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Where is the F-23 (PAV-1@Dayton PAV-2@Northrop?)

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posted on Jul, 25 2008 @ 06:53 PM

Originally posted by _Del_
It's possible that PAV-1 sat out in the sun all those years on a taxiway before making it's way to WP, I suppose. Its appearance certainly doesn't argue against that

PAV-2 is reclaimed by Northrup and refurbished (perhaps cannibalizing PAV-1?). After installation of new cockpit displays and God knows what else it's shipped to TTR?

EDIT: If they took PAV-1 briefly to take out all the GSE, etc to make PAV-2 airworthy, this could explain why both airframes were alleged to be missing at some point.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by _Del_]

As it would also explain the butchery job on the cockpit of PAV-1. It looks like it got attacked by a chain saw crew.

posted on Jul, 25 2008 @ 08:18 PM
Have a look at this image.. beautiful isn't it? then have a look at the next pic to see the date it was finished by, and then realise that this was nearly 3 years ago...

Next pic.............. YF23 thread

and yes this is 801.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by Dan Tanna]

posted on Jul, 26 2008 @ 12:34 AM
I remember seeing the airplane at the El Segundo facility in 2005, and it was still there in February (the most recent time I was there). It is most definitely not flightworthy - the canopy is painted over, no engines, etc. It's just nostalgia...

posted on Jul, 26 2008 @ 07:07 AM
Thank you very much for that Mr '?'. Question is, do you by any chance have any pics........

posted on Jul, 26 2008 @ 04:24 PM
I apologise in advance Canada for this slightly off tangent post, but its concerning this photo at

YF-23 @

This picture was taken in 1996. Look at the 'damage' and the cockpit area. I am going to throw in a curve ball and ask this; is this actually the full scale RCS model 'tarted up' and passed off as the 'real' PAV-1?

Conspiracy sure, but with intlegurl / Bios and posters on another forum saying there IS a YF-23 at Tonopah along with 'another test bed airframe, I feel there may be a case of smoke and mirrors involved.

posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 12:40 AM
I know that there was one YF-23 airframe outside at Dryden in October 1997 (because I was driving from South Base to lakebed runway 23R and saw it); it was still there the next time I was at that location in summer 1998. The next time I was at Dryden in summer 2004, I can't remember if it was there or not. I personally think that both YF-23 airframes are well accounted for. I personally know several members of the YF-23 flight controls / vehicle management systems team; all of them have been extremely busy with other projects since the competition ended 15 years ago, and I find it inconceivable that the airplane could have been kept flying without them.

posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 08:59 PM
Personally I think that it isn't flying but may have been used as a model platform for some other research though it is possible that all tests needed for the information for that platform could of been completed by the end of the test program.

Dan as for the cockpit issue I'm not sure. There is the inklings that yeah there may be something to it but the time lines don't match up for me. First though here are the relevant shots to compare.

yf-23 PAV-1 800 - Oct 1996

yf-23 PAV-1 800 - 2005-6
note the same "damage" is present so I doubt that its from sitting out in the sun alone as it was there 10 years in advance.

yf-23 RCS model -1990

So in order for this to have work in a bait and switch to create a better airframe or missing one they in my mind would have taken the RCS model from the desert and installed the cockpit from the PAV-1 into it but this would to of been done before the plane was shipped to Edwards and after nasa so 1995 sometime. So in oder for this idea to have more weight you need to look at the supposed RCS model in whitesands. Or the airframe that appears to be PAV-1 at WP. I have a hunch though that its still the actual airframe.

One question to the Anon poster. Can you provide us with any insight as to why you would know and have these connections to the yf-23 program or its crew? Any info on the actual program would help shed light on the cloud surrounding its apparent delegation to the desert for 15 years.

On a side note sorry that I was away for 2 days. Went on a small camping trip but were back now and hopefully we can try and dig up so more interesting stuff in the coming week.

[edit on 27-7-2008 by Canada_EH]

posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 09:08 PM
Is it possible the PAV-2 located at Northrop Grumman is a mockup courtesy of the 705 while the actual vehicle is at TTR? Or perhaps there is a bird very much like the YF-23 at TTR and that sighting is one of mistaken identity?

posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 09:29 PM

Originally posted by _Del_
Is it possible ?

Heres the thing anything is possible but its just a matter of how possible and now much information do we have to disprove any of these possible theories? At this point we are working mostly with dates and pictures which can do a lot of proving but out own photos looking at airframe close up would be ideal. Also If we start to create a timeline for both airframe as we think we know we can try and nail down where these grey areas where that airframes could of been switched. If our Anon poster or say Shadowhawk can direct us to anyone who would have knowledge leading up to the ATf result and the fall out the airframes and models then after.

posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 09:48 PM
reply to post by _Del_

I've been around plenty of mockups and plenty of real airplanes, and I've been very up close and personal with the airplane at Northrop Grumman's El Segundo facility, and I am quite convinced it is one of the two YF-23 prototypes. And no disrepect to anybody, but an Intelgurl sighting is not convincing enough to me - she's been incorrect before (and no I can't and won't elaborate further on that statement).

posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 10:24 PM

Originally posted by FredT
The pic in this thread would also be interesting to see if we can figure out the date it was taken

Well I got intouch with the webmaster who appears to have taken the picture. Here is what he had to say.

The images were taken during early March 2004 during a tour of the National Museum of the United States Air Force Restoration Facility.

posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 10:48 PM
Well I went to WMOF in June of 07 when they opened at their new location and they were just getting established and I was told that the f-23 could be seen just up the street out side of the Northrop facility. I wasn't too familiar with the area so we drove around for a while and never found it.
Seems to be in 'restoration' for quite a while now but the museum still tags that it will be returning in the "near future".

[edit on 7/27/2008 by racerzeke]

posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 10:55 PM

Originally posted by Canada_EH Also If we start to create a timeline for both airframe as we think we know we can try and nail down where these grey areas where that airframes could of been switched.

This was going to be my suggestion. Make a separate time-line for each of the airframes. We can list what we know and what we know and see where there are gaps.

posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 12:15 AM
I apologize for posting anonymously, especially because it does reflect on my credibility, but it would not be advantageous for me to register on this somewhat "fringe" board _javascript:icon('
') (but a good deal of the Advanced Aircraft forum is worthwhile and not fringe; that's why I sometimes contribute, albeit anonymously). I know the core of the YF-23 flight controls and vehicle management systems engineers (and the head flight test engineers as well) quite well in a professional capacity; I did not work the program, my acquaintance with these individuals postdates the ATF competition. As I said earlier, they have been incredibly busy over the years and certainly have not been able to help keep a YF-23 flying. My sightings of one YF-23 airframe at Dryden in 1997 and 1998 were a result of my assignments at that time, but I can't discuss what I was doing except that it was related to a flight test program ongoing at EAFB at the time. Getting a chance to look up close at the YF-23 airframe at the Northrop Grumman facility in El Segundo several times over the last few years is job related too, but again I can't discuss any of it except to say that it was not YF-23 related at all. Based on this evidence, plus an intimate knowledge of what it takes to keep a complex prototype flying, I find no credibility in the notion that there is a YF-23 flying at TTR or elsewhere. Heck, just keeping abreast of DMS issues would be hard enough to work through.

I think this is going to have to be my last word on this issue, as I've said about all I'm at liberty to say...

posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 07:48 AM
reply to post by Anonymous ATS

Personally I haven't at all said that I believe one to be flying Anon and I think most of those posting here would agree with both me and you on that issue. Now the possibility of the airframe being used in more testing or so on in the resent quest for the interim bomber that got "canned" Northrop may have wanted 1 or 2 of the larger frames from testing available to them hence the confusion on timelines and where the planes got transported to in the later 90s and early 00s.

I'll try typing up the timeline as we know it today and If you see anything Anon please don't hesitate to further contribute so we don't go off on a tangent etc.

Also the fact that Northrop is still busy while their white world projects seem quite normal and few it really does make it seem that the "canned" interim bomber proposal may have grown into an offshoot program now hence the speech given by the Northrop CEO and the unspecified designation of 2 billion to its black projects.

Anyways its fair to say that as of the cancellation of the yf-23 Northrop has seemed to get progressively blacker.

posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 01:27 PM
Well its that time. Time for the timeline of the yf-23 and where'd it go.
Anyways I'll get right into it. As always let me know if there are mistakes or missing information. Eventually I may even go back and link to the time slots where the info came from and provide a link to the source.

YF-23A "Black Widow II" PAV-1 (S/N 87-800)
-Late 1990- ATF flight test program ends (Global Security)
-April 1991- ATF contract awarded to the yf-22 (Global Security)
-Dec 1993- PAV1 arrives at NASAs Dryden Flight Center
-May 1996- PAV1 released from NASA to WPAFB Museum (NASA)
-??? 1996- PAV1 moved to "Contractor Row" Taxiway on EAFB.(shadowhawk)
-??? 1997- PAV1 Sighted at EAFB (Anonymous posting)
-Mar 2000- PAV1 transported to WPAFB Museum by C-5(shadowhawk)
-??? 2004-PAV1 photographed in WPAFB Museum restoration hanger (Gary Brossett)
-June 2008-PAV1 wings reattached and restoration almost complete.(WPAFB-Museum)

YF-23A "Black Widow II" PAV-2 (S/N 87-801)
-Late 1990- ATF flight test program ends
-April 1991- ATF contract awarded to the yf-22
-Dec 1993- PAV2 arrives at NASAs Dryden Flight Center
-Oct 1995- PAV2 released by NASA to WMF
-??? 2002- PAV2 photographed @ WMF by Phil Collins
-June 2004- PAV2 wings removed by Northrop for restoration
-July 2004- PAV2 whole airframe removed to Northrop for restoration
-??? 2006- PAV2 restoration completed by Northrop
-Feb 2008- PAV2 possible sighting of airframe outside of Northrop building

[edit on 29-7-2008 by Canada_EH]

[edit on 29-7-2008 by Canada_EH]

posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 02:39 PM
I can guarantee that PAV-1 left Edwards on 31 March 2000. I watched it get loaded into a C-5B, serial number 87-0033 and recorded the details in my journal. I asked the museum curator at Edwards where it was headed and he said it was going to the USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio. Maybe someone else witnessed its arrival at WPAFB.

posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 02:57 PM
reply to post by Shadowhawk

Awesome thanks Pete.
I'll trust your word considering you even put it in your journal. Can't get much more official then that other then a press release I guess. Also did you see anyone around that day taking pictures? I can't see why there wouldn't be with something like that going on and would there be any chance that we can find an image?

Consider the post above your of the timeline edited and correct. Also it makes sense since I recall that someone claimed that an picture was taken of 800 in 2002 @ WPAFB though I can't confirm it at this point.

The question remains on did it land in WPAFB the same day. We shall hunt.

posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 03:49 PM
Well to further expand on our collection of images I have tracked down some more pictures of 800 at what appears to be Edwards. I've confirmed one of them and am posting it now.

This image was shot by Greg Loskorn. Here is what he had to say.

It was October 1996 at the Edwards AFB air show. It was the first
time I had ever seen one at an airshow.

Hope that helps!

Also people may want to check out this link and this image which I'm still hunting.

[edit on 29-7-2008 by Canada_EH]

posted on Jul, 30 2008 @ 12:37 AM
Canada_EH-In June of 2007 I was told I could see PAV-2 outside the Northrop Facility by the person who was working at the Museum that day. I didnt know the exact location and being unfamiliar with the area I didnt want to get lost so I went home. Dont know if that'd be helpful to your timeline but it cuts down 8 or so months on the PAV-2 being outside even though I never actually saw it.

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