China Release New Fighter. The J-10.

OMD - I just realized, that %90 of everything in my house, was made in china- ;> hmmmm, i dont think cost with be in issue in mass production of the j10-

Originally posted by drouellette
OMD - I just realized, that %90 of everything in my house, was made in china- ;> hmmmm, i dont think cost with be in issue in mass production of the j10-

Hmm...in my singaporean house,70% of things come from China,25% come from Japan,Only thing that comes from the US is my Dell computer.

Originally posted by W4rl0rD

Originally posted by drouellette
OMD - I just realized, that %90 of everything in my house, was made in china- ;> hmmmm, i dont think cost with be in issue in mass production of the j10-

Hmm...in my singaporean house,70% of things come from China,25% come from Japan,Only thing that comes from the US is my Dell computer.

I think most dell computer parts are made in Taiwan and China

It is not the J-10 we need to worry about it is the next generation jet fighters that come out of China and the ones after that and so on. China will be needing more and more oil leaving America with less and less. This will lead to problems now and into the near future with China. This is one of many situations we will be dealing with including the take over of Taiwan by mainland China. Remember during the Vietnam war an inexhaustible amount of supplies and weapons were being shipped from mainland China to North Vietnam. China will gear up quickly if war starts they have our technology that we have sold to them including Israeli and Russian technology. Their industrial and manufacturing capacity has surpassed ours and will continue to do so. The U.S. will have to stay on it's toes especially when the alliance of China and Iran strengthens. We have to keep the lead in technology at all costs or it will cost us our freedom here at home. Rik Riley

Face it you Americans on this forum,all superpowers will lose their powers at one point, the Germans lost it even with a whole continent's recources,the Russians lost it,and now its time that the Chinese took over the Americans as the world superpower.

Not really, Germany lost it cuz they tried to take over the world. Same with Britain.

But China has an oppressive gov't, so they will never be allowed to dominate. America will not "face" anything like that.

And China has a while to go military-wise before they catch the United States.

Face it you Americans on this forum,all superpowers will lose their powers at one point, the Germans lost it even with a whole continent's recources,the Russians lost it,and now its time that the Chinese took over the Americans as the world superpower.

This isn�t the past, it�s a dynamic new world. Get over the past...

From the people I know and a few articles i just read from people that have actually been to china say that the country has no spot on the world power stack. Its law and order are complete jokes, its people are ~this~ far from heartless and careless, and its business tactics and regard for any form of international law are laughable. Quite simply put, don�t count on it.

Also, as the past has shown there is easily room for more then 1 superpower.

In the end, quit using the past for a futuristic forecast. You make yourself look desperate and foolish.

Speaking of, I should've mentioned that, the past HAS shown there is always room for multiple superpowers.

Well, there are plenty of things to talk about it seems, so let me get started:

First, the J-10 vs. F-22 comparison is completely irrelevant. The J-10 is not designed to counter the F-22, it's designed to counter the Mirage 2000's and F-16's Taiwan has. And since there doesn't need to be a lot of J-10's to counter the Taiwanese air force, China won't even make many J-10's, J-11's, and Su-27/30's. All those planes are more of an intermediary step China is taking to catch up to the U.S. In the meanwhile, they'll build just enough to launch an attack on Taiwan if the need so arises.

There seems to be some major misinformation about China, how about take it from people who've lived there(like me) instead of heresay and the media. There is a VERY important people aren't pointing out, and that is the Chinese CULTURE and the American CULTURE are VERY DIFFERENT. So while the facts both sides state are true, their effects are VERY DIFFERENT to

1) The Chinese economy is probably one of the most capitalistic in the world. In face, in China, you can buy pretty much everything given the right amount of money. If you have a few million dollars to throw around, you can buy yourself a nice little Lt. Governor title. Corruption is very serious in China. However, since this problem is a problem THROUGHOUT the Chinese history, it is much hated by the Chinese people but it is NOT a problem they simply cannot accept. Many are pretty resigned to this fact.

2)The economy IS growing at a TREMENDOUS rate, and it has been for the past couple of decades. However, the growth is mostly in the coastal cities and most of the extra money goes to the ones who are already rich, thus widening the huge rich-poor gap. This is not as big of a problem as many Americans believe though, because China went through 70+ years of constant warfare followed by 20+ years of extreme economic hardship in which death by starvation among many other things were exposed to the vast majority of the population everyday. Thus, while many are angered by the unjust economy, what they have now is still a vast improvement what they've had before.

3)The government is fairly backward, but it IS improving. Small scale voting has already become prevalent in many areas in China, and criticism of the government is generally allowed unless you do it in some sensitive places such as in front of government buildings or at tourist sites. People in China trash the government everyday, the unfairness of the society and the corruption of the government are actually some of the favorite topics of daily chatters in China.

4)And about the Tiananmen square, the westerners know very little about it. The fact is undeniable--many students were killed by the PLA, but the things behind it are much more complicated. I'll disregard the political struggle behind it for a second(you didn't really think they needed 500,000 soldiers and tanks to quell a few hundred thousand college students did you?) and talk about the social aspects of it. While most Chinese people would want more freedom and human rights, they could really care less if they're given the chance to make more money. Many only care about money, "freedom" and "human rights" are only good-sounding words to them. Plus, like I've said before, the memories of those 70+ years of constant warfare are still quite fresh in most people's minds(there are still many movies made of them to refresh ppl's memories), so they realize VERY well the importance of stability. They'd rather have a corrupt but stable country than a democratic and unstable one. I think most Chinese people have seen what going democratic too fast can do to a country in the example of the USSR. And because of that, many Chinese do not view the Tiananmen square incidence as some of shame. In fact, there are many in China now who applaud the foresight of the Chinese leaders to put the iron clamp on the protesters at Tiananmen square rather than having the situation fester into another USSR. Only a few hundred(or thousand depend on which source) students died at Tiananmen square(actually, no one died in the square, the shooting was mostly on streets around the sqaure). But if China were to suddenly become democratic, the country would break up, and EVERY SINGLE TIME it's happened in Chinese history, a civil war follows in which probably tens if not hundreds of millions would die. The lives of a few hundred/thousand students are, while tragic, certainly a decent price to pay.

Oh, and btw, the Chinese tanks never ran over anyone, they went around them.

From what I have read they drove right over them; you can't drive tanks "around" a bunch of students in a crowd.

And it doesn't matter; the protest wouldn't have caused Chian to change to democracy right away; also, they did not have to kill those people like that. They could have sent in an army to arrest them or drive them away, but not kill them like that.

I agree China should not change to democracy very fast, but they should not have handled the T. Square incident the way they did.

In South Korea, a big riot started I remember, and the police came in with riot gear and fired gas (I forget what kind, but just one that subdues the crowd), and this riot had thousands in it too, but because the police responded a "NO RIOTS ALLOWED" type of attitude, no one was harmed.

news.bbc.co.uk... 999/09/99/china_50/tiananmen.htm


www.amnesty.org...

edition.cnn.com...

www2.gwu.edu...


Anyhow, whether you have lived in china or not I know people that where raised there, go there to protest frequently, have fled from there, and actual chinese people that have told me the 'truth' about the ruleless land.

And yes, what you stated about the poor-rich classes is true with both Russia and china. No middle class and the low class have no morale, respect, and care.
Drones I would say.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
From what I have read they drove right over them; you can't drive tanks "around" a bunch of students in a crowd.

And it doesn't matter; the protest wouldn't have caused Chian to change to democracy right away; also, they did not have to kill those people like that. They could have sent in an army to arrest them or drive them away, but not kill them like that.

I agree China should not change to democracy very fast, but they should not have handled the T. Square incident the way they did.

In South Korea, a big riot started I remember, and the police came in with riot gear and fired gas (I forget what kind, but just one that subdues the crowd), and this riot had thousands in it too, but because the police responded a "NO RIOTS ALLOWED" type of attitude, no one was harmed.

I really don't know what people are referring to when they talk about Tank running over people. It never happened. There was a footage of a Chinese student standing in front of a tank blocking its way, the tank tried to go around him, the student stepped in front of it again. In the end, the tank dn id not run him over. Also, I have FIRST-HAND account of students blocking Tanks way, and tanks choosing not to run them over. I was a little kid then, my mom took me to the street to see tanks. I didn't really understand it then, but I saw roughly 30 or so students sitting in the middle of the road, and about 5-6 tanks in front of them sitting quietly.

Let me repeat, there are absolutely NO report, nada, zilch, on tanks running people over. NOT A SINGLE REPORT. The tanks were for prevent a coup in the government.


Now on whether it should've been handled better, I guess I have to mention the political aspect of it. First riot police isn't an option since China did not(perhaps still doesn't) have a very large or effective riot police. It's easy to say that had the protesters been quelled much earlier, guns would've been needed. However, it was more than a "human rights" protest. The students themselves genuinely wanted freedom, however, the powers behind them that allowed them to master such forces wanted power. The students were abetted by a faction in the communist party who wished to oust the then chairman of the party(or was it Deng, kinda forgot). It was an internal power struggle within the communist party(hence the massive mobilization of the army--tanks and half a million soldiers are not required to put down a few hundred thousand college students), and neither side was able to take decisive action. The situation eventually festered to the point where AK-47s had to be used, and it was only then the semi-retired paramount leader of China, Deng Xiaoping decided to take charge and end this mess before it got out of hand. Tehe losing faction included some high level party officials, and they were all demoted, imprisoned, or otherwise punished after the incidence.

Originally posted by dingyibvs


1) The Chinese economy is probably one of the most capitalistic in the world. In face, in China, you can buy pretty much everything given the right amount of money. If you have a few million dollars to throw around, you can buy yourself a nice little Lt. Governor title. Corruption is very serious in China. However, since this problem is a problem THROUGHOUT the Chinese history, it is much hated by the Chinese people but it is NOT a problem they simply cannot accept. Many are pretty resigned to this fact.

hmmm..actually the chinese on this forum are of the opinion that corruption is pretty low in their country...Wonder why so much disparity in views.. According to you the chinese are resigned to this corruption but the ones on this forum say that corruption is quite low....
Does communism allow more corruption which is so high level that it cannot be detected even?
Or is democracy the more corrupt...Maybe calling india the 'more' corrupt of the two (China and india) was not entirely accurate...

[edit on 27-12-2004 by Daedalus3]

as posted by Daedalus3
hmmm..actually the chinese on this forum are of the opinion that corruption is pretty low in their country...Wonder why so much disparity in views.. According to you the chinese are resigned to this corruption but the ones on this forum say that corruption is quite low....

Little research turned this up"
From 2002:
Chinese Congress Focuses on Corruption and Unemployment
Corruption in the
People's Republic of China: Fighting the Scourge

...corruption is pervasive in the Chinese government.

From 2003:
Widespread Corruption Among Chinese Officials


IMHO, China would have no need for anti-corruption reforms if they did not have moderate to high corruption problems....





seekerof

[edit on 27-12-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
Not really, Germany lost it cuz they tried to take over the world. Same with Britain.

But China has an oppressive gov't, so they will never be allowed to dominate. America will not "face" anything like that.

And China has a while to go military-wise before they catch the United States.

What about the former USSR? Were they not oppresive? Yet they still dominated the USA military-wise. The USSR did not try to take over the world. Can you deny what the Americans are doing in the middle east now and threatening North Korea about its nuclear arms program? It is a dynamic world now, China is slowly changing, look at the USSR, they tried to be democratic in a short time, and look what it did to them.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by dingyibvs


1) The Chinese economy is probably one of the most capitalistic in the world. In face, in China, you can buy pretty much everything given the right amount of money. If you have a few million dollars to throw around, you can buy yourself a nice little Lt. Governor title. Corruption is very serious in China. However, since this problem is a problem THROUGHOUT the Chinese history, it is much hated by the Chinese people but it is NOT a problem they simply cannot accept. Many are pretty resigned to this fact.

hmmm..actually the chinese on this forum are of the opinion that corruption is pretty low in their country...Wonder why so much disparity in views.. According to you the chinese are resigned to this corruption but the ones on this forum say that corruption is quite low....
Does communism allow more corruption which is so high level that it cannot be detected even?
Or is democracy the more corrupt...Maybe calling india the 'more' corrupt of the two (China and india) was not entirely accurate...

[edit on 27-12-2004 by Daedalus3]

Please quote me when they said corruption level is low. It is impossible for any sane Chinese to even ponder that. I won't even go into the daily big corruption scandal in even state-run Chinese newspapers, THEY DEAL WITH IT EVERYDAY. If you want ANYTHING done in China, you pretty much have to bribe a little. And it isn't even limited to the government, it's in their everyday job(bribe the boss), in your community's management(bribe the apartment manager), everywhere. It's more of a way, albeit a morbid way, of life in China right now. However, as I said before, as long as they get their share of money, and for some as long as they don't starve, they can deal with it.

And no, the government is not as oppressive as many people believe. The government really don't care if you're not happy about it and you're sharing it with others as long as you don't make a scene. Falungong was tolerated and even supported by the communists until they started making a scene by blocking roads, circling government compounds and news agencies. Now of course, in a truly free country such as most western countries, such behavior would be allowed, but still, it is a far cry from the Stalinistic USSR that many perceive China to be.

And a HUGE factor that I cannot stress enough is that the CHINESE PEOPLE DON'T CARE. All Americans talk as if they're suffering so much and are just dying for liberty when in reality they honestly don't give a hoot about freedom and whatnot. They're mostly happy as long as 1)they get their food and money, which is a vast improvement over having no liberty AND having no food/money the past century. And 2)the nation as a whole is strong, this is just a simple matter of national pride.

Also, I have to also stress that the Chinese government IS moving forward. One huge indication of it is that China had just completed its first peaceful transfer of power(from Jiang, Zemin to Hu, Jintao) in the past CENTURY. Sure it wasn't without some minor displeasure and political struggle of the former chairman Jiang, but it was PEACEFUL, and considering it hasn't been done in the past ONE HUNDRED or so years, it's quite an improvement. The advent of internet has also made censoring MUCH MUCH harder for the government if not totally impossible at all. With the people knowing much more now, the government is changing(for the better) much faster to adapt as well.

Boy, has this thread gotten off topic.

Well, I must first quote that the culture is EXTREMELY DIFFERENT. We have traditions thats called "li shang jia you". It means, friends on top of gifts. Our whole culture is based on gifts. If you are gonna visit your friends on friday night, it is custom that you bring some kind of gift, some gift, like fruits, some thing to eat and maybe a bottle of alcohol. I prefer not to call it bribing when your whole culture revolves around sending customary gifts to each other at all occasions.

Yes, there are corruption in China but doesn't every country have corruption? It is seriously getting dealt with by the government as days before, they just fired 13000 people who basically does nothing when they're are working for the government. Its not that they don't have anything to do, its they can't do it, they got the job from gifting a relative with power and seriously begged for their jobs. Many people were fired including very high level officials. There are cases every year of Provincial level leaders involving in bribe deals and getting fired and thrown to prison, in some cases, the officials stole hundreds of millions of Yuan from the government, guess what happened them? Its the death penalty. Thats how its dealt with, when you have high penalty for doing bad stuff, you'll fear of what you are doing and think twice before you do something bad. And believe me, Chinese prisons aren't pretty like Canadian prisons, you don't get satellite TV, you don't drink sodas, you don't get to use the computer, you don't get to play cards, you don't roam around the hallways, your bed does not have a mattress and you're lucky if your food doesn't have worms in it.

Now, back to the topic. I see a lot of people bragging about the F-22's "stealth". Now exatly how stealthy is it? How sure are you that the Russians and the Chinese cannot detect it? If Yugoslavia could shoot down a F-117 with a some pretty primitive SAMs and most of their radars knocked out then I'd have to say the Chinese have a good chance at detecting the F-22. Your dreams of a "silent assassin" in the F-22 is a little premature, after all, who'd thought Serbia could even scratch something as "stealthy" as the F-117?

The F-22's stealth technology is far more advanced than that of the F-117; and they have tried to detect the F-22, but it is very hard to do so. The point of the F-22's stealth is that it is a far more difficult plane to detect and too other enemy aircraft, it would be really hard to detect it; places where an F-15 would most definitely be serious danger an F-22 could venture into.