Where is the F-23 (PAV-1@Dayton PAV-2@Northrop?)

airpower.callihan.cc...

Here is site with more pics from Dayton

Its without the yellow caution tag on the engine BTW. One includes a cool pic of the thrust paddles

Check out the heat shield tiles on the 8th picture

Here is another stupid question for you all. When did the other airframe get painted? In testing one was grey the other was black.

The WMF a/c was grey based on pictures of it. So is the one at WP.

Not really earthbreaking news BUT the Nasa page contradicts WP's assertions they got an airframe in 1996:

NASA had planned to use one of the two aircraft to extensively study strain gage loads calibration techniques, while the other would remain in storage at Dryden. However, both aircraft remained in storage until the summer of 1996 when the aircraft
were transferred to museums. The YF-23A "Black Widow II" PAV-2 (S/N 87-801) is on display at the Western Museum of Flight
in Hawthorne, California, on long term loan from NASA. YF-23A "Black Widow II" PAV-1 (S/N 87-800) is currently at the USAF Test Center Museum at Edwards Air Force Base, California.
www.dfrc.nasa.gov...

Not a revelation but by Middle of 2004 PAV-2 had been taken from the WMF. (Just trying to narrow down the time line here:

The company recently retrieved the second of the two YF-23A "Black Widow II" prototypes (PAV-2) from the Western Museum of Flight in Hathorne, California, ostensibly for repainting for display at a forthcoming Northrop Grumman-backed air fair in August. However, the restoration is also thought to include several changes, including new cockpit displays and other possible cosmetic modifications.
www.flightglobal.com...

This is a bit interesting as well.

aerosim.calpoly.edu...

reply to post by FredT


Its not just me then? I thought one was light the other really dark. Yet they seem to be 'the same' colour to me....



Will now go have a flickr trawl. believe it or not there are some amazing images in their of some really weird and wonderful stuff.

Oh and Fred_T, that Pdf blew me away. If thats real and official and I have no doubt it is, its.... awesome! Those kids have such a cool project. Its similarity to the 'cough YF-23' is uncanny!

[edit on 24-7-2008 by Dan Tanna]

Originally posted by Dan Tanna
[Its not just me then? I thought one was light the other really dark. Yet they seem to be 'the same' colour to me.....

Yeah, it kind of just struck me when I was looking at images at WP and the old ones from the WMF


1994 Boscombe Down sighting


Im getting a bit off tangent here but this read has been itneresting to say the least. What do you think?
www.dreamlandresort.com...

Originally posted by Dan Tanna
Oh and Fred_T, that Pdf blew me away. If thats real and official and I have no doubt it is, its.... awesome!

Those kids have such a cool project. Its similarity to the 'cough YF-23' is uncanny!

Dan,

Im still digesting it and if it was a real proposal its itneresting to say the least.

Some fo the spects are really out there like a 7 postive G limit and a front RCS of 0.05M2 or -12 dB

PDF Page 27 is an interesting read

Originally posted by FredT
Here is another stupid question for you all. When did the other airframe get painted? In testing one was grey the other was black.

The WMF a/c was grey based on pictures of it. So is the one at WP.

Looking at some of the pictures and the fade of the names on the cockpit rails, etc. at WP I'm guessing that it's still black. Faded and filthy and worn, but black.

Airpower.Callihan



Thats a detail i am very suprised they allowed to be shown. Common sense yes would say they used some form of heat shielding, but in this amount of detail? very suprised indeed.

Oh and Fred, the web page has a picture of that engine out of PAV-1 and with no caution tape on it. I emailed him to ask when the pics were taken.



I had to add this because of the awesome 'paddle' view of the engine.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by Dan Tanna]

Hey check this out for the story behind the tiles.
www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/ previous/wpd/04270401.cld.doc

interesting little piece form the document.

The design of Northrop's stealth aircraft was unique in that the aircraft's engines were embedded within the ATF's body. Utilizing this design, the engine's high-temperature exhaust, around 4000 degrees, would flow in a channel over the rear deck of the aircraft, thus reducing radar and infrared observability. A key to the success of the design was the development of an engine exhaust liner (EEL), which is an insulating structure that would allow the aircraft to withstand the heat produced by the ATF's engines.

Allison submitted a proposal priced at over $13 million. Northrop evaluated the two proposals and accepted the Allison bid, finding that Rohr's proposal was "technically unacceptable." Record at 7085. The Rohr proposal called for a liner weighing 308 pounds, which was over twice the weight of the liner proposed by Allison.

On a relevant note I'm still waiting to hear from enginehistory.org about the image that Fred posted with out the caution tape on the engine bed..

Like wise canada, I asked in an email when this one was taken as well. They seem very similar and there is also no warning tape present.

PAV-1 engine out

(Link has full pic).

Engine exhaust liner "tiles" for the YF-23 were made of metal and had a hollow construction with tubes running through. The surface of each one was perforated with hundreds of tiny holes. They were designed to reduce the aircraft's IR signature.

NASA had hoped to use the two prototypes for research but it never happened. YF-23 PAV-1 (87-0800) arrived at NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility on 1 December 1993. It remained in storage until it was transferred to the Air Force Flight Test Center Museum at Edwards on 2 May 1995. After that it spent a long time parked near a taxiway awaiting final disposition. It departed to the USAF Museum in Ohio via C-5B (87-0033) on 31 March 2000.

YF-23 PAV-2 (87-0801) also arrived at NASA Dryden on 1 December 1993. It was transferred to the Western Museum of Flight in Hawthorne, California, in August 1995.

Where it now sits outside Northrops production plant. Since when has it been there is a good question we are trying to find answers to.

reply to post by Shadowhawk


So what the heck was the guy from Wright Pat Museum thinking when he told me they had the 800 PAV-1 airframe since 1996? At that point your saying it was sitting outside Edwards on a taxiway. Do we have any images of the transfer via C-5 or while it was sitting there? Also of note is that Intelgurl posted that WP said they didn't receive the airframe in 2004. see below.

BUT - I'm curious as to what happened to #87-800 (PAV1), it was at Edwards, then in spring 2004 a C-5 came to pick it up. Paperwork said it was going to WP AFB for some sprucing up but it never arrived according to sources at WP.
What happened to it?

Thanks for the input Pete. With everything else that is being said do you at all see a gap in the timeline when PAV-1 could of made its way to Northrop for sort of testing etc? Fred, Dan and Intelgurl at one point all seem to think I may have been possible but for the time being I'm not ruling out the fact that it could be simple miss-interpretation of the facts.

*Also to be clear Dan, 801 was reacquired by Northrop in Mar 2004 for re-fabrication and then brought out for display in (month?) 2006 at some point.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by Canada_EH]

It's possible that PAV-1 sat out in the sun all those years on a taxiway before making it's way to WP, I suppose. Its appearance certainly doesn't argue against that
PAV-2 is reclaimed by Northrup and refurbished (perhaps cannibalizing PAV-1?). After installation of new cockpit displays and God knows what else it's shipped to TTR?


EDIT: If they took PAV-1 briefly to take out all the GSE, etc to make PAV-2 airworthy, this could explain why both airframes were alleged to be missing at some point.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by _Del_]

reply to post by Dan Tanna



I may be going down to LA at the end of august. I may be able to take a run past the plant as see if its still there.

Originally posted by FredT
reply to post by Dan Tanna

 

I may be going down to LA at the end of august. I may be able to take a run past the plant as see if its still there.

Hence why I also asked if anyone was in or going to the area earlier in the thread.
(Man I got to relax this weekend... Way to high strung. sigh)

But indeed I must say that would be great if you could Fred. If you see the SAT image you could probably see it from at least 2 angles. Here I'll even post it because I was trying to figure out if you could see it from Aviation Blvd. Also if you could get onto Hornet Way you would have even better of a chance.




[edit on 25-7-2008 by Canada_EH]

Found a story online about the PAV-1 800 and being taken away as well as other stuff.
www.defencetalk.com...

On a related note, just for you YF-23 fans, I have contacted the museums at Edwards and Hawthorne and inquired about the YF-23's. Apparently both AC were removed back to Northrup Grumman several months ago (for "refurbishment"). According to the NASA Dryden YF-23 web page, Northrup will be making a proposal for the interim bomber based on the YF-23.

PAV-1 was towed off of NASA property on 2 May 1995 for transfer to the Air Force Flight Test Center Museum which is under the jurisdiction of the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio. It's possible that the USAF Museum took formal possession of the airplane in 1996 while it remained at Edwards. It sat out on a parking pad adjacent to a taxiway that used to be known as "Contractors Row." The paint faded quite a bit from exposure to the elements. I watched Air Force personnel load it into the C-5B on 31 March 2000 for transport to Wright-Patterson. I'm not sure what happened to it after that.

A bit of trivia: The number 8 prototype F-15A, which was used by NASA for spare parts following its retirement from research flying, is equipped with YF-23 nose gear.

I got an answer as to when the pics were taken on the web site

WMF collection

The bulk of the pics were taken in 2002, with the older pictures mid to late 1990's (he is unsure as to specific month / year. (fair enough as he has been in and out so often they all blur into one!)

He has added more pics onto the web page, and show PAV-1 now with its wings attached.

Here, have a look at this beauty!



As for the date that PAV-2 went to the Northrop plant, I am still awaiting a reply from Northrop Grumman. Dan.




[edit on 25-7-2008 by Dan Tanna]