Who made eating pork and swine flesh lawful for Christians?

reply to post by queenofangels_17


who made anything unlawful? can there be law without people?

"PEOPLE MADE IT OK"-SHORT AND SIMPLE ANSWER

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Let me answer the original question. A history lesson is in order.

The first Christians were Jewish. When these Jewish Christians started to preach to the Gentiles at Antioch, a heated debate arose. Should the Gentiles be required to observe the strict Jewish dietary laws, circumcision, and the Jewish holidays? The traditionalists among the Jewish Christians believed that the Gentiles should observe Jewish Law.

It was Saul of Tarsus, otherwise known as Saint Paul, that settled the debate. It was St. Paul that stripped the Gospel of its Jewish character and adopted it to appeal to all of humanity.

For St. Paul. to require Gentiles to practice the Jewish Law would be tantamount to saying that faith in the risen Jesus Christ was not enough for salvation; observance of Jewish Law was also necessary.

Saint Paul went so far as to say: "what makes a man righteous is not obediance to the (Jewish) Law, but faith in Jesus Christ...if the Law can justify us, there is no point in the death of Christ...When Christ freed us, he meant us to be free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery."

A council was held at Jerusalem, around the year 49 AD to settle the debate once and for all. After much heated debate, James pronounced that circumcision would not be required of the Gentiles, but certain Jewish observances would be required, such as abstinence from eating foods sacrificed to idols, illicit intercourse was forbidden, etc. Only certain Jewish dietary regulations were imposed, such as forbidding to eat meat with blood still in it, and eating the meat of strangled animals.

So, to answer the original poster's question, it was primarily Saint Paul, and the first council held at Jerusalem in 49 AD, that made the changes from restrictive Jewish Law because of the promises of salvation made possible through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Also, there is a passage in the New Testament, that refers to the fact that what you eat does not make you unclean, but it is evil thoughts that makes one unclean. Read the Book of Mark, Chapter 7, verse 16-23:

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 17 And when he was come into the house from the multitude, his disciples asked him the parable. 18 And he saith to them: So are you also without knowledge? understand you not that every thing from without, entering into a man cannot defile him: 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but goeth into the belly, and goeth out into the privy, purging all meats? 20 But he said that the things which come out from a man, they defile a man.

21 For from within out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile a man.

So, you heard it direct from Jesus Christ himself. What you eat does not defile you, but what comes from within your heart - evil thoughts - defiles a man.

That is, if you eat pork - which is probably not the best thing for your health anyways - you have not defiled yourself from a spiritual point of view. What defiles is evil thoughts, not what you eat.

This was an amazing history lesson! Thanks to whoever posted it!!!

Who made eating pork and swine flesh lawful for Christians?

Paul made the changes, trying to making the religion palatable to the non-Jews he preached to around the Mediterranean. Can't have a religion without followers and I can't help but wonder how would-be converts balked when circumcision was mentioned?

First Convert: "No bacon, no lobster and you want me to cut off what??'
Paul: "Let me get back to ya on that".

I see these types of posts crop up from time to time on a regularly scheduled menu of time..and confusion. I should not be, but am continually amazed at how uninformed Christians can be about everything and anything...even Christianity. I should long ago have gotten over this amazement at my bretheren but all things in due course.

The Olde Testament is a promise between God and a people chosen by Him and for Him. A Will and Testament. As a matter of historical record...for a testament to go into effect ...it requires the death of the Testator. THe death of the Testator is the event which makes the testament or will of effect...puts it automatically in effect.

What this means is that part of what we call the New Testament is actually the Olde Testament. Only with the death of the Testator did the New Testament go into effect.

Another thing about a promise...a covenant...a will and testament. The Testator can change thier will as often as they like or need. The will which goes into effect ...is the one when the testator dies...gives up the Ghost. Their last will and testament.

This means that until the Cross...the apostles were still under the Olde Testament Law. But after the Cross...the Olde Testament Levitical prohibitions did not apply..the bondage of the olde testament. Including all that stuff about dont eat this ..or eat this and not that.

Also many of the prohibitions ..in addition to improving the health and stanitation of the Hebrews...many of these prohibitions were to show that these people did not do and were not to do as the nations surrounding them did. For the land of the heathen nations was defiled...by thier practices.
The Hebrews were told how to prepare thier meals...how to dress..how to sow and reap/glean their fields. In much of this it demonstrated that they were not of the people in the nations surrounding them.

These concepts do not seem to be something often taught to Believers today by their preachers/pastors/priests.

You want to eat pork....no problem..you dont want to eat pork..no problem there either. Fish ..same thing. The dietary laws do not apply to us as Believers today.

I am not under the bondage of the Olde Testament. Not going to happen. Including the dietary laws.

I suspect that this is one reason there is much confusion generated by many peoples and religions concerning this. Many want to bring us back under Olde Testament Bondage....for which no testator died.
"For the children of the Bondwoman shall not be heir with the children of the free woman." They want to bring us back under the bondage of the bond woman and her son. Under the Jerusalem which now is..not the Jerusalem which is above and the mother of all Believers.

These are counterfits ...and I Know the name of the counterfitter. By name!!

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by runetang
But yes, pork = blasphemy

hahahahaha


I can't contain myself, hahahaha

Seriously I am cracking up over here. Pork! All this fuss over......pork? This is why religion is full of brain dead sheep that can't think for themselves.....To think all this war and suffering over people that say things like pork = blasphemy

...............pork

It may be even simpler than that remember the life and times when the idea of not eating piggies came out way back before refrigerators and freezers now try to preserve pork in the desert!




mmmmmm..... PORK


[edit on 24-7-2008 by SLAYER69]

A couple of Commandments.

+149) To determine that an animal is kosher before eating it

Mandated punishment for violation: None
To eat only animals that are defined by Torah Law as being kosher — those that are ruminants with cloven hooves. Jews are strictly bound by this commandment, while gentiles are not; but gentiles do earn extra reward from G-d for choosing to follow this rule exactly as Jews must. "Except where poverty limits a person’s options"...

Examples: cows, sheep, goats, deer, bison.

-187) Not to eat milk and meat together
Application to gentiles:
Mandated punishment for violation: None
Though not bound by this commandment, gentiles would be wise to avoid the "spiritually damaging" effects of eating milk and meat products together.

Examples: No cheeseburgers, pepperoni pizzas, or Philly cheese steak sandwiches

618 more commandments for the non-Jew can found here www.hasidicuniversity.org...

According to Universal Theocratic Law for Non-Jews, insulting or cursing a Jew is effectively declaring war on G-d.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I may be even simpler than that remember the life and times when the idea of not eating piggies came out way back before refrigerators and freezers now try to preserve pork in the desert!

Good Point, lots of problems with warm pork.

But my problem is the basic 3 religions of the middle east follow alot of the same things.

Each have contradictions and reasons to butcher others the 3 religions have been the cause of more deaths then any other human thought patterns.


So who would benefit from the death and confusion a benevolent god or a sadistic god.

Which of the 2 is always represented a cloven foot being ?
Which of the animals in the world are considered unlawful to eat?

Cloven footed.......

follow the Golden rule "Do unto others as you wish others to do unto you'

have s great day and as Dave Allen used to say May your gods go with you

reply to post by Clearskies

Jesus is full of mercy!

Evidently he had none for the owner of the swine, who went to bed that night a poorer man, through no fault of his own, for what the so-called 'saviour' did.

Now what I want to know if anyone can explain to me is how and why someone decided what is classifed as 'unclean'?
Sounds like someone thought the little piggies were just ugly and didn't like them for some stupid reason.

reply to post by Trance Optic

I couldn't agree more. If pork is all that unhealthy, how come the Chinese are so tough and long-lived... not to mention numerous?

If noone minds me asking, why didn't God-- obviously an authoritative expert in biology and chemistry-- just tell people to cook their food thoroughly? Could've saved some trees when printing the Bible then too.

I am not sure why this is a issue. I don't think God gives a damn what we eat IMHO. I am sure he is much more worried about the fact that there are so many people STARVING. I would eat a nun if I got hungry enough and was starving to death. To not eat something because some weird bastard thought he could read Gods mind 2000 plus years ago is nutty. I believe in God, but I don't believe in any books written by people that got the info word of mouth years and decades after the fact.

Religeon is just a successful cult created by man. Have you ever read the bible, new and old testiment, I have and it's the most rediculous bullcrap I have ever seen.

All I can say is after time people realised that pork is good and if your starving and a pig is in front of you, your gonna eat it to survive, and nothing bad will happen. Rmember Sunday was a day of rest and if you worked on that day god would shoot lightning up your a#@, well now it's hangover day and a good time to hunt. I would rather worship what the ancient egytians and greeks worshipped.

Oh yeah, and the starvivng kids in Africa eating one meal of wild ocra a day would kill for some swine. I also hate how crazy christians think that if a child doesnt whatever himself to god, that he goes to hell, I guess a lot of mentally challenged, infants and religeon deprived people will be in hell.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by starvingartist]

reply to post by runetang

They were wild pigs .. excuse me, a pack of wild pigs. It is in the text, and there is no shephard or owner character in this story.

11: Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12: And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13: And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand); and were choked in the sea.
14: And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country.

- Mark, Chapter V

Did the Ammonites go about feeding wild pigs as a hobby, then?

[edit on 24-7-2008 by Astyanax]

I didn't read all of the pages and all of the answers that where written here, but what I've seen mostly is alot of jiberish about the law of god, the law of men and other things that means nothing to me. The ONE reason why porkmeat was banned by jewish and muslim law was because they had no means of storing it long before it went bad. In the northlands (Norway, Sweden, Island and some other) we had a tradition of salting the porkmeat long and hard so that it wouldn't rot, and because of the climate there the meat lasted longer. In the warmer countrys in the south it was not possible for the meat to last as long even when salted.

Another thing that I've seen in this thread is that "unclean" is often referd to as "dirty", that pigs and swine are unclean because they are rolling in mud and thier own excrement. Well, pigs and swine are among the cleanest animals in the world. The reason that they roll around in mud is because otherwise they will get burned by the sun. Look at it as a sunlotion for pigs

reply to post by Proclarush Taonas


Proclarush,

The rationale that you pointed out about the lack of preservation may seem plausible, but if that was true, God would have repealed this law in the Final Testament which is the Holy Qur'an. The fact that it was listed down as still unclean 2000 years or so after Moses and the prophets and 600 years after Jesus means that it's still unclean.

006.145 Say: I find not in that which is revealed unto me aught prohibited to an eater that he eat thereof, except it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or swineflesh - for that verily is foul - or the abomination which was immolated to the name of other than Allah. But whoso is compelled (thereto), neither craving nor transgressing, (for him) lo! thy Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

God has mentioned that the mockers of God's revelations and Sabbath breakers He turned to despicable apes and swines. If some swines used to be men before, who were disbelievers cursed by God to become swines, it would indeed be foul to eat it.

Jesus when casting out demons cast them to herds of swines, if the Children of Israel eat swine at this time, Jesus will not cast the evil spirits there surely. The people who eat them at the time of Jesus are the uncircumcised people who are not part of God's covenant.

Peace!

reply to post by Skelkie3

If you fell down amongst them, you better be up quick and muster a commanding voice.

I' ve seen them devour live chickens and goats.

A star for your post, Skelkie3. In a thread full of religious cant, speculation and misinformation, you're the first to hit on the real reason for these ancient prohibitions against eating pork.

It is not because pork is particularly bad for anyone, or harbours unusually nasty parasites.

And no, it's not because pigs 'r' us, though in genetic terms we are rather closely related.

It is because pigs and humans compete for the same food sources.

Yes, pigs eat goats and chickens, as you correctly point out. They also eat the same tubers and other vegetables we do.

And pigs eat a lot.

Desert nomads - Hebrews or Arabs, makes no difference - live off the land, or off their herds (which also live off the land).

Goats and sheep eat vegetable matter that humans cannot eat, and which grows wild. And chickens, too, forage (though I don't know whether ancient Middle Eastern tribesmen kept chickens; I think they were first domesticated in India).

Pigs eat what we eat. So a tribe of nomads that kept pigs would find that the land through which they travel would support fewer people, because a large proportion of the food people could eat would have to be diverted to feed the pigs instead.

So: the more pigs, the less food to go round for the people.

Yet in spite of this, some individuals or families (especially the more powerful ones) would still keep pigs, because pork is so delicious. A herd of delicious, costly-to-feed pigs would have been a status symbol, maintained, ultimately, at the expense of the entire tribe.

To help ensure enough food for everyone (and to preserve tribal unity), the keeping of pigs had to be made taboo, haram or whatever you want to call it. Also, hungry pigs are dangerous to humans; better not let Junior toddle past the pigpen...

In the Pacific, the conflict between pigs and people for food has often caused trouble. Here, the people aren't nomads, but agriculturists and fisherfolk. Still, the problem is the same, because small Pacific islands have only a limited food supply. The islanders brought the pigs with them when they colonized the islands, and then found themselves in competition with their own herds for food.

According to Jared Diamond, the islanders of Tikopia, in the Pacific, got wise to this problem hundreds of years ago - around the year 1600, apparently. So they had a feast lasting several days and ate every last pig on the island. The event is celebrated in Tikopian tradition down to this day.

Tikopia, incidentally, is an island where the entire ecosystem is brilliantly managed by the locals to support themselves, and the chiefs limit the population to roughly 1,200*. Being smart ecologists, the Tikopians saw the problem with pigs and dealt with it in the tastiest possible way.

So that, dear friends, is the real reason why the Hebrews and Arabs are so down on the flesh of the hog: not because of trichomonas, or cholesterol, or the fact that pigs eat poo; but because they eat what we eat; they take food out of our mouths.
*For more information on Tikopia, see Diamond, J., Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, 2005, New York: Viking Books, or this Wikipedia entry.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by Astyanax]