3 Students Suspended for not Standing for Pledge

Originally posted by livingtorch
Wytwrm, by "The state does not grant rights. We are born with them."

Does that mean killers and rapists are born with a "RIGHT" to kill and rape?

Do drug dealers have a "RIGHT" to deal drugs to our grade school children?

Do people have a "RIGHT" to break any and all laws, leaving nothing but chaos in their wake?

What about the illegal personal income tax which was never ratified by congress in 1913? Do people have a "RIGHT" not to pay taxes?

So much for being "born with" rights.

This is not even worth responding to...Was this a joke reply?

[edit on 15-5-2008 by wytworm]

Originally posted by scarlett1125
I think you are misunderstanding the rights to which those of us here have referred...

I think, rather, that the Bill of Rights recognizes inalienable rights. It does not bestow them.

If it were true that those rights are ours by virtue of the Constitution, it would also be true that an amendment to the Constitution could take them away. I know there are those who believe this to be true. I am not one of them. We all have observed over time that through out its life as a living document the Constitution has been imperfect. It should not be considered to be a rule book as much as the best, most concrete and very necessary expression of a philosophy. Within that framework, one can make an objective consideration of how well the expression of the philosophy engenders the reality.

Bringing it back to the point at hand, regardless of whether it is currently 'legal' to use force on minors in making them recite a pledge to which they are morally opposed, it would seem obvious that it is not consistent with the philosophy that the Constitution derives from.

Originally posted by scarlett1125
have 5 children that I count as my own, and I would rather argue a point with any one of them because they are thinking than to have them follow me blindly. Blind obedience is only for the very young and the very weak. I want my children to have a spine and to be willing to stand up for what they believe. If we don't allow them to do that in any setting until they are 18, by the time they are legal adults, it is already too late.

I'm with you on that one. I think it would be a great moment for any parent to have their kid perform as well. I would consider pulling them out of the school and consider them graduated!

Well, I will say this: since the school is NOT teaching my child about his constitutional rights, I am doing their job for them. Every time he screws up and gets grounded, make him write a paper on some part of the Constitution. He hates it, but I think he will thank me for it someday.

this has been a fasinating thread.. wonderful posts on both sides of the coin.. though there were a few points i could pick apart.. but thats semantics [sic] isnt part of what imigrants pledge to is to protect america from all threats forgien and domestic.. dont know if that parts still in the new citizen pledge.. but i remember my great grandmother going over it with me when i was about 6.. she was 102..she died that year.. while i believe our schools should be teaching the words to the constution, citizen pledge, and about civil liberties. its up to or parents and elders to show us what they mean.. but the race to keep up with the joneses. and corperate greed make sure that we dont have the time to spend with our kids and they foster the pass the buck syndrome..u know, this other person is supposed to be doing this, not me.. i think where our schools fall short our parents and other family members should step in to complete the picture
so there is a more complete picture.. were kept so busy that we're losing piseces of knowldge and experience that is hard to get back.. if they can keep us arguing long enough they they can step in with here u go we're here to help, i've seen this tatic used to break up families. friends even whole communities.. does anybody remember the book!!! 1984..

sorry scarlett no offence..

reply to post by wytworm


but the neo-cons r working on taking all of that away from us and creating a corperate dictatorship

Originally posted by scorand
so there is a more complete picture.. were kept so busy that we're losing piseces of knowldge and experience that is hard to get back

I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread as much as I have. While I agree that we should pick up the slack, you're right. In a capitalist society in which we are told that it is not enough to have a roof over our heads and food on the table, but that we have to have more, more, more crap that we don't need, it becomes impossible to teach our children much beyond that. The media has kids twisted these days. This year, my son did not even acknowledge Mother's Day until my husband reminded him because he didn't have the money to buy me anything. I'm on the verge of not buying anything for any holiday just to remind them of the meaning of the holidays themselves. We've allowed the media and other sources to teach our kids that everything is about money and stuff. We have to stop or else it will never end. I'm working on it, but it's not an easy hill to climb.

thats a shame he didnt because he didnt have any money so he didnt say anything till reminded. i lost my father recently, i was planning to ask him to go fishing with me this summer but had put it off as i was waiting for some money to make sure i had everythig we needed to go.. i never got the chance to even ask.. and i regret it very much..

sorry that was kinda off topic

reply to post by scarlett1125


These kids are "kinda dumb" that's why an attempt to educate them. They definately have the right to just move to another country, and I suggest they do that if they are unhappy with this one, and the way we do things here.
wakazooka

Originally posted by wakazooka
reply to post by scarlett1125

 

These kids are "kinda dumb" that's why an attempt to educate them. They definately have the right to just move to another country, and I suggest they do that if they are unhappy with this one, and the way we do things here.
wakazooka

If you are referring to the kids who protested state coercion in the pledge case, I would suggest that the knowledge of their rights and the remedies available to them when those rights are abridged is an indicator that they are more educated than many in this thread, especially those who through an intentional attempt to misinform, or through ignorance would suggest that their only remedy is to leave the country.

[edit on 16-5-2008 by wytworm]

reply to post by jasonjnelson


You are exactly what's wrong with America. I don't care that you fought for your country or not whoopdy freaking doo. But guess what it's a free country and people have the right not to pledge their aleigance to anyone. You effing hyprocite, rather than promote a better free america all these hicks keep repeating themselves with love it or leave it. "You can just git out." "They took our jobs!!!!"

I don't care whether the kid was suspended or not if he dosn't have the decency to just stand while everyone else receits the pledge well he's trying to stand out and get attention send his disruptive arse home.
I slept through so many pledges of alleigance.

This thread is out of control! Can everyone please pause a minute and read this again. I already posted it but I want to make sure everyone who hopped in the end gets to read it.

The Supreme Court ruled it's our right to not stand for the pledge of allegiance. There for, these kids were illegally punished for practicing their right.

These kids aren't stupid, they are practicing freedom of speech. They are testing the limits of "liberty and justice for all" within the pledge itself. As it turns out however, there is NO liberty in the education system and teachers think that Supreme Court rulings don't matter because they need to bestow upon the youth their own beliefs and values.

What has communism or any of these other forms of government have to do with freedom, flag waving, doing service for our country, or pledging to uphold the constitution? NOTHING.

Capitalism=Production and distribution is privately owned and controlled. (They just want you to buy something.)

Socialism=Government regulation of a nation's economy closing the gap between rich and poor. (They just want you to buy and sell something.)

Fascism=Government in which the ruling party has complete economic control. (They will make you buy it.)

Communism=Economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party. (They don't care if you buy it, they'll get your money anyway.)

Totalitarianism=The ruling party has complete control over all aspects of a people's lives. (Buy it, or die.)

Which one of these has anything to do with FREEDOM? It's all about the money. Pledge away, it won't help you one bit. Unless you are going to pledge to free us from the goverment control our forefathers warned us about.

With uneducated soldiers protecting our 'rights and freedoms', we are screwed. He arms himself against his own people and their true freedoms, granted by birth, not government.
The US government will be MAKING you pledge soon, or else a soldier who works for them will blow your head off.
Most people are standing at Totalitarianism's door, knocking, saying, "I'm ignorant! Let me in!"

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


to a degree u r right.. however its the peoples choice to defend the constitution or to sit back and watch civil liberties go out the door... the current status quo needs to be tossed out. it just leads to personal greed and the rich staying on top.. its supposed to be by the people for the people.. but if the people do nothing then nothing is what they'll get.. these days it seems that our freedoms r up for sale... and apparently to the lowest bidder

You know jasonjnelson, if guys like you weren't so full of their own #, then America probably wouldn't be what it is today.

Serving your country is great, but blindly following everything that is spoon fed to you is idiocy and ignorance. No, I'm not making reference to the ATS slogan because I think it is abused and taken out of context.

I would just like to point out that the "love it or leave it" argument is a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy. There are not only two sides to this debate. Many of you loved your country enough to fight for it, but is the only way to fight for one's country that which is done with a gun? I think not. If you look at the writings of our forefathers, they did much more with the power of a pen than they ever did with weapons.

reply to post by blowfishdl


this is very true... but are they just doing it because they can? exersizing rights without reason will cause the the meaning behind it to be lost..

reply to post by Zealott


the reason its still a free country is because guys like him fought for it.. if they hadnt we'd be eating schitzel, sourkraut, shouting hail hitler, and if u wernt a perfect german, u'd be in a labor camp