Chris RT, yes, the F-18 was always a funny old bird in my eyes, the overall effect of the design always looked great, and the Super Hornet version even more so, but the wings themselves have never looked right to me, almost as if they were stolen from another plane and stuck on because they worked better than the ones that should have been fitted, if you know what I mean. The F-16 and F-18 were certainly benchmark designs and that was illustrated when, in the 70's, Britain and Germany tried to design new fighters (as part of the EFA project) and the losing Dornier proposal looked like/was a single fin F-18 with 'nicer' wings and the losing Hawker Siddeley design *was* a twin finned F-16 with nearly the same wing that Dornier was proposing! So US design was clearly an influence but the winning designs from BAC and MBB that later merged were a deliberate attempt to move away from this influence and actually do something better, thankfully.

I don't mean that to be disrespectful to US designs but you have to try to do your own inventing don't you.

Isn't the J-10 a sort of highly modified spin-off of the F-16, and that is why they look similar?

I am not sure if the J-10 is the plane, I know China got a hold of some F-16s though and used the design to build their own, improved version.

BTW, the reason I asked if that picture of the two J-10s in flight was fake is because it looks fake to me; I honestly can't tell if it is an artist's depiction or two J-10s in real flight.

Christ R/T, I think the reason they didn't give the F-18E/F (and it's the E/F I believe, not E/G) improved speed right now is because it would have complicated the stuff like increased range and so forth. Also, increased speed isn't really a factor. The plane is already pretty fast, and even in a dogfight, no plane goes super fast. The F-18E/F also has room for a lot of improvment though, as well; the F-18 C/D which is also used by the Marine Corps and Navy and is pretty complete (it is all it ever will be).

I would actually try to become a Super Hornet pilot in the Navy as I really love that plane, but I don't like the Navy too much.

The Marine Corps will also replace their Hornets with the F-35 as well.

Isn't the J-10 a sort of highly modified spin-off of the F-16, and that is why they look similar?

Not to band on china or anything but they have a big and increasing history of 'duplicating' others products... Not a way to make friends on the international markets either.

Christ R/T, I think the reason they didn't give the F-18E/F (and it's the E/F I believe, not E/G) improved speed right now is because it would have complicated the stuff like increased range and so forth. Also, increased speed isn't really a factor. The plane is already pretty fast, and even in a dogfight, no plane goes super fast. The F-18E/F also has room for a lot of improvment though, as well; the F-18 C/D which is also used by the Marine Corps and Navy and is pretty complete (it is all it ever will be).

That may be a reason that the speed was held back. Not increasing engine thrust to increase engine life and decrease fuel consumption.
There are other reasons its slightly slower then other fighters.
The body has greater emphasis on a lifting design then most of our other fighters and its engines used to get a conflicted airflow in the earlier models.
None the less, the F/A-18E/F/G will be getting newer engines in 2008 that have fewer parts and greatly increased reliability. This in turn gives the navy the option to up the thrust to ~27,500 lbs thus giving it greater speeds and faster acceleration.
That coupled with the fact that the F/A-18 line is already and awesome knife fighter and will be getting AESA, HMS, improved counters and the newer engines I (I) believe that it could possibly de-crown the F-15C due to its increased reliability, the possible ability for it to turn somewhat into a high energy fighter with its newer engines, its already superb knife skills, its reduced RCS, and its somewhat sorrier sensors...

Another really neat thing about the Super Hornet is that even though it is larger than the F/A-18 C/D Hornet, it has about 20%-40% fewer parts. I hear the mechanics love it for that.

For a second there, I thought you were saying that in 2008, they were giving it engines that had an EXTRA 27,500 pounds of thrust, I was like DAMN!! for a split second there (those would be some powerful engines if that was the case).

When will we have the stats on the J-10 performance?
The cockpit interiors look pretty good..You have your stndard 3 MFDs up front, with one probably there on the lower left hand side of the pilot, near the throttle stick.
Is the J-10 an air-superiority fighter? Or does it have a fixed role..?
When will the PLAAF conduct war games with other AFs!! We're waiting eagerly!!
The J-10 sure looks promising...copied or not...now all that needs to be found out is actual performance...

hehe..all the important stats are not given...wonder why??..

J-10 Multirole Fighter Aircraft

The Chengdu Jian-10 (J-10) is the single-engine multirole fighter aircraft developed by 611 Aircraft Design Institute and built by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) for the PLA Air Force (PLAAF). The single-seat fighter variant J-10 first flew in 1996 and is expected to enter operational service by 2005. The two-seat fighter-trainer variant J-10B first flew in December 2003. Additionally, a twin-engine stealthy variant of the J-10 is said to be under development.

PROGRAMME

The J-10 programme began in the early 1980s as a counter to the fourth-generation Soviet fighters such as the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker. The initial design of the J-10 was partially based on the cancelled J-9 fighter, a hybrid of the MiG-23-Flagger-style fuselage with Saab JAS-37-Viggen-style delta wings and front canards. Although the J-9 programme was cancelled due to technical difficulties and insufficient funds, the 611 Aircraft Design Institute continued its research on the front canard technology which was later applied on the J-10 fighter.

During its early years the J-10 programme also benefited from the IAI Lavi fighter technology. Collaboration between China and Israel on fighter technology began in the early 1980's and full-scale co-operation was underway by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi programme, its design was taken over by CAC, and IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

The maiden flight of the J-10 took place in 1996, but the aircraft suffered serious engine problems as well as trouble with the fly-by-wire (FBW) software, which resulted in the loss of the No.2 prototype aircraft and its pilot in 1997. The CAC engineers had to face some major re-design work and the programme was seriously delayed. Later the revised FBW software was successfully tested on a Shenyang (SAC) J-8IIACT technical demonstration aircraft, and the Russians also agreed to offer its Lyulka Saturn AL-31F turbofan engines for incorporation into the J-10.

The modified J-10 flew successfully in 1998. By 1999 a total of six prototypes had been built. Test flights were carried out from 1999 to 2003, initially at the test site of CAC and later was moved to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) based at Yanliang, Shaanxi Province.

Some J-10 fighters may have already been delivered to the PLAAF for further trial and evaluation. Unconfirmed report indicated that the aircraft will enter operational service as early as 2005 to 2007. However, as people have learned from the experience of another home-developed project JH-7 fighter-bomber, this might be proven too optimistic. It is possible that initially only 30 to 50 aircraft will be delivered to the PLAAF so that the aircraft can be fully tested. This will allow CAC engineers some extra time to solve problems emerged from the operational test evaluation (OT&E) phase before the design is finalised. The full operational deployment of the aircraft might not happen before 2010.

The CAC is also reported to be developing a two-seater variant J-10, which could be ready for the flight test before 2006. A further developed variant with twin-engines and stealthy features is also being studied.

DESIGN

The J-10 has a rectangle belly air intake, with low-mounted delta wings, a pair of front canard wings, a large vertical fin, and two underfuselage fins. The design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. It is also the first Chinese aircraft to be fitted with a large one-piece bubble canopy to give a better field of view

Despite its apparent resemblance to the IAI Lavi, the J-10 differs from the Lavi in the primary mission carried out by the aircraft. The Lavi was originally designed as a short-range air support and interdiction aircraft, with a secondary mission of air superiority, while the PLAAF is interested in replacing its large fleet of outdated J-6 and J-7 fighters, for which air superiority capability remains a top priority while the air-to-ground attack capability is of secondary importance. In addition, the Lavi project had included many elements that Israel could not develop by itself, and China cannot obtain these key technologies from the US.

The J-10 is regarded to be comparable to the F-16C/D in general performance, though it might have a better manoeuvrability compared to most latest Western fighter aircraft such as F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon. Specific information of radar and electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite is still unclear, but during the past decade China has been actively seeking latest avionics technology from countries like Russia and Israel.

COCKPIT

The J-10's cockpit is fitted with three flat-panel liquid crystal multifunction displays (MFDs), including one colour MFD, wide field-of-view head-up display (HUD), and possibly helmet-mounted sight (HMS). It is not know whether the HMS is the basic Ukrainian Arsenel HMS copied by China's Luoyang Avionics, or a new helmet display featured briefly at the 2000 Zhuhai air show.

The pilot manipulates the J-10 by the 'Iron Bird' flight-control system, a quadruple (four channels) digital fly-by-wire (FBW) based on the active control technology tested by the Shenyang J-8IIACT demonstrator aircraft. The pilot will also be aided by advanced autopilot and air data computer.

RADAR

Several options are available for the J-10 fighter. These include the Russian Phazotron Zhuk-10PD, a version of the system in later Su-27s, with 160 km search range and ability to track up to six targets. Israel has offered its Elta EL/M-2035 radar for competition. In addition, China has also developed its own JL-10A fire-control radar, which might be assisted by Russian technology.

For low-level navigation and precision strike, a forward-looking infrared and laser designation pod is likely to be carried F-16-style on an inlet stores station. A Chinese designed pod similar to the Israeli Rafael Litening was revealed at the 1998 Zhuhai air show.

POWERPLANT

The single-seat, single-engine J-10 is similar in size to the Lockheed Martin F-16C/D. The initial batch J-10s are going to be powered by 27,500 lb-thrust (120 kN) Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan, the same power plant also being used by Chinese air force Sukhoi Su-27s and Su-30s. Some report indicated that 100 AL-31F engines with features specially designed for the J-10 have already been delivered to China in early 2001.

China is also developing its own WS-10 turbofan powerplant, and it could be fitted on the later versions of the J-10. An all-aspect vectored-thrust version of the AL-31F was revealed for the first time at Zhuhai Air Show 1998, leading to speculation that this advanced engine may wind up on the J-10, potentially conferring phenomenal manoeuvrability.

WEAPONS

The fixed weapon on the J-10 is a 23 mm internal cannon. The aircraft also has 11 stores stations - six under the wing and five under the fuselage. The inner wing and centre fuselage stations are plumped to carry external fuel tanks. Fixed weapon is a 23-mm inner cannon hidden inside fuselage.

In addition to the PL-8 short-range infrared-guided air-to-air missile reportedly derived from Israeli Rafael Python-3 technology, the J-10 could also carry Russian Vympel R-73 (AA-11) short-range and R-77 (AA-12) medium-range missiles equipped by Chinese Flankers. It may also be fitted with indigenously developed PL-11 or PL-12 medium-range AAM for BVR combat.

For ground attack missions, the J-10 will carry laser-guided bombs, YJ-8K anti-ship missile, as well as various unguided bombs and rockets. Some missiles currently under development such as the YJ-9 ramjet-powered anti-radiation missile may also be carried by the J-10.





[edit on 4/1/05 by W4rl0rD]

still no info the rate of climb, SFPG...etc..and I thought the J-10 was a air superiority fighter...then why the need to develop a fighter bomber version??

Btw how are Israel-China relations as of now?...curious to know..

The J-10 should be for multi-role IMHO,just like the F-16/18/LCA types, heck,there was even a F-15E and a Su-34, so it should be obvious they will be using the design for other roles. Sino-Israeli relations? I have no idea but i think they are none really.

If it was mean to be multi-role then why the need to design a fighter bomber version separately??

How could someone doubt the Israeli ties with China in a topic about the J-10? The entire thing is based off of the old Lavi program. Israel has been providing China with top of the line technology for some time now. They've given avionics, radar, and were discussing UAV's. There's probably more, as well.

The J-10 is probably similiar to the F-16 considering it was believed that China received a F-16 from Pakistan.

China recieved a large batch of "Harpy" UAV's from isreal a few years ago and recently sent some back for upgrading.

However the US does not want isreal to return the UAV's as they make a formidable weapon against Taiwan

What version of the F16 is the J10 anyways?

Thats a damned pretty plane to get shot down from 200 miles away from a plane that it doesnt even know is there...

it's not an F-16... it MAY incorporate F-16 technology as China aquired Isreals Lavi tech after they cancelled the project.

however it is not a Lavi nor an F-16... it simply uses ideas from those designs

It's problably ~blk40-blk50 capabilities...

They ot-to just use the Flankers for air to air combat as seeing that the J-10 problably wouldnt hold up too well to many fighters...

J-10 is looking good

But if the first prototype was in 1996, shouldn't they applied some stealth tech?

Originally posted by ChrisRT
It's problably ~blk40-blk50 capabilities...

They ot-to just use the Flankers for air to air combat as seeing that the J-10 problably wouldnt hold up too well to many fighters...

it's rumoured to outperform even the typhoon in a dogfight, and avionics are one area that can be upgraded.

I believe the chinese are trying to incorporate Italian passive radar into the j-10

it's rumoured to outperform even the typhoon in a dogfight, and avionics are one area that can be upgraded.

I'd doubt that it can best a Typhoon in a knife fight; takes allot of power to do so...
That would be nice for them to release some sustained turn rate info at speeds but people tend to keep things hush hush when it's either super high-tech or average.
Either way, id rather not be in neither of those two while fangs are being drawn...

And yes, the avionics can be upgraded but I’d be more confident in a hi-tech, high-quality, and proven Typhoon then a 'run of the mill' fighter.