3 Students Suspended for not Standing for Pledge

3 Students Suspended for not Standing for Pledge

www.startribune.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

This is insane. I realize that the administration has been making various moves to limit freedom of speech/expression in schools, but the child has a point. The punishment is "kind of dumb."

www.startribune.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

As you can see in the article, the ACLU is standing up for these children. Thank goodness someone is! We've told children to be silent for too long and given them little, if any, opportunity to speak their minds and think for themselves. Granted, these kids could have been sitting just to be rebellious, but the rule itself was unconstitutional. No one should be required to stand for the pledge. Children have very few opportunities to say what they think, and I applaud these children for taking the opportunity that was available to them, despite the consequences.

I don't know why I'm posting to an obvious "bait" thread, but here goes....

I fought for our country, would do so again in a minute. I swore an oath to the constitution, and the country it represents. That flag is also representative of the very same nation, and all of those who sacrificed for it. Patriotic displays and rituals are a needed lesson to every person raised in this country.

It is a simple procedure.

Stand when the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE is recited, as well as the national anthem. You are, after all, making that pledge.

If not, (and don't use the under God reference, it can be omitted) and you don't want to say the pledge? Get the BLEEP out, and find a country that will hand you the same benefits and security without an oath of allegiance.

Yeah, thought so...

Actually, this is not a "bait thread." I truly believe in the fact that what you fought for (and, I might add, what my husband and grandfather have fought for) is our right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression--along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. When we start allowing the government or any other person of authority tell us how we can and cannot express our disagreement, then we become something other than Americans--something other than a democracy. In case you didn't see my signature, that is what I believe. Personally, I stand for and say the pledge, leaving out the "under God" part. That's my personal right. It is my right to choose to say the pledge. On the other hand, I fly an upside down flag outside my home because I believe that we are in very serious trouble. Most of us realize that. How we choose to express our dissent is not something for the government to be concerned with unless we are promoting violence. I'm a pacifist by nature, but I cannot sit idly by and pretend to support a government that is bordering on tyranny. I see no reason why we should expect such blind obedience in our children either.

reply to post by scarlett1125

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The flag represents something very sacred to a lot of people. As for your freedom of speech? Sure, that is protected, by the very country whose flag, or pledge, you choose to desecrate. Movements would be so much more successful if they chose to attack the elected officials, not the troops, not the flag, and definitely not the core of our country. A pledge of allegiance is just that, a pledge to our democratic country and its ideals and principles. Those ideals include free speech, but not at the expense of desecrating a national identity.
I fully support your right to disagree with me. But if they asked you right now, pledge allegiance to America, or go pledge it to another country, most likely, you would stay here. And if one cannot say that they are pledged to the very principles that make our country what it is, they would be had pressed to have their cake, and eat it too, in most other places.
This is why I maintain my right to disrupt any protest, peaceful or otherwise, that involves the desecration of a flag. And yes, I have done that twice.
PROTEST THE GOVERNMENT< NOT YOUR OWN COUNTRY!

I respect you and the fact you served our county, but do you know what you fought for , it was for the rights of americans young and old . the constitution gives us the right to peaceful protest and free speech , and frankly im sorta proud they did what they did .its a new generation out there im 24 years old and i doubt kids from generation would have done something like that , call me when they burn the flag till then more power to them.

Bah. The flag USED to represent something very sacred to Americans.

No offense, but now the younger generations got kinda screwed in not being able to partake in such freedoms you all had in the past. We were told we still have all the same freedoms that America stands for.

It now stands for the flag raised above corrupt politicians when they proudly proclaim things like "Mission Accomplished".

And the flag that hangs outside of corporate buildings. Corporations that are screwing the people horribly.

Even as a kid, I felt STUPID doing the goddamned "pledge". Turned out, I got an excuse not to, that worked.
"Can't. I am Jehova's Witness".
You think the other kids were not jealous??

reply to post by antibush2k4

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Once again. then it's off to bed.. The flag represents Bush, AND the right to protest... Clinton and the right to assembly, etc. It stands for all of it. Rarely has this country accomplished something great without doing something sad and stupid at the same time. I would rather pledge allegiance to this flag, than to any other in the world. And this kid is just a parrot for the parents, like every 8th grader is.

It's nice to know you faught for the country and all but unless you served in the Revolution, you didnt fight for the Constitution, As no war since then has served to protect the rights ensured by it.

Third world dictatorships pose no threat to our rights, They do however pose a large threat to the rich powerful mens pockets, who run this country.




Taking an oath and understanding that oath are two different things, If you understood that oath you would respect every citizens right to choose without casting judgment on them.



What is this Nazi Germany now? Yay for the super patriots and flag wavers!



And thus another servicemen, joins the ranks of ignorance, My country hands me nothing, nor do i expect it to, My rights are born to me not given, They don't come at the cost of waving a flag or reciting a stupid pledge, The rights listed in the Constitution aren't given, The Constitution isn't a list of things we can do, Say, Own, or Believe, but a list of things that no Man, Majority or Government can take form us...

They are the rights of all men, rather or not a country respects those rights is up to its people, Your service gave me nothing that I wasn't born with, and if you believe it did then you don't understand the oath that you took.

I am proud of, and love, what I believe this country set out to be, can be, and the experiment toward that end that it has been thus far. So, while my first allegiance is to what I believe is my humanity, I am more than willing to pledge my allegiance to those things. I do not, however, believe that I should be forced to pass any sort of "loyalty test" (for lack of a better term) in the form of a contrived pledge that does not fully represent the specific color, spirit, or form that my love for and allegiance to those things takes.

I was born here. As such, I am an American citizen. I obey its laws to the best of my ability at all times, and I support what I personally believe to be its spirit and intended purpose. I love the places that exist within it, and the people who dwell in them. I try my uttmost to act in a compassionate and caring way to them, as I would anyone, and I respect the views of those who disagree with me. I make choices, as do we all, in an effort to do, say, and live what I believe is right for me personally as best I can. (That's all any of us are capable of - doing the best we can at trying to be good people.)

I do not believe that, in addition to the above, a specific pledge in the form of my speech, physical stance, or personal regard for a symbol - regardless of what it represents to others - should be required in order to justify my citizenship, or to prove that I am not what someone else subjectively or arbitrarily defines as un-American. That said, regardless of my views pertaining to the pledge to our flag, out of respect for what it means to others, I would no more desecrate said flag than I would a church, mosque, temple, shrine, or sacred circle. (Refraining is not the same as desecreation in my view.) That is a personal choice, however, and I do not force it upon others. I can only be saddened by others' choices - I refuse to judge them for them or think myself somehow better than them, because I believe that I am not.

If anyone thinks that makes me a poor American, I respect their opinion, and their right to it. Indeed, I would verbally defend their right to that view. However, their view invalidates neither my status as an American citizen, my rights to the benefits I enjoy as such a citizen, nor my own right to form and voice an opinion different from theirs.

Edited for spelling.

[edit on 5/12/2008 by AceWombat04]

reply to post by C0le

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And I respectfully say to you that you know nothing of what that pledge means to me.
That I understand that my oath is, and was. That what you are saying makes no sense, because if a communist came to this country, exercising his "rights" and then started a party that gained power, it would then eliminate your rights. Free speech is only what it is because of the sheer strength of this country. And this country IS embodied in that flag. We can sit on this fence and argue all day about that. But I believe we are already, as a society, headed down an ever widening divide on what the idea of being an American really is.

[edit on 12-5-2008 by jasonjnelson]

Sure patriotism is fading fast, maybe its because it has been shoved down our throats so ruthlessly since 911.

There is no argument here. The kids didn't want to stand for a piece of fabric. Can you blame them for maybe dissenting against a country they're growing up in that is seemingly doing just about everything wrong?

I stopped standing for the flag my senior year of highschool 5 years ago. No one had an issue with it, and believe me, they would have had a problem trying to make me. Its certainly not a statement, it was me coming to the realization that no matter how much you love that damn flag, the PEOPLE who represent it can fail miserably on global levels.

And in the end, it is just dyed cotton. I wish our actual civil liberties would be more an issue then that stupid neo-patriotism.

reply to post by AceWombat04

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You are right.
Nothing you can say, other than "I renounce my citizenship", that would make you less of an American than I.
I just think it funny, those who cling to the "good" parts of this country, and the rewards it has brought its people. Why not leave the flag, and pledge, out of it. And yes, there should be a pledge of loyalty to the constitution and its principles. Look at what new immigrants have to pledge. I guess being born here has its privileges.

What you have just said not only proves you know nothing of the oath you took, But also nothing of the pledge you defend...




The oath taken is to the CONSTITUTION of the United States not The United States, Not to this country, but the Constitution, Why is that?

Because within the Constitution aren't simply the rights of men, But as stated previously, the limits of Government, This isn't about countries, This is about rights, Rights have no borders, nor do they have flags.



Then you obviously didn't take your oath seriously.

reply to post by jasonjnelson

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SO when it comes down to it, you would rather stand with idols instead of the people you were sworn to protect?

I think it is the blind patriotism like this that may one day make good soldiers turn their arms on citizens that just couldn't deal with the S-storm anymore.

In the Democracy you fought for this may be true, But in the Republic this Country is, It is not.

Rights aren't protected by standing armies, But by ordinary people willing to defend whats theirs.

No man, No, Majority, and no Government, poses a threat to any individuals rights in the Republic established in the Constitution you took an oath to protect.




[edit on 12-5-2008 by C0le]

Careful with your words, Whats given can be taken away, The Constitution protects whats already yours.

It gives you nothing.

i agree with some of what you guys are says, but if its such a important topic for you personaly why dont you do it everyday when you wake up or do it when u get to work a pleged should be only said once,if you do it to many times it loses meaning and worth. i understand why they did it now i think back to school even i got tired of saying it .oh and to the guy who said its a sinple procedure well its not a procedure its a plegde that should only have to say once

reply to post by jasonjnelson (for some reason the "reply to" button didn't add your username so I've added it manually)

I would actually gladly (and publicly) pledge allegiance to the Constitution's principles. I would sooner pledge alliegance to the bill of rights, though, which I wish had the full force of law. I can't pledge allegiance to "the republic for which the flag stands" as a blanket statement, because that includes certain things that I don't feel any personal allegiance toward (everything from certain individuals, to certain laws with which - while I gladly obey them - I disagree, to certain elements of our domestic and foreign policy,) whether I give my allegiance to the country's founding principles and what I cherish about it or not, though.

I guess what I'm saying is that I desire more specificity with regard to what I'm pledging allegiance to, and that I don't believe refraining from doing so without that specificity makes me disloyal or un-American.

Since we're such a diverse nation, and since the principles upon which we were founded include plurality and traditions of debate and public dialogue, the very perception and definition of what "America" even means or represents is naturally going to vary at least somewhat from person to person. What you pledge allegiance to when you recite the pledge to the flag may not be the same thing the person next to you is pledging themselves to.

Edited for clarity

[edit on 5/12/2008 by AceWombat04]