community. (If I could, I would be here full-time to help out)

All due respect - AND THANK YOU FOR HEARING ME OUT! No need to respond, I know you have plenty of headaches to contend with already.