Who made eating pork and swine flesh lawful for Christians?

I'm not one to trample on another's believes. I WAS taught in a secular school that these believes came down through the ages to prohibit the people from hurting themselves due to the improper cooking of certain types of shellfish and pork. They did this because they didn't understand that these types of meat NEEDED to be cooked well. Back then they had no concept of the consequences of under cooking these types of meat, so it was banned. This was done to help the people and it was integrated into religious belief so it eventually became religious law. I believe Christians did this as a thumb in the eye to the Jewish people and also as a way to allow other faiths into "The Way". Christianity was trying to grow at the time and needed to separate itself from the Jewish faith to attract more people and expand. The need to eat "unclean" meat and the need NOT to be circumsized allowed many into "The Way" that would otherwise pass on it. Just my opinion but it's what I was told.

reply to post by jmdewey60



right on jmd, i know exactly what you mean about the pizzas, lol. so tempting, especially delivery pizzas that are made quite nice.

i wish they had beef pepperonis.. i know they exist, but they are uncommon around here, because .. oh heck I dont know.

you know you can still eat pizza; if it is frozen, at the grocery store pizza, just purchase a 4-cheese pizza, they also have "cheeseburger" pizzas; those will work too. i feel your pain .. heheh..

reply to post by runetang


Hey you can eat whatever meat you want ! Not my job to tell you what to ingest ! I have read the bible twice, and do not base my judgement of the bible on internet based discussions.The book of kings is just as absurd.

Well if a nazi scientist analyzed the old testament I would agree with you. Amid the basic health stuff, there are all the keys to a healthy community enforced by violent eugenics. If god disagreed so strongly with this, at a time when prophets romed the lands, he might have said something... The old testament is full of burning bushes and such... Never are the facist bits condemned though.

He sent Jesus. (who by the way is NOT gods only son....). Yep. Why do we still refer to the old testament ? Which establishes god's existence. As you said, books are written by men. Who is to say that god and the christ are not just stories told to the masses in order to control them ?

Originally posted by Grendel39
I'm not one to trample on another's believes. I WAS taught in a secular school that these believes came down through the ages to prohibit the people from hurting themselves due to the improper cooking of certain types of shellfish and pork. They did this because they didn't understand that these types of meat NEEDED to be cooked well. Back then they had no concept of the consequences of under cooking these types of meat, so it was banned. This was done to help the people and it was integrated into religious belief so it eventually became religious law. I believe Christians did this as a thumb in the eye to the Jewish people and also as a way to allow other faiths into "The Way". Christianity was trying to grow at the time and needed to separate itself from the Jewish faith to attract more people and expand. The need to eat "unclean" meat and the need NOT to be circumsized allowed many into "The Way" that would otherwise pass on it. Just my opinion but it's what I was told.

I was told a very similar story but you have actually expanded on it more from what I heard.

Thank you very much for your post.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jmdewey,

If you are starving and have no choice but to eat pork, God has given exemption for instances like these ;

002.173 He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swineflesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than Allah. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I think this falls in the category of driven by necessity, God is merciful and forgiving.

005.003 Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

and it also falls in the category of forced by hunger not by will to sin...

A Muslim if compelled to eat pork are also given leave by God... though if there be another choice they still shun pork.

006.145 Say: I find not in that which is revealed unto me aught prohibited to an eater that he eat thereof, except it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or swineflesh - for that verily is foul - or the abomination which was immolated to the name of other than Allah. But whoso is compelled (thereto), neither craving nor transgressing, (for him) lo! thy Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

Peace!

[edit on 23-7-2008 by queenofangels_17]

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by pause4thought

 

pause4thought,

What you actually read added to what was in the New Testament is the complete teaching of Jesus as written by his scribe and disciple Barnabas.

Hold on a second, did you really just say "ADDED TO WHAT WAS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT"?

Who gave you the authority to add onto the New Testament to try and persuade others? The Bible in it's original form is widely accepted by Christians as complete.

I also gave you scriptures in a previous post (page 4) right out of the New Testament which counter every argument you made by using the Bible scriptures - A post you seem to have readily ignored.

Quote from your book of beliefs all you want to - that's fine. I respect that. But don't you DARE twist the words of the sacred book of my religion to fit your personal beliefs when they are in conflict.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by sos37]

reply to post by Grendel39


Grendel,

Swine flesh has been categorized as unclean meat and the Holy Prophets were instructed not to eat unclean meats and they pass this on to the people. Even though the people have lost some teachings of the Prophets the uncleanness of swine flesh were retained in their mind and the people probably rationalized the wisdom later on after trying to eat it and becoming sick.

So you think the Christians who made the eating of pork lawful and annulling the covenant of circumcision did so to attract more followers? Relaxing the Laws of Moses which the Holy Prophets observed to gain more followers will not be sanctioned by Jesus were he still around, but these lies were put in the mouth of Jesus thus so many people were deceived and still being deceived.

003.077 Lo! those who purchase a small gain at the cost of Allah's covenant and their oaths, they have no portion in the Hereafter. Allah will neither speak to them nor look upon them on the Day of resurrection, nor will He make them grow. Theirs will be a painful doom.

005.014 And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork.

Peace!

If man is fallible how can we believe anything in the Bible - a document written by men? Did God write the Bible through man? That's a long chain of fallibility. If man isn't fallible, than the Bible is wrong and must be considered fallible. Of course, you have to take this with a grain of salt because I'm fallible...or, if not, God. You decide. Just remember, you could be wrong.

Originally posted by babloyi
...ad infinitum....

It's not (exclusively) matter of (what we know of science) helping human's stay alive. It's God's law. Isn't it?

Is it? I think your entire previous post proves my point in the weirdness of dallying on laws of minutia. I'm not sure God's spending a lot of time on minutia...but there sure are a lot of people killing each other over it.

whatever. I'm on a diet right now so I can't have bacon...which makes me holier-than-thou so just get outta my face.

reply to post by queenofangels_17


I don't wish to argue with anyone regarding their believes, I was merely passing on what I was taught. Jesus was a JEW, I would expect he was an observant Jew. Please let us not argue about it.

Let me answer the original question. A history lesson is in order.

The first Christians were Jewish. When these Jewish Christians started to preach to the Gentiles at Antioch, a heated debate arose. Should the Gentiles be required to observe the strict Jewish dietary laws, circumcision, and the Jewish holidays? The traditionalists among the Jewish Christians believed that the Gentiles should observe Jewish Law.

It was Saul of Tarsus, otherwise known as Saint Paul, that settled the debate. It was St. Paul that stripped the Gospel of its Jewish character and adopted it to appeal to all of humanity.

For St. Paul. to require Gentiles to practice the Jewish Law would be tantamount to saying that faith in the risen Jesus Christ was not enough for salvation; observance of Jewish Law was also necessary.

Saint Paul went so far as to say: "what makes a man righteous is not obediance to the (Jewish) Law, but faith in Jesus Christ...if the Law can justify us, there is no point in the death of Christ...When Christ freed us, he meant us to be free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery."

A council was held at Jerusalem, around the year 49 AD to settle the debate once and for all. After much heated debate, James pronounced that circumcision would not be required of the Gentiles, but certain Jewish observances would be required, such as abstinence from eating foods sacrificed to idols, illicit intercourse was forbidden, etc. Only certain Jewish dietary regulations were imposed, such as forbidding to eat meat with blood still in it, and eating the meat of strangled animals.

So, to answer the original poster's question, it was primarily Saint Paul, and the first council held at Jerusalem in 49 AD, that made the changes from restrictive Jewish Law because of the promises of salvation made possible through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Also, there is a passage in the New Testament, that refers to the fact that what you eat does not make you unclean, but it is evil thoughts that makes one unclean. Read the Book of Mark, Chapter 7, verse 16-23:

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 17 And when he was come into the house from the multitude, his disciples asked him the parable. 18 And he saith to them: So are you also without knowledge? understand you not that every thing from without, entering into a man cannot defile him: 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but goeth into the belly, and goeth out into the privy, purging all meats? 20 But he said that the things which come out from a man, they defile a man.

21 For from within out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile a man.

So, you heard it direct from Jesus Christ himself. What you eat does not defile you, but what comes from within your heart - evil thoughts - defiles a man.

That is, if you eat pork - which is probably not the best thing for your health anyways - you have not defiled yourself from a spiritual point of view. What defiles is evil thoughts, not what you eat.

Originally posted by Valhall
Thanks Shar for the question.

I believe it is referring to men. Peter needed to go out and spread the gospel to ALL men, so he had to set aside the old biases.

But I see no problem in taking the vision literally as well. The statement is clearly made there is nothing unclean made of God...so there you go - there is nothing unclean made of God.

At the same time - I don't care one way or the other if anybody (including myself) takes it literal to eating pork. What I find ludicrous - both of Judeaism and Islam is that they believe their connection to their spirituality is so tenuous that a slice of bacon can throw it off. I guess the Jewish/Muslim God connection is chemical. o_O

AMEN.

Serious - if you want to post a post as long as my leg about a subject so trivial and try to start an argument on the interpretation that one group uses that you don't agree with, then bacon must be an absolutely essential subject in your faith - right?

The Mosaic law was a law of living. The majority of the laws were clearly - to anyone who still has their head attached to their body - for the purpose of staying alive. They were hygienic and dietary in nature to keep a nomadic group of people alive during a period of time when they had no Igloo coolers and were not in an environment conducive to sanitary living.

I'm not against anyone strapping the book of Leviticus to their back and beating themselves silly when they find out they broke one of the laws of minutia - but don't assume the rest of us who think there might actually be matters of spiritual importance will be lamenting bacon bits along with you.

[edit on 7-23-2008 by Valhall]

You scriptures are from the old testament.

When Jesus came he declared all meat to be clean. God told St.Peter that nothing he has created is unclean.

Mark 7:18 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?
Mark 7:19 (NIV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

reply to post by Valhall

Originally posted by Valhall
Is it? I think your entire previous post proves my point in the weirdness of dallying on laws of minutia. I'm not sure God's spending a lot of time on minutia...but there sure are a lot of people killing each other over it.

whatever. I'm on a diet right now so I can't have bacon...which makes me holier-than-thou so just get outta my face.

Be nice.

Besides, if it isn't important, why have it there? Why have an entire shelf's worth of what is basically minutia? Coulda just said "I came, I sacrificed, I saved your ass from sin- Believe in me." If there is something with the quality of being GOD'S OWN WORD, I'd think it'd probably be important. God doesn't change.

reply to post by Shar

We are now under the new covenant not the old convenant. During His life, and being a devout Jew, Jesus taught under the Mosaic Law.
The New Covenant (New Testament) was not ushered in until He became the "permanent passover lamb" by being crucified (sacrificed) for the whole human race.
We will not gain eternal life by observing diets, rituals, etc. but only by accepting the "finished work" of Jesus which was accomplished on the cross "Lest any man boast".
You can't put old wine into new wine skins as it will burst the wineskin. In other words, you can't mix law and grace. They are incompatible. To do it results in legalism which is an impediment to the true believer and basically says that Jesus alone is not sufficient for our salvation.
After all, "we are not under law but under grace".
I am glad that Jesus took my sins upon himself as I know what a miserable sinner I have been and am able to be. After all, the God of the Bible requires total perfection always, every second of the day. Thankfully, Christ fulfills the righteous requirements of the Mosaic Law which has given believers "imputed righteousness" in God's sight. We do not have to strive for the ever elusive "perfection". It is a fatal rationalization!
Please accept him before it is too late!

Originally posted by babloyi

Be nice.

Besides, if it isn't important, why have it there? Why have an entire shelf's worth of what is basically minutia? Coulda just said "I came, I sacrificed, I saved your ass from sin- Believe in me." If there is something with the quality of being GOD'S OWN WORD, I'd think it'd probably be important. God doesn't change.

Actually, if you'll notice, I'm being pretty light-hearted. *hint* It was a joke. I don't have to be dead seirous on this if I don't feel like it. And I truly don't. It's not worth being dead (or even murderously or warringly) serious about.

I think I already commented on what I believe the importance of the "shelf of minutia" was. I'm not moving from that opinion for now. God doesn't change -but that doesn't mean He doesn't expect us to. At one point we needed guidance in not making our gut explode from food poisoning...now, we have bigger issues He guides us in. Or, I should say, tries to guide us in. We're too busy killing each other over bacon to listen though.

I know this subject has been a point of contention for centuries and although I’m not a Bible scholar I do have an opinion on this subject.

Peter who was a devout Jew would not associate with gentiles unless directed to by G-d. In Acts chapters 10 and 11 a Roman centurion who was a devout man of G-d was instructed to send for Peter so he could hear his words. The next day Peter had the infamous vision about arising and eating all kinds of forbidden food. According to the book of Acts Peter interpreted this vision as permission from G-d to witness to gentiles not to eat what was forbidden.

The Torah will stand until heaven and earth pass away. Jesus’ own words testify to this in Math 5:18 when he states “For assuredly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

We cannot pick and choose which scriptures to follow, how many people break the 4th commandment every week?

What have you got against pigs ?
I spent time among quite a few of them when I was a boy on the farm.

If you fell down amongst them, you better be up quick and muster a commanding voice.

I' ve seen them devour live chickens and goats- well actually, I mostly heard it...

They will hurt their brother to get more than enough at the trough.

They grunt and squeel when they screw !

The way some folks view the world, to eat pork must be unconsously
an act of cannibalism . Lol

Yuk ! I wouldn't eat it either.

But I do.

Maybe pork shouldn' t be eaten in certain climates where deadly parasites
find their way into hog slop, and then into the happless and doomed
diner.
Don' t Jews also have a prohibition on shellfish ?
I wouldn' t eat anything from a place called The Dead Sea either.

Still, the scriptures are clear- if you care... don' t eat anything with a
corkscrew shaped phall..