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a reply to: rajas
The SRICF is an invitational-body and the SRICF exists in the US. That phrase is used to express that it's not a group simply for those seeking another degree and the rituals don't have anything to do with the Hiramic legend used in Craft Masonry (the Lodge).

Several Northern European countries uses the [url: www.travelingtemplar.com...]Swedish Rite[/url].

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: vethumanbeing

KSigMason: Well, having served as Worthy Patron I am going to call BS on your "secret hierarchy."

Jobies don't have be related to "high ranking Master Masons." They just have to be related to a Master Mason and, in recent legislation, the Associate Bethel Guardian can be a sponsor to a girl who cannot find a close Masonic relationship.

The 14° is not automatically conferred on someone at birth.

Your nickname for the Jobs Daughters is disrespectful. The 14 degrees as Scottish Rite is given at birth (have to qualify however [birthright]).
When did new rules apply and why?

KSigMason: No one is yanking my chain. I've actually been involved with those groups, I'm not just making this stuff up like you are

What would be the point; I tell my truths as I understand them to be. You as are so pressing in your forwardness regarding your beliefs leads me to think you are blustering.

a reply to: vethumanbeing
Jobie is not a disrespectful term. Having served as Associate Bethel Guardian, I will continue to use it. The rule came into affect not too long ago...I'd have dig back through some of my notes to find the exact date.

And no, the 14° is not a birthright.

If you're telling the truth, cite your sources; provide evidence. What experience do you have with these groups? What degree do you hold?

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: vethumanbeing
Jobie is not a disrespectful term. Having served as Associate Bethel Guardian, I will continue to use it. The rule came into affect not too long ago...I'd have dig back through some of my notes to find the exact date.

And no, the 14° is not a birthright.
If you're telling the truth, cite your sources; provide evidence. What experience do you have with these groups? What degree do you hold?

Of course the automatic 14 degrees is based upon Scottish Rite (genetics). Cite sources? provide evidence? What sort of Essene do you take me for?

a reply to: vethumanbeing
So you have no sources and you just expect us to take your word because you call yourself an Essene? What a bunch of nonsense.

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: vethumanbeing
So you have no sources and you just expect us to take your word because you call yourself an Essene? What a bunch of nonsense.

You have the same similar nonsense quotient "who are you" attached as well (speaking for your conscious self only). Do you know what the Essene describes as the foundation for Freemasonry? If not; you are clueless and have no idea of what you speak. There is a reason this information is kept or held as sacred secret knowledge. Who is US? as I am a part of your familial constituency; even if not like minded (weather you like it or not).

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Can I ask why you haven't posted any proof even after ksig asked?

a reply to: vethumanbeing
I'm someone who has first hand experience and research into many of these groups which you have misspoken about. For me to just blindly take your word, I'd have to ignore everything I've seen, experienced, and researched in Freemasonry.

I'm familiar with the Essenes legends and the various origination theories to Freemasonry, but the problem is is there is no evidence to support it and part of the Essene to Templar to Freemasonry legend is that it is based on bad information (Larmenius Charter if I remember right, but I'll have to go back and look) as well as ignoring the fact that their are manuscripts dating Freemasonry to before the Knights Templar. To put it simply, no one knows for sure the exact origins of Freemasonry prior to the existing Lodge records and anyone claiming to know but who doesn't/can't provide evidence is a fraud.

You claiming lineage means nothing to me.

a reply to: nancyliedersdeaddog
What proof needed and why the suspicion inherent in the question?

a reply to: vethumanbeing
Because providing proof is a necessary part of a logical argument? Because evidence gives your argument objectivity and credibility? Because without evidence your statement is merely your opinion and nothing more?

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: vethumanbeing

KSigMason: I'm someone who has first hand experience and research into many of these groups which you have misspoken about. For me to just blindly take your word, I'd have to ignore everything I've seen, experienced, and researched in Freemasonry.

This is a good thing; your research and such; never blind or take as a blink or nod any others observation regarding such things similar/prevalent/pertinent.

KSigMason: I'm familiar with the Essenes legends and the various origination theories to Freemasonry, but the problem is is there is no evidence to support it and part of the Essene to Templar to Freemasonry legend is that it is based on bad information (Larmenius Charter if I remember right, but I'll have to go back and look) as well as ignoring the fact that their are manuscripts dating Freemasonry to before the Knights Templar. To put it simply, no one knows for sure the exact origins of Freemasonry prior to the existing Lodge records and anyone claiming to know but who doesn't/can't provide evidence is a fraud.

How so fraudulent? Where from comes this information? (as is not written for a reason). Freemasonry existed before Knights Templar? NOT SO. Where is your history derived from? NO ONE KNOWS the history? I do and am not a fraud (what fear do you exist within).

KSigMason: You claiming lineage means nothing to me.

WHY WOULD IT? (as is not a personal grievance/attack) otherwise send in the Cairn Terriers to distract.

a reply to: vethumanbeing
Those claiming to have certainty to the origins of Freemasonry are fraudulent because no evidence exists to support it and often their theories can be (and have been debunked) by historians such as Stephen Dafoe (who wrote a book debunking many myths about the origins of Freemasonry and its ties to the medieval Knights Templar).

The Regius Poem (or Halliwell) manuscript (along with other manuscripts) dates Freemasonry back to a meeting at York presided over by King Athelstan. Some, even you, may criticize its history and authenticity, but its more documentation than you've provided.

If your knowledge on our history is comparative to your knowledge of the Scottish Rite, the Masonic youth groups, and the Order of the Eastern Star, then I am disinclined to believe you have any understanding of the history and origins of Freemasonry. I have no fear of you, I just abide liars and frauds pretending to speak the truth, but provide no evidence of it. What do you have to fear by citing your sources?

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: vethumanbeing

KSigMason: Those claiming to have certainty to the origins of Freemasonry are fraudulent because no evidence exists to support it and often their theories can be (and have been debunked) by historians such as Stephen Dafoe (who wrote a book debunking many myths about the origins of Freemasonry and its ties to the medieval Knights Templar).

I am in perfect agreement: I have no idea why Stephen Dafoe would attempt to write about something (as one so ill equipped to describe) in any accuracy. What was he thinking?

KSigMason: The Regius Poem (or Halliwell) manuscript (along with other manuscripts) dates Freemasonry back to a meeting at York presided over by King Athelstan. Some, even you, may criticize its history and authenticity, but its more documentation than you've provided.

Date? My calendar starts at AD 72 Qumran end point; starting point (not telling) as is before and after.

KSigMason: If your knowledge on our history is comparative to your knowledge of the Scottish Rite, the Masonic youth groups, and the Order of the Eastern Star, then I am disinclined to believe you have any understanding of the history and origins of Freemasonry. I have no fear of you, I just abide liars and frauds pretending to speak the truth, but provide no evidence of it. What do you have to fear by citing your sources?

Our history?; you speak of me as not being one of you; but this is the way of the suspicious ones, that do not hold the ultimate truth; you show yourself in ignorance (unfortunately not playful). Sources? you should know this COLD as you recite your ABC's.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Proof is needed because you made a claim and someone asked you nicely for links which are good both reasons to post proof (not to mention you are claiming a well know members who's very knowledgeable on this subject doesn't know what he's talking about). Why are you so against posting proof?

originally posted by: nancyliedersdeaddog
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Proof is needed because you made a claim and someone asked you nicely for links which are good both reasons to post proof (not to mention you are claiming a well know members who's very knowledgeable on this subject doesn't know what he's talking about). Why are you so against posting evidence that back up your claim?

originally posted by: nancyliedersdeaddog
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Proof is needed because you made a claim and someone asked you nicely for links which are good both reasons to post proof (not to mention you are claiming a well know members who's very knowledgeable on this subject doesn't know what he's talking about). Why are you so against posting proof?

What claim? My authenticity to what designated? I am a VeteranHumanBeing. What do I have to prove beyond that statement (true).

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Let's first start with posting proof that the 14 degree is a birth right which ksig first asked for.

a reply to: vethumanbeing
Don't attempt to misrepresent what I said. I'm not criticizing or questioning Sir Knight Dafoe's work. Unlike you, Stephen Dafoe actually uses facts and provides evidence of his assertions. Something you have yet to do.

If you have a starting date of 72 AD, then post the evidence that shows exact linkages.

Being an self-proclaimed Essene doesn't make you a Freemason. If you say you are Mason then what Lodge do you belong to? Why are you afraid to name sources and provide evidence?

You show yourself to be living proof that those who speak in absolutes are absolutely foolish.

a reply to: vethumanbeing
Your statements.

originally posted by: nancyliedersdeaddog
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Let's first start with posting proof that the 14 degree is a birth right which ksig first asked for.

What is the problem? If one is of Scottish Rite (by birth) is given automatically 14 degrees (I know it seems unfair) but is just what it is. No Crying Allowed.

a reply to: vethumanbeing
Except that isn't true and you haven't proven it be true (simply saying it is isn't proof).