The Usa should go Isolationist

reply to post by Wotan



I only disagree on a couple of points...

I would keep the military size and development, we don't want to have to use manpower i.e. a Billion plus people to be a deterent...

It's not the carriers and equip or research that costs so much... it's our active engagements and forward bases, we'd want mobile forward bases in case anyone was a wise ass

I figure without the oil and costs of mobilization and money out to bribe us into other nations and constant overseas training we save between 300-400 billion, that would triple education and domestic spending and pay for health care


and I don't really see the wall to mexico as being needed, I like the NAU concept and the continent if we allowed legal immigration and made it easy would absorb 40 million mexicans...

I would demand at the least mexico makes land purches by Americans and Canadians as such that the state can't just sieze them.. reverse the flow, help their economy...

I like Mexicans, they really are nice people, mainly catholic, speak a Latin language...

Right now we pay for half the world to exisit, we could help Just Mexico out and make it the resort capital of the world a great place for cheep beach houses for the rest of us... it could be awesome... take back a few hundred billion in aid from africa nad the mideast... plenty of capacity to fix the mexican situation readilly, have friends... a continent at total peace...

besides, we'd still have this tense border, by being cool to mexico we would have to Militarize he border of Belize lol... it's what 156 feet?

It's startegically better to have a strong intigrated mexico and watch gaurd over central america... small border and the real scum and anti americans and drugs pass that border and you could put a new canal down there that we own and safegaurd it...

complex reasons but... Mexico is okay, just needy... we should prioritize fixing our neighbors and g-d knows we spend the money on everyone else

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant
I don't know why, but the image the title of this thread conjured in my mind was that of an old western shoot-out.

You know, when everyone shuts their windows and doors and cowers inside their homes?

No, just economics... Americans need more culture, we want to be friendly go abroad tourism is fine...

Just end immigration from backwards places, stop buying cheep #, don't pump up nations that hate us with oil money, we fund all these problems

and it's not working, you need regionalization prior to globalization, w are skipping an important step...or trying to do it all at once and it = fail

Just, we should take alot of steps... first being grow our oil and stop supporting the third world, second, we aren't the cops... we are not, I never asked for this job and no one appreciates it and it's liable to be the end of us too...

it's alot of money, europe should defend itself, Europe borders Russia and the mideast not us... even as a Jew, Isreal, has a problem we can't fix or might get jacked trying... these just aren't american issues we are risking and spending everything
for

Originally posted by Queen Maeve
"Isolationist" has too many negative connotations and political bagage.

I prefer to say "Self-Contained and Non-Interventionist" borrowing the later bit from Rep. Dr. Ron Paul.

"Self-Contained and Non-Interventionst" : if a political party offered that vision for America, I would vote for them in a heartbeat.

wow, that is alot better and more of what i'm saying, self contained and non interventionist

I love it

Originally posted by BladeGlint
Be careful what you wish for.......

Imagine if every country did this.

Us Aussie's will do alright.....

Edit: (little spelling whoopsy)

[edit on 11-7-2008 by BladeGlint]

Aye, Aussie always has the potential to be right alongside economically of America with this program...

Originally posted by mopusvindictus

it's alot of money, europe should defend itself, Europe borders Russia and the mideast not us... even as a Jew, Isreal, has a problem we can't fix or might get jacked trying... these just aren't american issues we are risking and spending everything
for

Correct, but then, what happened to the old american way of life involving the "All or Nothing" mentality?

It would seem Georgey boy put his foot in it with his "War on terror".

reply to post by madhatr137


Yeah well, maybe more socialism really isn't as bad as people would think... my change of heart on this subject has been very rapid...

Economically... we are bankrupt,

Bankruptcy is an opportunity, as an entrepreneur this is how I see it... Our real power our control isn't guns it's farms, without our food and throw in Australia on that the world is F'd... If Europe and Asia have to feed the mideast and Africa... we have infinitely more wealth and power...

the whole thing would be very messy... recall all our troops and again we get back hundreds of Billions a year, while everyone else has to double triple spending...

it's kind of screwed up to do, but at this time our survival is at risk, we are bankrupt, have to face reality

we have food, we have water, we have a fantastic infrastructure, we have an education system that just needs alittle more funding, our electric needs are electric, we have the oil capacity and the farms

we have the ability to...declare bankruptcy and restructure like any good business would do at this point and time

reply to post by Anti-Tyrant


I being jewish had to give this alot , alot of thought lately and... Isreal, the Juice won't be and already isn't worth the squeeze for anyone... even my people

we can, complete keep the element off thecontinent here, Islam is on a cultural Jihad... but it's Europes problem not ours...

Isreal is drawing us into this and... well, I don't believe we were even meant as Jews to be there... I think Moses happened to die there, but that he had Pharoahs maps and was heading to The New World... Isreal was a port with trees... it kind of adds up

I mean, and I'm a Jew...what was the "land prepared in the wilderness" the "land of milk and honey" obviously these are refrences to the new world

I think it's time the Jews went to America, we are excepted here, we have the room and the ethnic base to fit into and... they would be safe sooner or later they will loose, maybe after 7 winning wars...maybe they best this too... but, we aren't wanted there and...

spiritually, we should one up the world... it would be epic... her you go guys, we are a religion of peace not you...walk away, if you believe in g-d and he intended the jews to have it, he will deliver it not the british...

Until then Miami and Ny rock compared to Isreal, sorry but... true is true...

sometimes you have to know when to take a step back to go two forward, that's all

reply to post by mopusvindictus


I think you have missed the whole point of what I was saying and of what Isolationism is ........

If you want to be Isolated you dont need:- A large Navy, especially carriers, large military as its now just a defence force, you dont need overseas bases as there is no longer any need. Isolationism is inward not outward projection, hence you no longer need a large military .... just enough to defend your country.

Isolationism is withdrawing back to ones own country and be dammed to the rest of the world. Basically you put the walls and shutters up.

You then concentrate on industries within your own border and spend the taxes on your own infrastructure, like health, education, job creation, energy - the idea is to become totally self-sufficient and nationally debt-free.

Originally posted by Wotan
reply to post by mopusvindictus

 

I think you have missed the whole point of what I was saying and of what Isolationism is ........

If you want to be Isolated you dont need:- A large Navy, especially carriers, large military as its now just a defence force, you dont need overseas bases as there is no longer any need. Isolationism is inward not outward projection, hence you no longer need a large military .... just enough to defend your country.

Isolationism is withdrawing back to ones own country and be dammed to the rest of the world. Basically you put the walls and shutters up.

You then concentrate on industries within your own border and spend the taxes on your own infrastructure, like health, education, job creation, energy - the idea is to become totally self-sufficient and nationally debt-free.

yeah, I agree... I kind of see isolationism for america as being continental, north american... we need canadian water and...it's our only borders

but the point on carriers is debateable... If you have them a leader can always redirect them and bring us back in the loop, which means I can say your right, on a level, it's maybe a danger to have them..

But at the same time... and this is theory and projection of thought. I would expect China to, rampage if left alone and russia too...no idea how the middle east situation would turn out...

we'd be looking at other superpowers genuine rising via war in Euro Asia no matter what... so having the ability to still project power is a strong deterent to stay away from us via warfare...

so it's a hard issue... I like a srong military, but do understand it could lead to getting back into this situation

reply to post by Wotan


the thing that I find funny is that your location says Isle of Wright, if that's so, what say do you have in American domestic and foreign policy?

We were isolationist after the first world war, or so we tried. Let's be honest, we haven't been isolationist ever since the declaration of the Monroe doctrine when we said *no interference in the Americas by European powers*. That's when we took the mantle of a guardian state. We tried it after the first world war and that didn't last long. We tried staying neutral during WWII and we got nailed at Pearl Harbor (even though the responsibility for those attacks is up for grabs in a lot of people's minds). And even before that, we were supplying the Brits with aid against Germany.
After WWII we pretty much have had a global presence.

I personally think we need to be more involved in the world, whether it be providing Africa and Latin America with aid or watching Israel's back, after all, wasn't that what gave America it's Image of righteousness?

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Economically, we are bankrupt, absolutely right...but if the US was to suddenly just "declare bankrupcy"... We're trillions of dollars in the red...not billions...trillions. I suppose China and Europe would just sit back and say, "oh, you're filing for bankrupcy...well, that sucks...well, okay, if you're broke, we'll let you off..." A nation cannot simply declare bankupcy and then write it off like some company or individual...it goes well beyond "screwed up". The global reprecussions of such an act would be catastrophic to the entire world's economy, it would plunge us into a global freefall that would only end in complete complete chaos and war.

I think what I'm trying to say, in all, is that the isolationist mentality is rediculous...we are too globalized, there is no going back, sans some global catastrophy. We're in this mess because of the Neocons, and there is no way out of suffering the pain that is due us, as Americans for following them...And they're laughing all the way to the bank because their Cayman and Swiss accounts are full to the brim.

Besides, do you really think that the corps. that have control of this country would allow such a thing? It would destroy their profits. It would take away their control of the markets. It isn't going to happen. Plain and simple.


That being said....I say you can help by supporting small, local businesses and farms......its the best thing to do, ethically...

Originally posted by Wotan
If i was the US President, this is what I would do ......

1. Return the US to an Isolationist/Non-interventionist state.

2. Recall the Military from overseas, except from its own territory, ie Guam.

3. Reduce the Military manpower and scrap/mothball most of the Carriers.

4. Reduce and redirect some of the Military Budget to Nation Building/Protection projects - ie, give NASA more funding for 'big' projects.

5. Build a ''Great Wall of America'' across the southern border with Mexico from coast to coast - at least 50ft high - a bit like Hadrians Wall across Scotland.

6. Create a welfare state - where ALL Americans would benefit from FREE healthcare.

7. Make Lobbying from private industry illegal. Reduce political funding (capped) for campaigns to encourage smaller political parties to take part in the process - to make it truly democratic.

8. Repatriate illegal aliens to their own country.

There, you have a start.

Well said. I agree 100%. There is a lot of change that needs to take place and there will be a time of "trouble" as we go through these motions.

Someone correct me if I am wrong:

US debt to other countries is largely unsecured. It is a "good faith" loan.

reply to post by madhatr137



I basically think they would just take it, what would you do? It goes in conjunction with forming an Nau, the United Staes would no longer actually exist.

Maybe some sort of concessions, but like all or any debt settlement... your going to come through alot better off.

reply to post by madhatr137


Most of the important corps are international entities, so why should they care? They could care less about the USA, a new Union works fine by them, their money is in switzerland and the Bahamas and who knws where else, the weeks prior there would be a massive drain of funds from the US.

They don't loose a dime

No reason not to do this Imho

It will be a really bad year, but that's all if people don't panic

i know we all are suppost to hate walmart

but where else will i get anything at 4am on a weekday?

if local markets were willing to stay open past midnight...maybe walmart wouldn't be so powerful. as much as i dislike their policys, they do cater to me by staying open 24/7

im just pointing out a reason behind the way things are this way.

its because mom and pop werent willing to adapt to the new market.
all they need to do is get their kids to run the shop at night lol



[edit on 11-7-2008 by muzzleflash]

reply to post by wdkirk


No you'd be correct and that debt is so scattered... I mean, most nations will have to forgive it

The "we supply 30% of the worlds food" is the part that matters...

and we are jacking oil above the price of domestic biodeisel and shale on purpose before hand...

so the food alone, we have this over a barrel... I seriously think Bankruptcy is the plan...

Originally posted by Daedalus24
reply to post by Wotan

 

the thing that I find funny is that your location says Isle of Wright, if that's so, what say do you have in American domestic and foreign policy?

What the hell my does my being non-american have to do with this debate? This is a free forum and an international one. The OP never said ONLY AMERICANS REPLY to this thread. Pffff, I thought you guys were all for freedom of speech - seems i was wrong.

In the self-contained country scenario, I would fully support the NAU. Let me explain.

If we closed off the borders with the rest of the world, we could open up the border to Canada and Mexico and allow free travel for all. There would not be a need to call it the North American Union, just open it up in the same manner. All three countries keep their own individual identity and culture, only with open sharing of trade and travel.

Militaristically, the three soveriegns would work jointly to secure our allied borders. If anyone was stupid enough to think that they could use any one of them as a conduit to the other, a unified force would meet them and show them the error of their way

Foreign trade would consist of Canadian, American and Mexican items in all three countries. With the combined resources of the three, there would be little need at all from the rest of the world. Essentially, NAFTA would be put to good use and the three countries would prosper together.

As to foreign immigrants, if they are here they have a choice. Stay here and join in this new unified environment, or go home. A one time pass issued to those that want to stay and prosper or go home and live that life. The new United America would remain culturally diverse, retain a strong work force (intellectually and physically).

The governments of the 3 nations could work together to maintain heathy populations, safe from attack, starvation, international illness and more.

If the three nations would go along with this, I think it would make for our own more pleasant corner of the world.