To the deeply religious who feel god has made a change in their lives... answer this

reply to post by bigbert81


typical response

you have no idea what i was trying to convey

reply to post by bigbert81


Secular Humanists are almost all Darwinists. Charles Darwin is famous for having said,

"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference"

I think the reason your dream of atheist humanist utopia will never happen is your own philosophy of Darwinism. There is no good or evil, it's survival of the fittest. Secular Humanism contradicts itself.

Maybe it'll help you understand that there are several, several humanitarian atheists, so drop the whole 'you need to believe in God to do humanitarian work', or the 'only Christians are good people' crap.

Wow hold on to your hat Mother Teresa there are several humanitarian atheists. Several what's that mean? Perhaps slightly more than two?

I don't deny some atheists are good people - after all they can't help it they are created in Gods image. However, no one can deny that the vast majority of charities are religious in nature. Ypou are also in error in that Christians are the ones that admit they are sinners in need of savior. Its the Secular Humanists that claim they are the "good" people of their own accord.



[edit on 5/26/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by drevill


Really?

I'm sorry, but I didn't think that this quote:

in my opinion the child should have been helped by humans, however that said is it not better for a child to die and then wake and live for eternity with Jesus in a paradise or to struggle next to death for days,weeks,months or years?

was that hard to mix up.

Please, tell me what you meant. That it's better the child just die because you think he's going to paradise?

Or am I reading this wrong?

Originally posted by Lantian
reply to post by AlexG141989

 

Who says he helps any of us? it's all conjecture and subjective.

i know i know, personally i dont believe in divine intervention... im just trying to understand the logic of these people who think they're so special that god would save them but forget about people like the kid in the pic

reply to post by bigbert81


ok

im speaking as a Christian.

is it better to prolong the suffering? No!

as humans we attach certain responses to death, such as yours or any others. what i am saying is that death to a Christian is not a thing of dread or the final moment before completely coming to an end.

my own opinion as a Christian is that children will be saved and live with Jesus in a wonderful world. That child at the moment of death is very next thought will be awake with Jesus, it will be like the blink of an eye for it would seem as no time had passed.

I'm not saying let the child die as i suspect you think i am, of course everything should be done possible to save it. You asked why GOD might let this child die and i gave you an answer from how i believe God would see it. he doesn't attach the same thoughts as we do,

david

reply to post by AlexG141989

. im just trying to understand the logic of these people who think they're so special that god would save them but forget about people like the kid in the pic

I gave you four very compelling reasons right here Alex.

Guess what Alex you are so special that he will save you just because he knows you have a heart for kids like the one in that picture. Perhaps thats what's going on here Alex. Maybe you are being called into missionary work.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


It doesn't have to be 'survival of the fittest' anymore.

Wow hold on to your hat Mother Teresa there are several humanitarian atheists. Several what's that mean? Perhaps slightly more than two?

Cute. I would've thought you would have been able to see what I was saying, but I apparently held my hopes up too high for you.

Forget this whole 'Christians are good' crap. The vast majority of religious people I know are also the most selfish. Atheist humanitarians are the best people I have ever met, and if everyone shared their views, instead of looking to God to 'save them', the world would be in a much better place.

reply to post by bigbert81


Bert, your seeming hatred for the rest of humanity is backing you in to a perpetual corner. We all would love to speculate what we'd do in the situation, and given the fact that we have very little facts to go on, going off on a tangent trying to assume things you have no clue about helps very little.

We don't have much more than suspect speculation to go off of so why even try?

As horrifying as it is, we should all do our part. But you have no idea what size part you could handle. What if when you do get to Sudan, you find the problem too much for even you to fathom? Everyone has self-pity respectful of their situation, which is sad, but again, this man made the picture known. How many hundreds of people do you think moved to Sudan to help based on this photo?

Calm down. Don't put yourself into shoes you've never even seen.

what form do people expect ` divine intervention ` to take ?

try this annecdonte :

a town is in the path of a rising flood - so the authorities commanderr every bus and truck availiable and organise an evacuation convoy - with seats availiable for everyone - all leave , except one man who tells the bus driver that he does not need to get on the bus - because god will save him - so the busses drive away

the waters rise untill the ground floors are flooded - so the guy goes upstairs - by now the marines have arived with boats and are searching the town rescueing any one still trapped - they see the man praying @ his bedroom window and paddle over - climb in they tell him - we can paddle you to saftey - no he tells them i dont need your boat - god will save me

so the marines paddle away , the waters rise more - so the guy climbs out the attic skykight and sits on the chimney

at this point - the airforce arive - with helicopters - and do a final search for any one still trapped - they see the guy sat on his chmney and lower the winch - put the strap around your waist they tell him - we can fly you to saftey -

but go away he tells them - i do not need you - god will save me

so they fly off , the waters rise again - and the guy drowns

when he gets to heaven - he asks st peter , why did god not save me - i prayed ?

pardon says st peter - god sent a bus , a boat and a helicopter to save you - what the heck did yiou want ?



[edit on 26-5-2008 by ignorant_ape]

AlexG141989.. I should say damn you for showing that but
It sure makes a statement.
GOD...... hmmmmmmmmmm.......?

respect others believe systems......hmmmmmmm......?????
I know that sounds right ........but....

What if someone is taught a false/untrue system ??
should we still respect it?

Yes?

what if this believe system has a large say in politics and business??
and could gather loyal followers at amazing rates.
and could act out in extreme deadly ways in the name of this
false/untrue system.
well......
that could get just plain stupid real fast..............right?

reply to post by bigbert81

Forget this whole 'Christians are good' crap. The vast majority of religious people I know are also the most selfish. Atheist humanitarians are the best people I have ever met, and if everyone shared their views, instead of looking to God to 'save them', the world would be in a much better place.

But it's not crap that most all charities, orphanages, homeless shelters, soup kitchens and relief workers are religious. It's an indisputable fact.

I allowed that there are good atheists. But a good philosophy humanism does not make. An extremely poor one by historical review.

Lets see if atheists are in charge it would be a much better place you say? Oh you mean like China? Or North Korea? Perhaps the former Soviet Union? Maybe Pol Pots Cambodia? Hmmm maybe Viet Nam? Well sorry those are the countries with official atheists stances on religion. Sorry but I'll pass on your "humanist utopian nightmare" for the future.

I'll take the United States Declaration of Indendence's

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

over the false doctrines of secular humanism any day. If human rights only come from the opinions of men then men have the right to take them away. That's why secular humanism always turns into a North Korea or China situation.

Originally posted by AlexG141989
it kinda makes me mad when i think of situations like this

You say it "kinda" makes you mad, does it or doesn't it ? Do you really care about the starving children of third world countries ? If it does make you mad and you do care, then do something about it.


There are plenty of organizations that you could donate money to that help to bring food, clothing and medical supplies to these children. You can see the commercials on tv all the time.


Just think if you took all the time and energy that you waste bashing god, christians, and religion and used it to help these children you may be able to help many of them. Even if you only help one that's one less child that you will see in a picture like that.


So instead of asking questions like "why doesn't God" ask instead "why don't I" ?

I don't understand.

If dying is instant reunion with Jesus then why would anyone ever take steps to prevent some one from dying?

And what's all this about 'God's plan'..that sounds like an excuse for anything.

If it's God's plan for people in Africa to starve are the perpetrators of all this to be rewarded for carrying out God's plan and hastening people's 'return to Jesus'?

And I thought you had to be a Christian to reunite with Jesus. What if that little girl wasn't a Christian?

The logical conclusion to some of these beliefs is scary.

Originally posted by ElusiveGoddess
I don't understand.

If dying is instant reunion with Jesus then why would anyone ever take steps to prevent some one from dying?

You're mixing the actions of men with the actions of God, which is what this thread is about. Why do people cry at funerals? Are they truly crying for the person who died, or for themselves because they no longer get to see that person? The person who is dead isn't in any pain, it's the living who suffer the pain of separation. Whether they realise it or not, they are crying for themselves, and those who continue to suffer.

Originally posted by ElusiveGoddess
And what's all this about 'God's plan'..that sounds like an excuse for anything.

An excuse for what? If people were actually following the ways of God, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

Originally posted by ElusiveGoddess
If it's God's plan for people in Africa to starve are the perpetrators of all this to be rewarded for carrying out God's plan and hastening people's 'return to Jesus'?

Now that's an excuse. It's not God's plan for people to starve in Africa, that is a byproduct of us not following God's plan. God set out a way of life so this sort of thing wouldn't happen, needless suffering. The needless suffering comes about because mankind won't follow the way of God. The people who perpetrate these actions will in no means be rewarded, they are directly defying the ways of God given to man. Feed the poor, thou shalt not kill etc.

Originally posted by ElusiveGoddess
And I thought you had to be a Christian to reunite with Jesus. What if that little girl wasn't a Christian?

The Bible says everyone is resurrected, though some make a direct choice to reject God, and because of this end up in the lake of fire. This child never even got to make that choice. It will be made in the future. The thing is, they will be able to make a more informed decision now, because they will have the evidence and results of 1000 years of Christ reigning on Earth to look at, and this child won't have a lifetime of polution floating through it's head. But when all is said and done, this child died due to the actions of man. Sure God could have performed some miracle to keep it alive, but from God's perspective, knowing the difference between this world and the next, what do you think would be more merciful?

Originally posted by ElusiveGoddess
The logical conclusion to some of these beliefs is scary.

Logical conclusion? Only if you call logic twisting something to make something look scary.

Any young child which has not yet reached the "Age of Accountability" will be instantly with Jesus upon their death. The Bible says any person is only held accountable for that which he knows...

Jesus said that it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. This Judgment Day is also when all people will be separated into two categories, the sheep and the goats. The Bible says the only difference between the sheep and the goats is what you have or have not done for your fellow man. In that day, many will say, Lord, when did I see you hungry and not feed you? When did I see You thirsty and did not give You a cup of water? When did I see You naked and cold and did not clothe You? And Jesus replied, In as much as you did or did not do it unto the least of these your brethren (fellow human beings), you did or did not do it unto Me.That seems simple enough to me...

The Lord desires us to have life abundantly, but He wants us to desire the Spiritual things and not the carnal...when God made Adam and Eve, they were made to never die, but to live eternally in a paradise, where only peace and joy and love reigned. By failing to be obedient to God's one rule, sin was found in Mankind and the Bible says the wages of sin is death. Through sin, death came to man, and now we must toil and labor to keep alive. Sickness, plague, famine, pain, cruelty, dishonesty, the negative things of this world, came by way of fallen man.

And yet, God made a way for us to come back to Him freely, though we are sinners, and deserving of death, He gave us His son, Jesus Christ, to pay the debt we could never pay. The blood of the Precious Lamb of God was spilled out at Calvary to atone for our sin and to pay our debt with God, that we could live eternally with Him in Heaven.

This poor, tiny, little baby, crawling to try and find a bite of food makes my heart ache. Imagine how God felt when He watched the photographer take that picture and walk away. There is no way any one person can save everybody, but it was in his power to save that one! Why did he not carry her to the feeding station she was attempting to crawl to? What would it have cost him to carry this one child to safety? I know someone else already said this but I am always appalled to see people allow Nature's cruelty to spend itself for the sake of a documentary or a Pulitzer Prize...it is no wonder the poor man killed himself later...imagine what torment his soul must have been in when he realized what he failed to do for one of the least of these? But would it not have been better to go back and try to help another child instead of taking his life and letting the lesson go to waste?

I am thankful to God and Jesus for saving my soul and my life. I am thankful I live in America. My list of blessings is endless. I cannot save everyone but I have taken in 3 children and have been raising them since 1995. I help my neighbors and people God sends into my life for me to help along the way. Have I done all I could have done? Surely not! I have yet to lay down my life for another. We are to be God's hands and feet on this earth. Some people we meet only need a hug or a kind word, some need groceries or clothing or money for a light bill. I try not to miss the mark, but I'm afraid I often do. What ever gifts God gives me I am to share with others, both physical and spiritual gifts. I am without excuse for my failures, and so I thank God for His Son Jesus' blood...my only plea when I stand before Him on that Judgment Day!

Your question seemed sincere and I hope you will read my answer with the same respect. It is very hard to understand why things like this happen to innocent little children. It's a hard thing to find an answer to, and all I can tell you is that it is what is meant by faith. I have faith in Him and some day I will know why all things played out the way they did. In the meantime, I just hold onto His Hands and try to do the best I can to keep on keeping on!

Originally posted by AlexG141989
ok but look... the question is why would god help a regular person but forget about this child??? you didnt answer the question you just came up with a lame copout.... and if God allowed the kid to die in order to show us what were doing to the children of the world... how come nothing has changed??? gods way of doing things obviously is not working...

OP .. you've got it all wrong.

For one, God isnt omnipotent.

For two, God cannot directly interfere in a life unless asked by that specific person. I know that sounds screwey, but it is so free will does not become ruined or damaged.

For three, God DID help that child as much as God has the power to (right now). He sent educated, well fed Western men there to take pictures. And the boy was found and photographed, then left to die. This depressed the guy who knew he should've helped the child, causing him to commit suicide. This is because he realized God brought him there not just to show the world, but also to help the boy, and the guy only cared about the world and not the boy. The truth is, the most "God" can do to help that child back at the moment that was happening, was to send someone to the boy's aid. This is what God did, but the person used their free will just to snap a photo instead of helping. It's really quite simple. I wouldnt have left the boy to die. You see, photographers who take pictures of animals and nature often do not involve themselves in the animal's plight no matter what, but this is a human being.

[edit on 5/26/2008 by runetang]

I do feel sadness for children suffering all over the world. I contribute to several sources to help this problem.. To answer your question. God allows us to help them..

Though we may see many inequities in life, it is not for mortal man to question God. May be that those who he lets dies are the ones who are saved from the misery.

David Siedlar

This is a deep one. And a legitimate question.

The first thing to say is that I, along with the rest of the human race, have a heart that is desperately hard. The fact that I saw that photo 5 minutes ago and am still not weeping proves it. The fact that I talk about such issues more than trying to do something further backs this up. And the fact I will walk away from this discussion shortly and forget about it is the final straw. God be merciful to me, a sinner.

Bookshelves, nay entire libraries can be filled with published attempts to address this question, so I am not going to be able to answer it to the satisfaction of many. I do, however, feel the need to say something.

1) Why do people blame God for the bad but not thank him for the good?

Just a quick example. A friend told me about an elderly lady who had become bitter against God for taking her husband through death. When he asked her whether the husband had brought her a lot of happiness, she said 'Yes'. When he asked her whether she had ever thought of thanking God for her husband and the blessing he had brought her, she said 'No'. When my friend walked away she was starting to see things in a new light.

I am not being facetious. The picture that started this thread speaks of a despicable world. The world is beautiful and full of marvels. But it is largely morally despicable. And I am part of it.

Nevertheless I wish to say that the question posed is a theological one. God permits this world full of suffering to continue. The question 'Why?' is fair. The claim 'It disproves a loving Maker' assumes there are no answers, which is false. The Bible hints at answers, but also holds a veil over a complete explanation.

2) I am utterly appalled to think what might have happened after the child was left. Words cannot express my disgust. Yet I have another perspective which does not explain everything, but provides a measure of consolation. That child is now at peace, in Glory.


Now here comes some anger. It will be short and sweet:

Why do we spend hundreds of billions on NASA when much of the world is starving?

My answer: human depravity.


I want to finish on a note of hope. Faith in God is not weakened by the reality of suffering. I have been studying the Bible for decades and come to the conclusion it describes the mess we are in better than any politician, philosopher or scientist the world has ever known. It says God made this world perfect. Man turned from his Maker, became corrupt as a result, and has lived under a curse ever since. When I read the Gospel I see the lengths God was prepared to go to to offer a way out: He came as a man and took the worst this world has to offer in order that we might turn back to Him and learn to love Him and His ways rather than remain rebels.

Alex, I have failed to answer your question to the extent I wish I could. However I offer this thread I started in the hope of addressing just such issues, in the hope it might just challenge the widespread assumption that when facing up to the realities of life it is impossible to believe in and love and trust your Maker:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

You point to the result of mans sin and say God should do something about it. Now it was Gods plan that their be no sickness and death at all, he gave us the tree of life that would have cured our ailments. You might say why does God allow death at all, well when man sinned he didn't want us to live forever in a fallen state so he took away the tree of life. God does work within the lives of his people, to care for people in third world countries, it is only the goodness of God that allows programs like the salvation army and those organizations that help to feed third world countries.

I believe that if God were here in physical form just the way he was when Jesus walked the earth there would be alot less sickness and death in the world and alot less hungry. But even Jesus did not heal as abundantly when the people had no faith. One of Jesus primary missions was to feed the poor. He taught many parables about his views on the rich vs the poor and that the rich should help the poor. The rich young ruler was told by Jesus to sell all he had and to give it to the poor. God is limited, by his own design and plan, to allow us a chance to do his will in feeding the poor, problem is when Gods people get selfish and don't share with others then how will the poor be fed?

I think one of the biggest problems in the USA is we don't see it, I know I have attempted a few times to go and find the poor in my own locality but have not found any, these pictures from a third world country show a problem that exists thousands of miles away from those that would or could do something. I would really like at some point to immerse myself in a third world country to help the poor but if you are over there with them then how will you help them being one of them?

Jesus said the poor you always have with you so God knows the problem of people being poor and hungry will continue, I would think even until the end of the world, but that is mans lot, when we left his perfect will in the garden of eden we have suffered the consequences since then, and this being one of them.

Please Please Please, don't blame the goodness of God on mans own failures, if only more people were truely led by the will of God then wouldn't these poor be satisfied? So is it Gods fault or our lack of faith and compassion that causes these poor to starve?