3 Students Suspended for not Standing for Pledge

Kids taking the pledge every day seems like something you'd expect to see in Saudi Arabia or China or something, not the US. It looks so weird, like the American people are so insecure about their country that they feel they have to have their kids forced to say nice things about it every morning.

Obviously I'm just a European, who's never been forced to salute anything I didn't want to, so I apologise if this post sounds rude.

Surely a forced show of respect is no show of respect at all. If the pledge is worth saying at all by anyone, everyone should be free to opt-out of saying it, otherwise the very fact that some kids are forced into saying it means it's a completely empty gesture.

I've always though that this pledge of allegiance was nothing more than state mandated indoctrination. The attitude of some, that they will support their country, right or wrong just beggars belief. Allegiance to a corrupt state that plays on peoples false sense of patriotism is disgusting.

The following story seems a little disturbing if true (which I can quite believe these days).

www.prisonplanet.com...

Labeled a terrorist for supporting the constitution? The very one that GWB himself took an oath to uphold when taking office? How very odd!
Shame on the student for trying to pollute young minds with ideas of fairness and rights instead of blind obedience to the state (very stalinist).

reply to post by AceWombat04


Bravo Bravo!

That is soooo stupid!
Getting Suspended for not standing for the pledge....hmmm

For crying out loud, WE ARE NOT WORSHIPING THE FLAG!! OMG!!

America, what going on?!!?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Threadfall
If they broke a school rule then they should be punished. This was not some noble protest, it was probably about some lazy punks being a$$es. Geeez, just stand put your hand on your chest and sing along in your head the lyrics to your favorite song. Protest for the sake of protest is asinine, but then some people aren't happy unless people are looking in them. The OP makes it sound like this horrible, wanton punishment. Boo hoo. I'll save my tears (and support) for real travesties

Are you for real?

Yea I am. Humor me if you will, what in your view is so unreal about what I said? I'm just your stereotypical sheeple/skeptic/disinformationist that thinks this is a non story. Kids get suspended for not saying the pledge and all of a sudden people are talking like we live in a police state. The punishment was issued by the local school district not the federal government for god's sake.

No offense to those that have served or are serving in our armed forces, but isn't the whole reason we fight for our freedoms is so that we can choose not to stand for the Pledge if we don't want to?

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
The flag represents something very sacred to a lot of people.

Then you pledge your allegiance to it.

If you really want to make a difference and give your flag back some solid stature, why don't you lobby your Congress to make sure that flags are made in the U.S. instead of China or Taiwan.

Good for these kids, and I hope that they get whatever they can out of this.

reply to post by elderban


That's why I never stood because I knew it was my right and I disagreed with pledging to anybody but myself. Especially every day! That's brain washing if you ask me 12 years every day standing up pledging allegiance to the flag.

Lost a whole post, sorry

[edit on 13-5-2008 by blowfishdl]

the patriotic thing in the states is out of hand. Its used all the time by the government & media to stifle criticism. If your anti-war they say your not supporting the troops and being unpatriotic.

its one of bill oreillys favourite weapons in any criticism of the bush government. They blur the line between patriotism for your country & support of the government. Very much how communist governments like north korea operate.

im only against the pledge becuase of the way patriotism is used by governments to push their agenda.


[edit on 13-5-2008 by yeti101]

Wow I'm shocked at how many people here are against those who choose not to stand for the pledge!

Fact of the matter is it's a constitutional right - ruled so by the Supreme Court. If you are patriotic, you respect the Supreme Court's rulings.

Therefor, these kids should not be in any trouble at all. Suspended and taken away from their education - that's so wrong.

reply to post by queenT

these kids are in school, and they didn't follow the rules--period.

This is exactly why I'm extremely apprehensive about sending my kid to school. We've pretty much decided to home-school. Rarely a day goes by when I don't hear about some kid getting suspended or expelled for heinous reasons because of "zero-tolerance". A few such articles have been discussed here on ATS. I also believe I can do a better job of keeping my kid interested in learning than some burned out underpaid "teacher". No disrespect, but teachers have a hard job sometimes. I completely respect that. But I myself have seen some of them get to the point where they just don't care anymore. It becomes a battle between teacher and students to get through the day. Zero-tolerance policies make it easier to just send home everyone who seems out of line - even if there were circumstances that should be taken into consideration.

Another thing: I have friends who let their kids run completely wild with little or no discipline/boundaries. They can't wait to drop their kids off in year-round school next year. That pretty much closed the deal for me. How many other parents are just looking to dump their uncontrollable kids off at school to get them out of their hair?

I may have gone on a bit of a tangent, but i guess it's not really completely off-topic. =)

I would just like to say thanks to everyone who has responded to this post. I'm so excited. This is the first thread that I've posted that has gotten significant responses, and I'm encouraged by the fact that so many of us still believe in our right to freedom of speech.

Thanks again!

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
I don't know why I'm posting to an obvious "bait" thread, but here goes....

I fought for our country, would do so again in a minute. I swore an oath to the constitution, and the country it represents. That flag is also representative of the very same nation, and all of those who sacrificed for it. Patriotic displays and rituals are a needed lesson to every person raised in this country.

It is a simple procedure.

Stand when the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE is recited, as well as the national anthem. You are, after all, making that pledge.

If not, (and don't use the under God reference, it can be omitted) and you don't want to say the pledge? Get the BLEEP out, and find a country that will hand you the same benefits and security without an oath of allegiance.

Yeah, thought so...

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the American flag. - Huey Long

Originally posted by yeti101
the patriotic thing in the states is out of hand. Its used all the time by the government & media to stifle criticism. If your anti-war they say your not supporting the troops and being unpatriotic.

its one of bill oreillys favourite weapons in any criticism of the bush government. They blur the line between patriotism for your country & support of the government. Very much how communist governments like north korea operate.

im only against the pledge becuase of the way patriotism is used by governments to push their agenda.


[edit on 13-5-2008 by yeti101]

It is also patriotic to think and to question. Your gut is not wrong. This feels wrong because it is wrong. Keep thinking questioning and posting!

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

I don't really care either way.

Lovely for the little ones to be differentiating themselves from the group mind and all that. Yay for them, even if they're not adults, and even if the Supremes have ruled that minors and attendees of public schools have limited (lessened) rights while at school; i.e., rights to privacy, etc.

And is punishing them for disobeying the rules somehow a dark plot from the Oval Office to controll the minds of young midwesterners? Hardly--the White House is focused on the next spending bill, not kids in the sticks with a punk attitude and a kewl haircut.

Despite their morbid lefty nightmares, America really isn't in danger of the takeover from within that so many liberals imagine; most nations in history (up to WWII) had some sort of loyalty ceremony on public occasions.

You know the real sign of fascist takeover? It's not when kids are punished for being louts; that is just the way of things. No, fascism comes when no one even dissents; no one questions the strong leader, no one doubts that the sacred soil of the mother/father-land is worth their blood.

A real fascist doesn't have a 30% approval rating, a la Bush. A real Fascist has a 99.99% approval rating, like Mussolini or Franco, or the early Hitler and Napoleon.

For a real fascist, people are falling all over themselves to salute and show off their political piety.

And do you know why????

Because the fearless leader can promise you safety, bread, and a job. That's why.

Nope, there's no real threat of fascist takeover, or anarchic flag-burning. It's just another day in America: everyone shouting that they alone have it right.

The only danger is when no one WANTS to dissent. When they beg for the leader's mark on their right hand or forehead. When they convert to a one-world religion that dovetails with the shiny new one-wold government.

The problem is not on days like today, when this topic draws page after page of replies. The problem comes when no one cares either way, as long as they have a job.

.

Using this definition, Germany under Hitler wasn't fascist either!

Originally posted by ldunquist
"But if they asked you right now, pledge allegiance to America, or go pledge it to another country, most likely, you would stay here."

Wow, way to not understand what America is. If America required me to pledge allegiance or go somewhere else, I wouldn't *want* to live here. America is not its flag, its not even the geophysical location on the planet politically designated the United States, its an idea. The idea that we are all equals.

What you are talking about is like singing in church the loudest so your neighbors know you love Jesus the most. Personally, I speak the loudest with my actions, not with meaningless rituals. I don't give a damn what other people think. I love America and I don't have to prove it to anybody.

Very nicely said.

Originally posted by RedmoonMWC
First, this country is not and never has been, a Democracy, it was set up as, and is supposed to be, a Constitutional Republic with a semi Democratic election process.

Second, you cannot tell me that an 8th grader has any concept about politics and protest, these kids were just being disrespectful and parrioting their parrents view at most. Most kids don't understand the meaning of the pledge or the amendments to the Constitution.

Third, The pledge and standing as the Flag passes is a sign of respect, not for our current administration, but for the constitution and what this country was founded on, if you can't show the minimum respect by standing during the pledge, then you should also remain seated when your favorite team scores. (you will notice I did not say recite the pledge)
The reason school systems have kids recite the pledge is so, over time, they will memorize it, and possibly come to know what it meens.

Richard Bernard “Red” Skelton said it best here. www.poofcat.com...

disrespect
Noun
contempt or lack of respect, or courteous regard for others.

If people actually knew what it meant and what its origins were ,it would be banned from school/

Originally posted by livingtorch
Scarlett1125, I have to disagree with your comments, "When we start allowing the government or any other person of authority tell us how we can and cannot express our disagreement, then we become something other than Americans--something other than a democracy."

School Children are not people who have reached the age of majority yet. They cannot legally sign contracts, drive a car, or drink alcohol. The kids in question were in Middle School, so they were probably not over the age of 15.

By the precepts handed down from our founding fathers, these kids are supposed to follow the instructions of their educators. When they reach the age of majority THEN they can decide if they want to snub their noses at (or spit in the faces of) all of those who have fought (and died) for their right to do so.

Unfortunately, society today does not want rules of ANY kind--unless it is to tell Christians or those scientists who believe in intelligent design (because their research leads them in that direction) to shut up.

The next logical step in the evolution of thinking society does not NEED any archaic rules is that we should turn all the criminals--including murderers and rapists -- loose, because they were just doing things that THEY felt like doing at the time.

By the precepts handed down from our founding fathers, women can't vote and we all are allowed to own slaves...

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
reply to post by C0le

 

And I respectfully say to you that you know nothing of what that pledge means to me.
That I understand that my oath is, and was. That what you are saying makes no sense, because if a communist came to this country, exercising his "rights" and then started a party that gained power, it would then eliminate your rights. Free speech is only what it is because of the sheer strength of this country. And this country IS embodied in that flag. We can sit on this fence and argue all day about that. But I believe we are already, as a society, headed down an ever widening divide on what the idea of being an American really is.

[edit on 12-5-2008 by jasonjnelson]

You really need to read this constitution. The scenario you paint is rather unlikely given the difficulty of amending/ratifying.

Originally posted by wytworm
Using this definition, Germany under Hitler wasn't fascist either!

Incorrect.

Hitler didn't seize power---the nazi were voted into office.

By overwhelming majorities. And for all the valiant stories of a person or two "standing up," it wasn't really the case. There was no armed uprising, other than before the nazis became a national power. The only armed resistance was from the communists, and their bloody tactics so alienated the populace that it actually helped the nazis.

Hitler was so popular in Bavaria that his "prison sentence" was a joke. The guards openly sympathized with him, and allowed any visitors; they even gave him privacy while he dictated Mein Kampf.

In most of the villages and towns in Germany hitler was welcomed as "God's savior for the Fatherland." After a decade of inflation, famine, crime and unemployment, people were ready for anything. And joining the Nazi party or one of its societies guaranteed you a job and cash pay, even before the nazis took power.

Same with the "New State" promised by Franco and fascist movements around Europe and worldwide.

The reason that Americans are so vulnerable is that they've been lied to--- they've been taught that fascists in Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, Hungary etc., were never popular.

On the contrary, they are more popular than any democratic movement has ever been in the US, other than Huey Long or William Jennings Bryan--- names most Americans have never heard of.

Hitler, Mussolini, et all were openly compared to Jesus Christ. Nobody's doing that for Bush.

THAT was my point.